Going Hollywood - Movies and Television from the Golden Age to Today
Will you side with the expert or the enthusiast? Film historian Tony Maietta and movie lover Brad Shreve dive into the best of cinema and TV, from Hollywood’s Golden Age to today’s biggest hits. They share insights, debate favorites, and occasionally clash—but always keep it entertaining. They’ll take you behind the scenes and in front of the camera, bringing back your favorite memories along the way.
Going Hollywood - Movies and Television from the Golden Age to Today
“The Judy Garland Show”, Part One: Rainbow High
In the fall of 1963, television audiences witnessed something extraordinary – the legendary Judy Garland starring in her very own weekly variety show on CBS. What should have been a triumphant venture and crowning achievement to an already legendary career became instead one of entertainment's most fascinating tragedies... and it was all captured forever on videotape.
With a roster of guest stars ranging from old pals Mickey Rooney and Martha Raye, to the powerhouse Ethel Merman, to a 21-year old singing sensation named Barbra Streisand, "The Judy Garland Show" is a testament to the unique magic of the greatest entertainer of her time, and our only visual documentation of the mature artist at the height of her powers singing the songs that defined her legacy. So, forget your troubles, come on, get happy, and join us for Part One of our special two-part episode on "The Judy Garland Show".
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Judy Garland Show. I don't know what makes me keep playing back on that. All kidding aside, to work with Judy again, of course, for yours truly, for me, without being corny, we've had a wonderful seven days together here. Let's do it again. This is not only tradition, this is the love of my life. My wife knows this, my wives know this. It always has been. Because there never will be. There aren't adjectives enough to express in the world how the one and only Judy is Judy Because she is the best.
Speaker 4:Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeda.
Speaker 3:And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.
Speaker 4:We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.
Speaker 3:And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.
Speaker 4:As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood. Merry Christmas, Brad.
Speaker 3:Merry Christmas. Okay, it is June, so what's going on? Merry Christmas, what's the deal? It's.
Speaker 4:Christmas for me because we are celebrating I can't even say favorite. This show means so much to me, listener, I talked Brad into talking about the Judy Garland show and the reason I said Merry Christmas and Christmas in June. Yes, it is June, but Judy Garland is June. Judy Garland was born in June. Judy Garland died in June. Judy Garland sparked Stonewall in June. June is all about Judy Garland and for me it's a Merry, merry Christmas when I get to talk about this show.
Speaker 3:And all that's true, except there is debate on the sparking stonewall issue, but that's all. I think that's going to be something that will never be resolved.
Speaker 4:You know what, Brad? I ask for so little from you. Let me have that.
Speaker 2:I don't know about that.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I will give you that Because emotionally it probably had something underneath going on.
Speaker 4:Yes, definitely, I had something underneath going on. Yes, definitely, I mean that's the legend. And speaking of legends, yes, we're talking about the one and the only Judy Garland and the Judy Garland show, which was her CBS variety show, which aired from September 29th 1963 to March 29th 1964. And I want to give a little caveat here we are doing two episodes. That's why I also said Merry Christmas, because that's a gift, because Brad doesn't like to do two episodes. He only likes to do one episode, and I get that, but sometimes he lets me do two. The reason is pretty much like when we talked about Bewitched, we just said Bewitched to me is two different series, had two different formats, two different eras. Judy Garland Show had two different formats, two different eras. Judy Garland Show had four different formats and it ran for one year.
Speaker 4:So we decided we were going to do two episodes, and I'm very excited because that way we can really get into it.
Speaker 3:And the reason I don't like two episodes audiences. Everything we can see. You guys don't mind I personally, when I listen to podcasts, I'm not wild can see. You guys don't mind, I personally, when I listen to podcasts, I'm not wild about them.
Speaker 4:That's the only reason, not that there's anything wrong with them, it's a personal thing. Well, this is so special so I appreciate it, I appreciate you talking about it and I appreciate and I'm a little nervous because when I first mentioned to Brad about the Judy Garland show, he said to me oh, I think I saw it once and she was drunk and I was like no, no, no, no, no. That is like the antithesis of the Judy Garland show. So I'm interested and a little nervous about Brad, now that Brad has watched some verifiable episodes of the Judy Garland show, what his take is and how he's going to react to this show, which means so much to me, brad.
Speaker 3:And I'm going to tell you we're not going to save it till the end. But I do want to say, regarding the Judy being drunk, we and I you and I talked it out and we think it may have been a Jack Parr episode. Yeah, yeah, I think so, cause I did search online and I couldn't find anything on it. And she Because I did search online and I couldn't find anything on it.
Speaker 4:She was a little worse for substances on one of those episodes but interestingly you mentioned the Jack Parr show. The Jack Parr show the first appearance on Jack Parr show, which we actually touched on a bit during our Wizard of Oz episode way back in our first season. Judy's appearance on the Jack Parr Show, when she was so witty and so funny and so bright and so off the cuff, was one of the catalysts for CBS wanting to do this show, because nobody ever knew that Judy Garland could talk. They knew she could sing but they didn't know she could talk. And she not only could talk, she was a brilliant raconteur and a brilliant storyteller and that's what CBS ideally was going to showcase with this series.
Speaker 3:But we all know if you know the series, that didn't go that way, yeah, so are you ready for my opinion of the show?
Speaker 4:Oh, we're not going to talk about it. Are you just going to give me the opinion of I'm probably best, because if I need to pull the plug on this podcast. I need to know right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, tony told me before we hit record that if you didn't like this show, the show is over. Um, okay, I'm going to. I'm going to give you my honest opinion and then allow me to qualify it. Okay, let me put that.
Speaker 4:Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you a quick story. A few years ago, when I had spinal fusion surgery, when I was in the hospital in recovery, my neurosurgeon came in and I told him I am known for being really good at tolerating pain. This was absolutely excruciating and he said I told you it was going to be painful. And I said no, it is impossible for you to describe how painful it is. This show was worse Really, but it has nothing to do with Judy.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 3:You know as well as I do, this show was fraught with trouble in the background and it shows, yes, it shows yes, and that is that. I think the production was awful and the directing was awful, but I can't and I wasn't wild about all the songs, but that's just a matter of taste. I can't say anything bad about Judy. I will say well, when we get into the shows I'll talk about her.
Speaker 4:No, I don't. I think that's a very fair assessment, brad, and I don't. I'm not offended by that at all. I agree with you. I am horrified is too strong a word.
Speaker 4:I get so sad when I see what CBS did to Judy Garland in this show, mostly because and what's so sad about it is it started out so well. It was such an incredible optimistic. She was so excited. She was so optimistic for this series. And then the fact that there was a bidding war, which we'll talk about. They finally got her services and then they wanted the Judy Garland they saw on the Jack Parr show, this witty, funny, off-the-cuff character, and then they prevented her from doing any of that. You're like what the hell was wrong with you people? So I get that. I feel the pain too. I feel the pain too.
Speaker 4:So when I watch this series, what I watch are the musical sequences. I watch the songs, because here's the thing, and that's why this show is kind of mythic in the Judy Garland legacy. It's the only visual documentation of Judy singing her signature songs in her later years. We have records, we have CDs, we have all kinds of recordings, but these are the visual. This is Judy at her peak and it's the only preserved body of work we have of Judy as a mature artist, not encumbered by a plot of a film or playing a part in their MGM years, or a Star is Born, and so that's what's so wonderful about this. But what began with this unprecedented excitement and anticipation ended in a real mess, and I think what you're saying is that Judy that everybody said oh Judy will never show up, oh Judy's such a mess. Judy was not at fault. Judy had the best intentions. It's what everybody else did to her, and that is what is painful to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and from what I've seen is my understanding is the only episode that she really struggled and was difficult for them to finish was the final episode and basically she was distraught because she knew what she knew the show had potential and she, she was crushed. So I understand they said it took forever to get that last episode done.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they filmed until 5. Am and they still didn't have a complete episode. She didn't understand what the fuck happened. You know, she's like you guys, you, you know, you promised me the moon and you gave me crap. You know, um, it's, it's stunning, but we're going to go into all that. We're going to go into that. I want to, I want to bring us up to date a little bit about how we got here, how we got to the premiere episode of the judy garland show. Is that? Does that work for you? Sure, okay, I just and it's really really quick, just just so we know where we're at and so we can have a context for the Judy Garland Show and Judy Garland's career. So by 1963, judy was in the second year of a phenomenal comeback. She nearly died of hepatitis in 1959, and she was actually told by her doctors that she would be a semi-invalid for the rest of her life.
Speaker 3:And I got to say I've never seen the pictures of her when she was so heavy, Maybe a long time ago. It doesn't even look like her.
Speaker 4:No, it doesn't at all. Most of that was water retention, yeah.
Speaker 3:I knew that. I learned that from realizing it was because she was so sick. But I've seen people gain weight before and whatever. That's not a big deal, but the fact that I didn't recognize her.
Speaker 4:I was like which.
Speaker 3:one of them is her.
Speaker 4:It's stunning and I couldn't believe it, I mean she's 4'11" and I think she was up to like 160 pounds. So, yeah, it was astounding. But what's more astounding, of course and it's all part of the Judy legend is the doctor said you're going to be a semi-invalid for the rest of your life. Now, allegedly Judy's reaction was whoopee. She was so damn tired, she just wanted a break. I don't blame her. And no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that ain't going to fly. That's not true at all. The woman was, if anything, she was a phoenix, and she was a phoenix. After that she did. She was actually able to make the biggest comeback of her life, mostly due to Freddie Fields and David Biegelman.
Speaker 3:Now I'm going to stop you because you said you made it sound like it was Judy's choice. As I understand it, judy was wiped out financially, not because she wasn't a big star. Everybody in her life was robbing from her right and left Continually, which I know. That part is true. So it's unbelievable when I saw the number of people that were stealing from her. So my understanding is she didn't really want to get back in. She had no choice. Was it a mix of the?
Speaker 4:two, when she was told she was in a semi-invalid, she was like, okay, I'm going to deal with this. She went to London to recuperate. And then, the first time she actually got in an airplane, she was terrified of flying. She got in an airplane, she went to London, she was in London for a couple of months and she goes. I'm feeling pretty good. Hmm, maybe I should try singing. And she did. And she look, she'd been performing since she was almost two years old. You know, that's who she was. So there's no way she's not going to perform. It's part of her. It's when she was alive and she realized, no, there's still a lot of life here. So she wanted to work. She really wanted to work.
Speaker 4:Once she was feeling good, and that's when she met these two I don't think of a good enough word to describe them these two characters, freddie Field and David Bugleman, who were two down-on-their-luck agents who soon became, because of her, the most powerful power brokers in Hollywood. Now we talked about David Bugleman briefly. Brokers in Hollywood. Now we talked about David Buegelman briefly. Do you remember that when we talked about high anxiety, remember what I said about Buegelman?
Speaker 3:I remember us talking about him. I don't remember the details.
Speaker 4:Well, buegelman was Judy referred to Buegelman and Fields as Leopold and Loeb, which gives you an idea of how they operated. Okay, she referred to them lovingly that way and later on, you know, with a good deal of rancor, because she should have, they were stealing blindly from her, but they were, they were actually, they were instrumental in getting her on her comeback. You had these two people who everybody said you said she was never going to work again and they couldn't get arrested as agents. And they found this woman who still had a great deal of life left in her and a great deal of talent, and they exploited the hell out of it. But she wanted it, she wanted to work and she did a series of concerts. She was getting stronger and stronger and it all culminated in that mythic Carnegie Hall concert in 1961. And then she did TV specials and she did a TV special with Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra in 1962, which blew the roof off of the Nielsen ratings. It actually beat Bonanza and that's something to remember because we'll come back to.
Speaker 4:Bonanza, and that's when it happened. That's when every Judy Garland in 1962, 63 was the biggest star in the world. At that point She'd come back that far, and that's when we had the idea of oh, she needs to do a weekly TV series. As I said before, people had never heard her talk, and so there was, there was a bidding war for her services.
Speaker 3:You knew that right, Yep. All three networks were bidding for the top three.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and unfortunately, as it turns out, cbs won.
Speaker 3:And not cheaply.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 3:How much I had $24 million over four years.
Speaker 4:They told her Judy was going to be a millionaire. They said you'll never have to worry about your kids, about your security. But this woman had been untethered since MGM, since she was fired from MGM in 1950. So she's like oh my God, I'll be able to buy a house, I'll be able to have security, I'll be able to send my kids to college, I will be able to support my family. It was a dream and I'd be a millionaire. It was a dream for this woman who worked her entire life, so of course she's going to be incredibly excited. So she formed King's Row Productions, which then owned this series. Now she was also married to Sid Luft. Still at this point their marriage was on its last legs and she was married to Sid Luft, so he owned part of the show too. So Judy actually owned the series when it was decided to go into production and she decided to go with CBS to make this show.
Speaker 3:And that is something I found interesting, though that part of the agreement in her payment is that she would pay for production. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:No, she had a stake in it.
Speaker 4:She really did. It's also why, when the show started to falter, there were less and less scene pieces. They reused costumes and there were sometimes it would just be two stools and a backdrop, because Judy's like this is costing me money.
Speaker 3:I'm going to save as much money as I can. I saw that they had a budget of $150,000 an episode and I thought the sets were very, very simple and I think that was good. It was a good look at that time and it certainly worked well on black and white. So I assumed, oh, it must have been everybody's salary, because she had some big time stars, as you know, on there. So I am surprised they had to cut back on the sets and that sort of thing.
Speaker 4:Well, that's when the show was faltering and she realized I got to save as much money as I can because I ain't gonna have this show in a year you know what I mean. And she was thinking she bought the house. She bought a house in rockingham and brentwood she had. The kids were in school. So she's like I gotta save as much money as I can because this show is obviously not going to be the dream I thought it was going to be and it's funny in the earlier bad episodes jerry van dyke did that whole skit where he's talking about we need to save money on the.
Speaker 3:That later became true.
Speaker 4:Oh, it was so true. Oh, jerry Van Dyke. God, it's so sad, it's so sad. So an incredible team was brought together to produce this show, most importantly a 34-year-old producer named George Slaughter, who, by the way, is still alive today. Yeah, I noticed that. It's amazing, right? And George Slaughter probably now is most famous for producing Laugh-In. And Slaughter's idea was that Judy Garland was not a performer, she was an experience. He felt she was an event and he envisioned top-of-the-line guest stars, high-class production values and basically a series of weekly specials. Now, this went against the grain of most variety shows at the time. For example, gary Moore. Cbs had a huge hit with the Gary Moore show. Cbs didn't want this weekly series of specials. They wanted a homespun type of girl next door type of show, and Judy Garland was not the girl next door.
Speaker 3:No, and this show is not the girl next door show at all.
Speaker 4:Well, in fact, judy joked about it. She said that they couldn't find the right house, let alone the right door. There was just no way you were going to. But the good thing is is that CBS let Slaughter have his head. They're like go ahead and do it, because even from the beginning they didn't think she was going to show up. They didn't think she was going to be reliable. Now why would you spend so much money to hire somebody and create this series if you don't have the confidence and the faith in them to do what you're paying them all this money to do?
Speaker 3:That's what I'm thinking as you're saying. Them Like they offered her $24 million and they had no faith in this. It's crazy Did they just have money to burn at that time.
Speaker 4:You know, why didn't you just go with NBC? I mean, that's what's so amazing to me, it's so mind boggling. It's what's so tragic and painful, as you said, when we started it, when we started, it's what's so tragic and painful is they gave her just, they undercut her, they undermined her at every possible step. Why? Well, I'll tell you why this series. There's a real kind of like a Greek tragedy feeling with this series, because we have a complete cast of real malevolent characters behind the scenes here who really, really set out to destroy this show and Judy. And I'm just going to give you a couple of them. First of all, we have Mike Dan. Mike Dan was the head of programming at CBS and we talked about him in our Mary Tyler Moore episode. He was the programming genius who wanted to place Mary after Hee Haw Do you remember when we talked about that?
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, so that gives you an idea of his taste level, right there.
Speaker 4:We have Hunt Stromberg Jr, who was a CBS executive. He was a son of a Hollywood producer and he had a pet monkey I'm not making this up. He had a pet monkey that went everywhere with him and Judy said she didn't know who to talk to him, or the monkey that went everywhere with him and Judy said she didn't know who to talk to him, or the monkey. But he had an annoying habit of calling her Judes, which she hated. He'd say, hey, judes, what's going on, judes? And so she got a nickname for Hunt too, which I don't think. You have to think too hard about what her nickname for Hunt was.
Speaker 3:It's the one word you never say, you never say.
Speaker 4:So we had Hunt Stromberg Jr. We had the insecure, egotistical and misogynistic singer Mel Torme. Now Mel Torme is a songwriter he's most famous for. Do you know what he's most famous for? Brad no.
Speaker 3:What song? No, I know Mel Torme, but I don't know what his most famous song is.
Speaker 4:He wrote the Christmas song. He wrote Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire. I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:I probably did it one time.
Speaker 4:So he's also nicknamed the Velvet Fog. Judy called him the Velvet Smog, but he wrote special material for Judy and he was fired from the Judy Garland show near the end of its run and he wrote a terrible book about the show, which was actually the first book to come out after Judy's death, which kind of put a pall over this whole series. And finally we have the most Machiavellian character of all. We have James Aubrey, who was the president of CBS and he was pretty much universally hated by everybody. He was nicknamed the Smiling Cobra and not only did he bring about the destruction of the Judy Garland show in 1969, he took over MGM and he was responsible for trashing it and selling off the back lot and all the props and turning MGM into a hotel business.
Speaker 4:This is a real reprehensible character, and these people were the ones in charge. That's what's so sad. So no wonder. No wonder she was constantly being undercut by all these people, but she didn't know that when the show was starting being undercut by all these people, but she didn't know that when the show was starting, okay, everybody was just really optimistic and excited about this first show in this brand new television series, and I could see why I mean, especially after the huge hit that her and Sinatra and Dean Martin did.
Speaker 3:I can see why everybody was like we need this woman. You not only said it'd be bonanza, my understanding was that it was their highest rated show CBS had had up to that moment. Oh my God, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that 62 special was huge and it did beat Bonanza. So CBS thought, oh great, we finally have something to counter program against, to program against Bonanza. And so they, they gave her that time slot against Bonanza for the series and at this time Bonanza was the number two rated show on television. So Judy Garland has taken on the Bonanza boys, the Ponderosa boys, in this series. But everybody had high hopes. They're like, if anybody can beat them, judy can, and unfortunately that was one of the reasons why the show didn't work.
Speaker 3:I want to run through some of the other top shows.
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3:The top 10 shows of 1963 and 1964 was Beverly Hillbillies, bonanza, dick Van Dyke, lucy, andy Griffith, petticoat Junction, danny Thomas Show, red Skelton, perry Mason and the Donna Reed Show show, and we'll get to probably more detail later. But the reason I wanted to bring that out is, of the top 10 shows, all but one of them were either sitcoms or dramas action dramas right, red skeleton is the only one that was was not so right, but you did have a lot of variety shows on the air.
Speaker 4:You had gary moore on the air you had jack benny on the air I mean ed sullivan on the air. This was the era of the variety show yes, yes, I knew, I know you know and you're going to have.
Speaker 4:If you're going to have Judy Garland, you're going to have Judy Garland, obviously, in a variety show. Um, so, it, it, it. I guess what I want to say is it began with the best of intentions, you know, but it and that's what's so tragic about this is everybody. It had such a bright beginning. Schlatter was on, and Schlatter hired a team. Edith Head was designed to do the costumes, and she had a tendency, though, to put Judy in browns and blacks. And Judy had just lost like almost 100 pounds. She looked so fantastic. She hadn't looked that good since she was at MGM, and when you see photos of the Judy Garland show, when you watch it, you're like, oh my God, she looks fantastic. Well, she was only 40.
Speaker 3:She almost looks like Courtney Cox too thin.
Speaker 4:She was only 41. I mean, that's the thing. We're like wow, she looks great. Well, she's only 41. She died at 47. She looked like she was 67. But at this point she did look good so edith head was out and they brought in a um, a designer named ray agonian, and he was hired to do the costumes. And the reason I'm bringing up ray agonian was because he brought his young assistant with him, his young assistant and boyfriend with him, and his name was robert mackie.
Speaker 3:I think I've heard of that man. You've heard that before, yeah, before.
Speaker 4:Cher. Before Carol Burnett and the curtain rod dress, Judy was wearing Bob Mackey, I think that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is pretty amazing.
Speaker 4:So, along with this incredible ensemble of people that Schlatter hired to support Judy, she needed this was also the time this was like a trope of variety shows at the time she needed the sidekick. She needed air quotes. Second banana Brad, who was her second banana.
Speaker 3:It was Jerry Van Dyke.
Speaker 4:He was the peel. Actually, he wasn't the banana, he was the peel.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I don't know much at all about Jerry Van Dyke. I remember him a little bit from the Dick Van Dyke show. He was a neighbor and then of course I loved him on Coach, but that's all I really knew of him. This was the first time I ever saw him where I thought God, he really looks just like his brother, dick.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But, oh my God, it was painful. Every time he came out it was just like it was just awful. In fact, I can't remember I didn't write down who said it. A critic said that he and Garland were like chalk and cheese.
Speaker 4:And I see that's pretty accurate. I don't even know what that means.
Speaker 3:Well, I just, I didn't either at first and I thought, well, if you ate them together they wouldn't be very good. So that's the only thing I can figure out. They were not a mix.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's okay, poor Jerry but who wrote this?
Speaker 3:Did he write his stuff or was?
Speaker 4:it written for him.
Speaker 3:No, there were writers who wrote this shit. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 4:Because he didn't even seem like his heart was in it. Well, it wasn't. He knew it was bad. You know, that's the sad thing about jerry van dyke. Jerry van dyke knew it was bad, but jerry van dyke, he couldn't do anything about it. Yeah, think about it. You know, this guy couldn't get a break. Jerry van dyke, you know you're. You're the younger brother of one of the biggest stars in the world at this time. You know? And who are you? What do you do? Well, they couldn't figure out what to do with him when the show first started. In the first series of shows, the schlatter shows he was this buffoonish character. He was kind of, you know, a dorky, goofy guy. It's not really lovable, but I mean he was at least tolerable. And then, when schlatter was fired and the second team came in, they made him this obnoxious, know-it-all character and I'm like, did you just not? Did you not watch the first five episodes of this is a completely different character, even worse.
Speaker 3:And then so yeah, and then he was gone and then he's like well, that's the sad part, because not only was he dick van dyke's younger brother, then he became infamous for for this role. I mean, the critics tore him to shreds.
Speaker 4:Well, not only that, after this he went into the notorious sitcom my mother the car oh, I forgot he starred in that.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I mean, I'm serious, this guy could not catch a break but at least it's talked about to this day as one of the worst tv shows ever.
Speaker 4:So people are still talking about it do you want that headline in your bio, in your opit?
Speaker 3:you know, I think of hallie berry when she won the raspberry award for uh uh cat woman and she walked proudly on that stage and accepted it maybe if there was one thing.
Speaker 4:But you have the judy garland show, you have my mother the car he.
Speaker 4:Finally, that's true, he finally got a break with coach, thank christ, because jesus, that poor guy, um, but. But this was the problem. You know, these writers wrote this stuff. These writers just could not find funny. They looked all over for it and they just couldn't find funny. If they'd only let judy be judy as she was on the jack par show, they wouldn't have had to worry about it, because anything that she would say spontaneously was much funnier than any of the crap they wrote for her. But they didn't trust her. I don't know why.
Speaker 3:Well, a lot of them criticized the self-deprecating humor, and I actually like self-deprecating humor. I like it when big stars sound every day and you know. But it just wasn't good.
Speaker 4:Are you talking about, when they talk about her, how she used to be fat? Are you talking about her age? Yeah, well, that was the second. That was the jewish regime, which isn't part of the first regime, but that wasn't her. Those were the writers. The writers were putting that in and it's painful to watch her be humiliated like that. That's I don't. I don't understand it. Why didn't she say no, don't, no, I don't. So it's maddening, it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking because then she would's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking Cause then she would go on and sing you know, old man river, and and blow the roof off the studio.
Speaker 3:Well, one thing I did notice that I read a review and they referred to the Bob Newhart episode and I that's what I was going to do and we talked about it and I changed it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, they talked about how the self-deprecating humor worked in that episode. Yeah, and so I watched just that skit where she and Bob were watching each other, watching themselves on TV, playing other characters and talking about how awful they were. That was funny because it was well-produced and well-directed.
Speaker 4:That was very funny. That wasn't true. That was one of the very few funny skits on this show.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:They also had new writers. This was like the fourth series of writers that I brought in. By the time they wrote that Bob Newhart skit and Bob Newhart had something to do with that too.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm sure.
Speaker 4:Bob Newhart was a brilliant comic and she loved Bob Newhart and that is a very funny skit. That's a very funny skit. So what they did was they put the Judy Garland show at a brand new iconic now. But at this time it was brand new CBS television city in studio 43, but it was a really bad, bad choice for a variety show because it had no sound again, undermining the show at every turn.
Speaker 4:The studio, the stage was too small for the orchestra and the stage was too small for the orchestra so they had to be over at the side, so she couldn't see them, she could only hear them you know what I mean. And she had to rely on the director giving her cues for when the orchestra was playing. It's madness. It's madness. Now, when I worked on the Carol Burnett show 50th Anniversary, we were in in studio 33, which is where they now film the Price is Right but where they filmed the Carol Burnett show for years and years and years. Judy's show filmed at 43, and I got to tell you that stage is so tiny, it's true, it's so tiny.
Speaker 4:You're wondering like where. Their orchestra wasn't on the set of the Carol Burnett show either. They were off in a room in the back there was. This studio was so bad, there were no dressing rooms. They literally had to airlift a trailer for judy for a dressing room and dumped it somewhere on the lot for her. I mean, that's how insane this was. But schlatter put a little garden around it and he painted a yellow brick road from the stage to the dressing room, uh, which she loved. And on the door of the trailer it was said written. It wasn't written judy garland, it was written the legend. So they tried, schlatter, tried. Schlatter was the real hero of this first series of episodes and I want I want to point that out. And so it was announced that the Judy Garland Show would premiere and the first guest was who was her first guest? Brad, one of your favorites.
Speaker 3:Mickey Rooney yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, it was a natural choice that her first guest be Mickey Rooney, because they were like family, you know. They were each other's biggest champions and they'd known each other since they were children. So it was really kind of a wonderful beginning to the series. But Judy was under a lot of pressure and I wanted to tell a very funny story that George Slaughter told about Judy in this first episode. First of all, he didn't experience this diva-like terror that everybody warned him about. He just thought she was a wonderful, funny, loving woman. And then she started to get tense and he said and then I saw it, then I saw the terror, and then I saw this monster that people had warned me about. He said. But he realized that the best way to get her out of that mood was to make her laugh, was to joke her out of it. Now Judy and this is true, this is documented Judy loved fart jokes. She loved flatulence humor.
Speaker 4:One time Mel Torme wanted to hire an impressionist and she said she didn't like impressionists. And he said why not? And? And she said they make me fart. She loved fart jokes. So slaughter rigged up this sound machine to play fart noises on a chromatic scale and it was attached to the piano. So when judy started to turn and get tense and started to get into this, you know, into this diva-like character, he turned to the piano player and he gave him a nod and the piano played over the rainbow in farts and Judy stopped and looked and fell on the floor laughing. So that's how you dealt with her. You made her laugh. I'm sure it was exhausting, but that's how you dealt with her. You made her laugh. I'm sure it was exhausting, but that's how you dealt with her.
Speaker 3:And you know it's funny. Just a quick aside, because you mentioned she didn't like Impressionists. I did see that on the list of stars you had on the show. Rich Little was one of them.
Speaker 4:She did like Rich Little.
Speaker 3:And Rich.
Speaker 4:Little was brilliant on the show oh yeah, he was brilliant all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was incredible.
Speaker 4:She did like rich little, but she didn't like this impressionist that mel torme. I think it was because it was mel torme, because by this time mel torme was really working her last nerve and she's like I can't deal with you, mel, I can't tell you female. So the filming was, the videotaping was scheduled for late june of 1963 with mickey rooney as the primary guest star, and that taping was, let me me tell you, it was an event, it was a star-studded event. In the audience, lucille Ball, jack Benny, roddy McDowell, rock Hudson, I mean, it was packed with stars. And now we're going to talk about the first episode we're going to talk about is the first episode with Mickey Rooney, which was the first episode we're going to talk about is the first episode with Mickey Rooney, but before we which was the first one filmed.
Speaker 3:Now I do want to say the seventh one filmed with Donald O'Connor was the first one aired and I kind of regret that I didn't watch that one, because I know that this show, the first episode was a hit and then the second episode dropped by 50%. So I would have liked to have seen what did the audience see that said we're not coming back.
Speaker 4:Oh well, it's a pretty mediocre episode, but yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well, I think this one was beyond mediocre. You know how I feel about Mickey Rooney. Yes, I do. I was aghast. I was like no wonder this show didn't make it. I didn't like any of the songs you know, judy's voice just makes me melt but they were. All there was. No, it was all very soft. Most of it was very soft, very similar songs throughout. And I got to admit I can't get past Mickey Rooney. I've never liked him from day one when I was a kid. I tried. You know my mom put on these old movies and I just couldn't take Mickey Rooney. So I tried to take my Mickey Rooney blinders off and I still didn't find it a very good episode, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:No, you know what. Here's the thing it's not a real episode. It's a Frankenstein episode Because, as we said, it was the first episode taped. It was taped on june 24th 1963, but it wasn't the first episode to air. It wasn't the premiere episode because by the time they, by the time schlatter was fired, the show hadn't even premiered yet they'd filmed, they've taped five episodes and the show hadn't even premiered and there was a new regime coming in. So the second regime therefore created the premiere, which is a really mediocre episode with Donald O'Connor, but this episode was the event. If you notice, in this episode there's an overture and then Judy comes out a very long overture.
Speaker 2:I love the overture.
Speaker 4:But imagine so it's an overture. It makes sense that it was the premiere episode. It was an event There'd be an overture, but this episode aired all the way in December. So people are like, why is? There an overture. We've never seen an overture before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I liked it. I did like that as well, so I was surprised it went away.
Speaker 4:Originally Judy walked on and sang a song called, so they taped. Later on they taped a new song and I'm sure the episode that you watched, as you watched the episode that was aired. She sings, I Feel, a Song Coming On which was taped months later and she looks different. That's the thing about this episode is her look changes because it's Frankenstein. One scene was shot in November, another scene was shot in January, I mean, and it's all kind of hodgepodge into this show. But what I love about this show, see, I do love the music, but when you talk about the sound, it was because of the limitations at CBS television city. Sometimes you can't hear her. You're like you got Judy Garland. Judy Garland's the last, one of the last of the big belters, as Ethel Merman says later on. You can't hear Judy Garland is the sound, and what is wrong with these people? You have this greatest singer of her generation and we can't hear her. So did you not like, when the Sun Comes Out, her first big number by herself after Mickey Rooney was introduced?
Speaker 3:To be honest, I don't remember it specifically.
Speaker 4:I love when the sun comes out. I think it's uh, she's a little nervous in the beginning of it, but I think it is one of my favorite performances of forever and she would later repeat songs later in the series because of the sound problems and this was one of the ones that she repeated and it's better this time I do remember the song now and part of the reason I don't remember is because I enjoyed the following two so much better than this episode as far as the songs go Part of it.
Speaker 3:I was distracted because it sounds like this show was not lip synced and I thought for sure it was at the beginning because and I think it's because the only video I could find of this episode had been remastered to make it sound like stereo and I thought, wow, they were lip syncing. I thought towards the end of the episode I thought maybe that's because why, and then later episodes I could tell that she wasn't lip syncing. Am I correct in that?
Speaker 4:Very interesting. You bring that up. So yes and no, okay, so I Feel a Song Coming On is lip synced.
Speaker 4:She pre-recorded it because at that time they were going to do an album of songs from the show. So in later episodes many of her opening numbers and many of her solos are pre-recorded and she's lip syncing. But this was before that. So when you see something that was shot later and then inserted in this episode, it's prerecorded, she's lip syncing but, like when the sun comes out, not lip sync, she's singing it live and you can tell um, the born of the trunk, the trunk songs at the end of the episode. We're all live.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 3:Which is one of the reasons why they're so fucking brilliant, um, but yeah, I guess at first I didn't think she had a real uh, sending share show was not filmed in front of a live audience, just small segments of it were. Parts of it were, yeah, and when I watched this show in the early parts they never showed the audience. So I thought, oh, this must be the way they did it. Even when barbara trice and nathan merman which we'll talk about later it seemed like they hardly ever showed the audience, so I actually thought this had been done the same way, I was surprised when I really learned that the audience was always there.
Speaker 4:Always there, always there. I mean, it was always a live performance, but yeah, many songs were pre-recorded. What did you? So I probably know the answer to this, but what did you think of the first time Mickey and Judy are together in the number it's You're so Right For Me. They sing, they dance, they reminisce, they look at photos, they talk and then they sing. What did you think of that little segment? Didn't like it.
Speaker 3:I thought it was one of the worst directed things I've ever seen in my life. Really why? Because?
Speaker 3:I know this is what it was supposed to look like, but it didn't work. For me it was like two friends that sat down and said let's and they were reminiscing, through their talk, their book. That episode to me was only for those that really enjoyed them in the 30s and 40s, because it I found it dull. One thing I did find in Judy at first I thought it was a sound and I don't think it was Judy was not speaking up, she could hardly be understood through much of this and I thought, okay, well, there must be a sound problem. But I noticed in each of the episodes that was a problem and it was only Judy. One of the things that made me uncomfortable was she seemed really uncomfortable. She almost seemed like she was afraid of Mickey Rooney, like he was icky, like this guy's icky, and I know they would have been together forever.
Speaker 4:But it was just very awkward to me it didn't seem natural.
Speaker 1:I didn't get that. It seemed very forced. I found what they were talking about was boring.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, it's funny that you think it was forced because it was ad-libbed.
Speaker 3:Well, it seemed forced.
Speaker 4:Here's the thing. It was ad-libbed. What the writers did was they listened to their conversations during the week and then they wrote them down. So that wonderful thing where they're looking at when they see the flower.
Speaker 4:they're looking through production photos, publicity photos from the 40s and when they were working together at mgm, and there's a photo that comes up of judy with this beautiful bouquet of roses and mickey says those are the flowers they used to give you. Uh, you know. And judy goes yeah, one flower a year for every picture a year. Yeah, a bud. And then she throws the photo. I think that's funny. I think those ad libs are very, very funny. But I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 4:She was incredibly nervous and, interestingly, yeah, that really showed of the things that one of the reasons why the format changed was because CBS showed episodes to viewer, to random viewers and one of those research groups, you know, and that's what people said. People said she seems so nervous, she seems so edgy, she touches people too much. You know stupid stuff like that. But that was a criticism of many people, which is one of the reasons why the show got into trouble, because because she was was that nervous and it's a shame she was that nervous, but you know she was nervous, she had a lot riding on this, so I personally love that skit well.
Speaker 3:I also saw that the audiences were skeptical. As much as they loved judy. The inquirer had been plastering about her drinking and her drugging. So, even even though they loved her, they were very skeptical that this show would work. I don't know.
Speaker 4:if that's true, it makes sense to me. Oh, they were very, very skeptical. She was under a microscope the likes of which she'd never been under before since MGM. So, yeah, they were expecting her to fail.
Speaker 3:So if I had watched that, I sat there and I thought is she on drugs? I mean, I honestly did.
Speaker 4:And I don she under. I mean I honestly did, and I don't mean that, no she was just nervous. I think she was just nervous. I find it charming. Okay, I find it. I. I don't have a problem with it. I find it charming. I love her ad libs. I think the thought the thing about judy is is that she would say these brilliant things, but she would often say them under her breath and so unfortunately, sometimes you lose it, like but the bud thing was definitely, but sometimes she says things which are hysterically funny.
Speaker 3:This episode I just this was painful. It was really painful and I thought what has Tony done? And everything I said about how I respect her. I think this episode I know you disagree with me I think this episode was an absolute train wreck in every way, shape and form, and I thought the following two episodes were going to be the same way. They weren't nearly as awful as this was.
Speaker 4:Okay, then we're going to skip over the Mickey and Judy movie skit scene that was after this?
Speaker 3:Oh my God. Yes, Because obviously you didn't care for that, that was shot much later she looks totally different.
Speaker 4:Okay care for that. That was shot much later. Um, she looks totally different. Okay, but I gotta go then to. I mean, the piece de resistance is the trunk sequence. I mean she sings three songs. She sings too late, now she sings who cares? And finally she finishes with old man river. Now, I saw this when I was a kid pbs aired it and after she sang old man river, I literally could not move. This is one of the most brilliant live performances ever captured on tape. Now, I agree with some of your criticisms about the bad writing in the show and the fact that she was nervous. However, this I will not budge on. This is one of the most brilliant performances on TV ever.
Speaker 3:I can't say anything bad about judy singing. I I will say sometimes I have issues with their choice of the songs, but my god, she was gorgeous. And that that's just a personal opinion. Mickey's were all songs that are reasons I did not like him. But no, she was gorgeous. I, I, I can't everything at that end.
Speaker 4:I agree it was beautiful yeah, well, the thing about the the trunk sequence is is the end of the show. It's based on Born in the Trunk. She stands at the trunk, sometimes she tells stories, sometimes she just sings, so Too Late. Now was a number that she was supposed to sing at a royal wedding, but then she got fired from a royal wedding and she said, fuck you, I'm going to sing it on my TV show. And she did from royal wedding and she said, fuck you, I'm gonna sing it on my tv show. And she didn't. She's brilliant.
Speaker 4:It's beautiful songs. Very, very quiet. Um, who cares was? It was from carnegie hall, it was just filler. But old man river, I mean. So she insisted on singing. Closing the show with old man river and cbs is like what you want to sing old man river? The only other, only one other woman had sung old man river and that was Rosemary Clooney. And she's like, yeah, I want to end the show with Old man River. And this is why it's a brilliant choice to me, because when Judy sings Old man River, it ain't about toting barges and about lifting bales, it's about life. The river is a metaphor for her life, not only life, but her life.
Speaker 4:The river is a metaphor for life, not only life but her life. So when that camera there's a camera cut, and when she says I get weary and sick of trying, I'm tired of living and scared of dying, I mean, my God, it's her life, it's personal, you know. That's why it's so impactful. And then she, when she hits those last notes and she just opens up, I go on an emotional journey with her in that and it's hard for me to come back because I'm so incredibly moved by this, by this performance. I mean, think about it. It's a tiny woman standing alone on stage in black, no scenery behind her. She doesn't even have a microphone and she reaches out to you from a 60-year-old videotape. To me personally, and I'm so moved by that performance, it gives me goosebumps every time I watch it.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, let me make you feel better here, listener, if you don't like the song Old man River, you probably aren't hearing somebody that sings it well, because it's not a very good song unless somebody knows how to sing it. But if somebody can sing it right, it's a beautiful song. And Judy did hit that out of the ballpark. Yeah, there was so much emotion in that, so much fear. I will agree with you 100%. Now you have me curious, though I'd like to hear Rosemary Clooney's version. It's not as good. I love Rosemary.
Speaker 4:Clooney, I've said before, there are certain songs where Judy gets this look on her face like she's saying to the audience I don't know what's happening here either. It's like she has no control over it. It's like this vessel, she's just a vessel for this entity that is that's coming through her and she has no control over it, and that that entity is her talent. It's just she, she. And this is one of those examples where she's like she has no control over it. She just has to let it go and, oh my god, it, it, it. You know I get chills talking about it. I just I think it's one of the greatest moments in TV history. It's worth all the mediocre crap in the rest of this episode just to have her sing old man river at the end of this episode. So CBS wanted Judy to close every episode with over the rainbow.
Speaker 3:And she said, yeah, you told me that and I'm so glad she stood her ground.
Speaker 4:She said hell, no, hell, no. She said yeah, you told me that and I'm so glad she stood her ground. She said hell, no, hell, no. She said I don't want people to lose whatever special feeling they have for Over the Rainbow. She goes I have a perfect song to close this show and that song was Maybe I'll Come Back. And it's such a great, it's a great choice, because it's a send up of her image. She's saying maybe I'll come back. You know that old, unreliable Judy, maybe I'll come back, maybe I will. And that's how the episode ends. And there was a big party after the episode. Everybody thought they had a huge, huge hit. Everybody was very optimistic.
Speaker 3:They were golden.
Speaker 4:They thought we're set. This is incredible, because it really was a very successful taping. We look back at it now and we look at these stupid jokes. I mean there were things that were cut which were even stupider than what actually aired.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank God.
Speaker 4:With Mickey Rooney and Jerry Van Dyke, but at the time everybody thought it was great. So they continued in this vein. They taped four more episodes One there's a wonderful episode with Liza, which is really beautiful. There's an episode with Lena Horne, with Tony Bennett, and then, out of the blue, cbs fires George Slaughter and his entire production team. It's like boom gone. Nobody knew it was happening and it was sudden. And it was like it was like that. You know what's that? Massacre in Dynasty, the Moldavian massacre. Suddenly, you don't have a job anymore, you're fired. And it's because CBS realized that Judy was going to start showing up. They're like, oh wait, she's really becoming reliable, she's really actually doing this.
Speaker 4:Okay, then we got to change the show and, as I said, they did the research and people were saying that she seemed too nervous, she touched people too much. So what they wanted to do is they wanted to bring her down from this pedestal that Schlatter had put her on as a legend and make her the girl next door, make her more of a run-of-the-mill variety show host. And that's what they tried to do. And they turned to Norman Jewison, who was a former TV director. He was now doing films and later on. He did In the Heat of the Night, he did Feather on the Roof, he did Moonstruck and I like Jewison, I do. He loved Judy, he adored Judy. But I don't think he was right for this show because I think he really really bought into that whole let's dumb it down thing. Let's make her ordinary. And Judy Garland was not ordinary, she was an event. That's the way I feel about the Schlatter episodes versus the Jewison episodes. What are your ideas about that?
Speaker 3:Well, there is actually one of the skits that she did with Jerry Van Dyke. I can't remember what they specifically said, but he made fun of the fact that she's supposed to be this elegant star and she was showing that she wasn't. Now, maybe that was part of that whole thing.
Speaker 4:That was part of the whole thing. That was from the second episode. That's the Jewess in regime that was bringing her down to earth.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they didn't try to just make it subtly, he just flat out said it.
Speaker 4:Oh, it's terrible. They make jokes about her weight. They make jokes, like I said, they called her a little old lady. She's 41 years old. Yeah, little old lady, what's a nice little lady like you do. This is an. This is the 35th Judy Garland the original Judy Garland, went over the rainbow years ago. I mean just stupid, stupid things, and Jerry Van Dyke's character went from a somewhat lovable buffoon to an absolute asshole yeah, an idiot. And you're like, did you not watch these? I don't, I don don't understand that.
Speaker 4:Jewison said he felt that judy shouldn't be doing a weekly show. He said she was too special, it's a mistake for her to do it anyway. But he wanted to help judy out, so he agreed to do eight episodes to get her to 13 so she could be renewed, because that was the magic number 13 and you got renewed for another 13, um. So he agreed to do it and he um went along with cbs and went along with this new format and that's the. That's the format of the next episode we are going to talk about, episode number nine, which was taped on october 4th 1963 and aired two days later on october 6th 1963. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You're so thrilling, so absolutely thrilling. I must say that we've got all your albums at home. You know, and you're so good that I, I hate you, I really hate you. You're so good, oh, julie, that's, that's so sweet of you, thank you, you know, you're so great that.
Speaker 2:I've been hating you for years. In fact, it's my ambition to be great enough to be hated by as many singers as you.
Speaker 1:That's a nice thing for you to say. I love it. Say more, oh.
Speaker 2:I love you. I love you too, but don't stop hating me. I need the confidence. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:And if you ever get a little, you know, feeling of lack of security, call me on the phone and sing a couple of notes to me and I'll give you hatred like you've never gotten.
Speaker 4:They had a certain guest star, and who was that guest star? Brad.
Speaker 3:Well, it was a 21-year-old young woman who I actually was shocked to hear she was only 21. She looked older but she looked fabulous. And that was a Miss Barbara Streisand. Talk about the gayest moment on television Barbara Streisand and Judy Garland in one show together. The only thing they could have had was Cher, and she would have been too young.
Speaker 4:Well, they had up a merman, so you're getting pretty close there. Oh, that's true, that's true. Yes, it was indeed, but there was. This is what's so funny about this episode, which is, of course, we're going to talk about this episode because it's one of the most famous episodes in TV history. Yes, who else was on the show? Everybody forgets the Smothers Brothers.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, yes, my problem with the Smothers Brothers. They did their normal skits, but they're known for being edgy, and this was a few years too early to be edgy on television, so I just-. This was before the edge, yeah, so that it didn't go over as well as I thought it should have. It was cute, but it wasn't great.
Speaker 4:Well, it's a funny thing is is that everybody forgets the Smothers Brothers were on this, because everybody's like, oh, judy and Barbara, and oh, my God, ethel Merman too. You know it's funny, it's like you know, when the sun is shining, how can you see the stars? So it's like people forget. So the Smothers Brothers can always say, hey, we were on one of the most famous TV shows in television history. And then they can say, but nobody remembers we were on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I like them in this.
Speaker 3:And here's a little funny tidbit they were good. I didn't say they were bad, but-.
Speaker 4:They're charming, they're charming, they're always charming, they're always charming. I didn't say they were bad, but I wish it was.
Speaker 3:They're charming, they're charming, they're always charming, they're always charming. My God, so young. Now they made a joke about Judy being old, but it worked for me because they look like they're 15. Well, they don't look that young, but they were very young.
Speaker 4:Well, no, tommy's hair is definitely receding.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, but I lost mine early too.
Speaker 4:Did you? No, I didn't know that. Like a year before. Yeah, so when she looks at him you can kind of tell she really liked Tommy. She was obviously with Elliot Gould at this point, but she, yeah, she has. They dated. If Barbra Streisand dates, they dated. So yes. And also Jerry Van Dyke yes, and a special appearance by the Merm. So what did you think of this episode, brad? This is under the new Norman Jewison regime.
Speaker 3:Well, if you thought I thought the first episode was bad, this one takes and I'm actually joking this was a much better episode. So you agree with CBS. Oh, they didn't like it. Well, I know, they did not want it on. They said it had something to do with Barbara Streisand. Now, I know she wasn't very well known on television. Is that why? Because she was mainly known on stage.
Speaker 4:No, I don't know. Nobody knew who she was.
Speaker 4:Some people knew who she was. What happened was she was playing she had just she's playing the Coconut Grove. It was right before she had just signed to do Funny Girl and she was really taking off. And she had played the Coconut Grove in Hollywood and Judy went to the last night of the show and I mean everybody was there. It was an event. Who is this woman, who is this girl? And she started to sing and allegedly Judy turned to the people she was there with and said I'll never open my mouth again.
Speaker 3:I mean that's how good she was there with and said I'll never open my mouth again. I mean, that's how good she was. And that clip of the duet with Barbra Streisand and Judy it's so iconic and I'd seen it a thousand times and it's just amazing. I had no idea that came from this show.
Speaker 4:Oh, really, you didn't huh.
Speaker 3:When I saw Barbra come out and she was wearing an outfit if it wasn't the same, it was similar in that duet I'm like oh, this is that show that she was on. Yeah, exactly yeah. I had no clue. It was from the Judy Garland show. Did you know? It was Judy's idea. No, I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me, because who wouldn't want to do it with Barbara Streisand?
Speaker 4:Well, actually I no, not just the duet. Putting the two songs together was Judy's idea. Oh no, that was a good move. I really liked that.
Speaker 3:It was, it was amazing, it was amazing.
Speaker 4:The story is that she was in her dressing room and she was playing Barbara's Happy Days Are here Again and she called Mel Torme in and she said listen to this. And she was playing the record and she started to sing Get Happy at a very slow tempo and that's how it all came together. And it's it is. It's one of the most amazing moments in tv when they open up at the end and they really belt it out. Oh my god, it is, it's phenomenal. It's just you're watching, you know, you're watching tv history here. It's amazing.
Speaker 3:And she was 21 years old 21, yeah yeah, I was amazed when when she said that every she's what? Because brilliant, brilliant yeah because when I knew heard it was 1963 and I thought barbara streisand, really. And then they said she was 21 years old and I said well, that makes sense. But I it was a little earlier than I thought she broke out in, in on the big screen yeah, so funny girl hadn't started yet.
Speaker 4:uh, the broadway had not. Broadway version of Funny Girl was just about to start and you know it's so funny. This was the second episode in the series to air and it was so noteworthy that the newspapers reviewed the show twice.
Speaker 4:They had to review it again because everybody was talking about this episode, about this girl, this girl who showed up for rehearsal and nobody knew who she was and she was in a sundress and sandals and stringy hair and then she opened her mouth and people were gobsmacked, as the Brits say, uh, listening to this, listening to this girl sing, so it's a wonderful. It's a wonderful episode Again. The jokes, the humor they just couldn't find funny. It's just bad, bad humor. Making fun of judy is not funny, but the music uplifts it. Barbara singing an incredible version of bewitched, bothered and bewildered, which she never sang as beautifully before or since I mean it's pure, it's, oh my god, it's beautiful.
Speaker 4:and then singing that happy days, get happy with judy, just you know it's a gay iconic moment, it really is.
Speaker 3:It really is, and this episode emphasizes to me why this show failed. And we'll get to that. But it's not because this is a bad episode. When I mentioned to you that I'm not a fan of Ethel Merman, but I am a fan of Ethel Merman, you said, oh good, this is going to make it interesting. And watching this made me realize I love Ethel Merman, her comedy. I love her when she plays a role. I've never been a fan of her singing and when she's by herself, I probably still am not a fan.
Speaker 3:I really enjoyed her music, both in this one and, I will say, in the next one as well, but she just they joke. Both in this episode and the other episode where she's a star, they joke about her belting it out, and that's what I really don't like. I wish I could remember. There's a song that was on the radio the other day and I told her I just don't like this song. It's a hit song, but all they're doing is yelling and that's why I feel about Ethel Merman. I know the others will disagree with me. She's just not a type of music that I really enjoy.
Speaker 4:I don't disagree with you at all. I think she does.
Speaker 3:That's Ethel Merman, but I think she could be hysterical. There was a Lucy episode that I loved her in.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the reasons, ethel was quote in the studio audience. So there's a surprise visit from Ethel Merman when Barbara and Judy are talking and then suddenly Ethel starts singing from the audience. It's because and then suddenly Ethel starts singing from the audience is because Ethel Lucy was trying to get a.
Speaker 2:TV show for Ethel.
Speaker 4:They were good friends. She appeared on the Lucy show and she's trying to get Ethel to do a. She was trying to get a sitcom going for Ethel but it never flew, so that's why Ethel was in Hollywood at this time. It's kind of funny how it all comes together.
Speaker 3:But yes, Ethel, no, an Ethel sitcom would have been good.
Speaker 4:I think Nobody bought it. It was called Maggie Flynn and nobody bought it. So anyway, she went back to Broadway, but yeah. So Ethel joins them in an impromptu version of, as Judy says, another brilliant line Adlib. Why don't we sing something we're all famous for? They sing. There's no Business Like Show Business. And for the first and only time in her life, you cannot hear barbara streisand. You just can't.
Speaker 4:the only time she would ever not hear streisand was these two other powerhouse belters singing next, barbara probably wishes that was burned well, barbara hates that, hates that she's talked, she talks about in her book she's first of all, she hates the song there's no business like show Show Business.
Speaker 4:And she's thinking what am I doing up here? I mean, she loved Judy, don't get me wrong. But she thought the whole thing was cheesy and she did not like it. But you know there was no competition between these two women. Judy viewed Barbara as a great, great new talent and Judy viewed it as it made her better. She was not competitive, you know. It's like they say about tennis. You know you want to improve your game, you play with a better player.
Speaker 4:Mort Lindsay, who was the musical conductor on the Judy Garland show, said Judy never sang better than when she was a Streisand because she was inspired. She knew she had to raise her game and for her part, barbara said that she was so touched by how generous Judy was to her. She said she reached out to me and she was shaking and she said I thought at the time she's Judy Garland, why is she nervous? And she said I thought at the time she's Judy Garland, why is she nervous? And she said. And then later, as I got older, I realized why she was nervous. You know you have everything to lose and Streisand was 21. She had nothing to lose.
Speaker 3:I can imagine 21 years old and Judy Garland reaches out to you and says I want you on my show.
Speaker 4:Can you imagine? I mean you're 21. That's amazing. But Barbara, being Barbara, knew she could do it.
Speaker 3:And you could definitely tell throughout the whole episode that they had such a huge respect for each other.
Speaker 4:Yes, barbara said that Judy's vulnerability touched her very deeply for the rest of her life and she never forgot it. And actually, after the show aired, they met at a party a couple years later and judy took her aside. And this was after funny girl had become a huge success and she started doing her tv specials and she said to barbara she said, don't let them do to you what they did to me, which I think is like wow, isn't that amazing? I just this whole, this whole episode, the. The episode is bad, yes, it's bad, but having Streisand and Garland together, and not just in the gay world but in the entertainment world, is one of the greatest, greatest moments ever captured on film, right up there with Old man River.
Speaker 3:Yes, Now do you want? To hear why I think this show is a good example why this entire show failed. You keep referring to this as a variety show and I don't see it as a variety show. I see this as a. I see every episode that I watch as a Judy Garland and guest concert.
Speaker 3:And now people may think that's a wonderful thing, but here's the thing I want to talk about, my favorite band. But before I mention my favorite band, I want to qualify this for people. When I'm doing things around the house or whatever, I'm either listening to podcasts or I'm listening to classical music, or I'm listening to jazz or I'm listening to opera. I love music across the board. I can't think of a single type of music I don't like, except for old time country western music, but even country music.
Speaker 3:One of my favorite nights was at a honky-tonk in the middle of nowhere in in Nebraska, because it was just beautiful music. So, that having been said, my favorite band is Nirvana. I am a Nirvana fanatic, but do I want to watch a Nirvana concert every single week? And the answer is no. I would have liked to have seen more skits, like the Bob Newhart and Judy skit. I would have liked to have seen that more breaking things up. And it was just one after another song, song, song, which was not what I expected and I personally didn't enjoy it. It's just, I wanted more skits.
Speaker 4:So you would agree with Norman Jewison in the fact that Judy never should have done a weekly show, because it was just I agree 100%. She was too special. She was not made for a weekly show. She was not made for it.
Speaker 3:yeah, when you said that I was saving it because I'm glad you brought that back up, when you said that, that was my very first thought I thought, wow, I agree with him 100%. She is not a once a week thing.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, she's an event, she was an event and the experience of her is something that you know. You get in small doses. That's why when I watch the show now I just watch those segments that I love. I skip over the stupid ones. I go to old man river. I go to happy days get here, get happy. Um, I go to hooray for love their duet. They do in the gingham uh shirt. They do with that stupid when jerry van dyke takes away all the scenery because he says they have no money. It's so stupid. But then they start singing and you forget it. You know you forget about it and, um, you see them working together and how they something that doesn't happen with ethel merman, which we'll get to in our next episode, when we talk about the ethel merman duet. You see them reacting to each other, you see them affecting each other. Judy makes Barbara sigh at one point and Barbara makes Judy laugh. I mean they're they're interacting, they're connecting. It's so wonderful how they react together and it's real magic.
Speaker 4:Those are the episodes you want. Those are the scenes you want to see. I don't need to see a stupid scene about Jerry Van Dyke and a stuffed bear and Mickey Rooney. I don't want to see cats. It's terrible. It's terrible. But the music, but it's a lot. It's a lot to take and I've given you an assignment to watch these episodes, one after the other, so you know, it's a lot and uh.
Speaker 3:One thing I really enjoyed is I love it when you watch the star. Who knows they are hitting the mark yeah and you could see that with this oh, yeah, and I just I just love that. And even even at the moment, the three of them just knew this is going well. This is going well, it's a magic moment.
Speaker 4:It really is a magic moment when the three of them, even though barbara didn't like it, barbara didn't like being called the new belter. I mean, she's 21 years old, you know, she, she, you, she had a different idea, she played along with it well.
Speaker 4:She did. Well, she did yeah, because she wasn't stupid. But you know what's something interesting? First of all, she was nominated for an Emmy for this appearance and Judy was also nominated for an Emmy, so they were competing with each other. And after she did this guest shot, marty Ehrlichman, barbara's manager, said you'll never do another guest spot again, that's it. You can't top this. And he was right. How are you going to top? Bewitched, bothered and Bewildered? How are you going to top Get Happy, happy Days? You can't. Yeah, it was brilliant. So you know the second episode out really amazing. I really feel this is the best of the Norman Jewison episodes. He did eight and then he gone. He kept his word. The show got renewed for a second run of 13 but he was out of there and we come to the third format. But we're going to have to wait until our next episode to talk about the third and fourth formats of the Judy Garland Show and a couple more episodes to round us out.
Speaker 3:And I look forward to those. Do you? I look forward to, yes, I do. I look forward to talking about the third episode. I'm looking forward to talking about the third episode. It's not the episode that I wanted to watch, but I look forward to talking about it.
Speaker 4:So we leave you, listener, in October of 1963, when Barbara Streisand just made her appearance on the Judy Garland Show. Brad, before we go, is there anything else you want to say about the series or about the podcast?
Speaker 3:I think everything I said about the series is done for now, until we do the next episode. You can just see I had a love-hate relationship with this film, and mostly hate, and it's just because the production was just awful. Nothing to do with anybody there, but I do have something to say to the listener. If this is your first or second time listening, we're not going to ask much of you, but subscribe. We hope you subscribe and check out some of our previous episodes and listen to us in the future. If you are listening again and again and again and you're listening up to the end, you like one of us or both of us, so why don't you go ahead and leave us a review? Apple and Spotify make it really easy. Other formats do as well, but they're the two biggest. Leave us a review and tell everybody how much you enjoy our show, so that they can find the show as well.
Speaker 4:I think that's a great idea. Well, brad, I guess for this episode there's only one thing left to say, but I don't want to say it.
Speaker 3:So let's not say goodbye, let's say au revoir, and this time I'm going to give it to you because we will be back.
Speaker 4:Oh, maybe we will come back to you. Bye everybody, Maybe Bye.
Speaker 3:That's all folks.
