Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to going Hollywood. 
You know, Brad, I think, I think it's kind of funny that for our unofficial Halloween episode, if all goes well, this will drop before Halloween. We are doing another film in which the protagonist has a freaking existential crisis. However, I think this existential crisis in the film we're talking about today is a lot more severe than the one that Tyrone Power went through in The Razor's Edge. What do you think?

Brad Shreve:
I also noticed that it's another film that we're doing where it's beloved today, unlike when it came out.

Tony Maietta:
That's true. That seems to be another through line of some of our episodes lately. What's up with that? Yeah, it's true.

Brad Shreve:
I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
Very much, I mean, almost vilified at the time it came out. And now it truly is looked at. In fact, John Frankenheimer, who directed this, I think it's a masterpiece, who directed this masterpiece said the film went from disaster to classic without ever stopping at successful. It just went right from disaster to classic. Couldn't enjoy, uh, success at any point in that. So we are indeed talking about Seconds, directed by John Frankenheimer from Paramount Pictures in 1966, starring the one, the only, Mr. Rock Hudson. This is our first Rock, our first film with Rock.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, you're right.

Tony Maietta:
I'm so happy about that, and I'm glad it's this one.

Brad Shreve:
And for those of you that haven't seen it, this movie is a horror film remake of Damn Yankees.

Tony Maietta:
Kind of, yeah. I never thought about it that way. With, with what much different songs though. I don't think there's no songs in this.

Brad Shreve:
Nobody burst into song.

Tony Maietta:
The only time they burst into song is in that Bacchanal in Santa Barbara. That's the only musical sequence of this. That's so funny. It's about— it kind of is about a man selling his soul to the devil, metaphorically speaking.

Brad Shreve:
It hit me when I said— when he went back to see his wife, I'm like, we're watching Damn Yankees.

Tony Maietta:
It also could be subtitled— I thought of it as subtitled as Extreme Makeover Nightmare Edition, because that's what we have here. I mean, remember, it's so funny. Well, we'll get into that, how prescient the film was. I remember the first time I saw this movie, my mind was just blown by so many things. Not the least of which is the incredible performance of Rock Hudson, which the fact that he wasn't nominated for an Oscar for this is just because the film was such a, such a bomb.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I think that doesn't surprise me.

Tony Maietta:
I think it is his career-capping performance. He was only nominated for one Oscar in his career, and that was for Giant. And he definitely deserved, in my opinion, he definitely deserved an Oscar for this performance. He is so many things in this movie that you don't expect of Rock Hudson. And that's the brilliant thing about it. That's what's— casting him in this is so brilliant. That's what I love about this, his performance.

Brad Shreve:
He did well. And you know, it was really funny to watch the movie. I timed it and I'm almost certain I have the time right. I'm going by memory. I didn't write it down. It's rare to have a film where the star doesn't show up until 40 minutes into the film.

Tony Maietta:
Right? Yeah, that's something, isn't it? Isn't it?

Brad Shreve:
I'm like, I kept looking. I'm like, okay, when he's— once I realized it's gonna be a while, I'm like, I'm gonna have to pause it when it— when he pops in.

Tony Maietta:
When he comes up.

Brad Shreve:
So I can see when he shows up. And it was the 40-minute— right at the 40-minute mark.

Tony Maietta:
So we're talking about Seconds since we've been kind of talking around it and kind of giving like little hints about how horrific it is. Do you want to talk about it? You want to tell the people a little bit about the movie and And of course, besides Mr. Rock Hudson, who's in this film?

Brad Shreve:
This film is about a man who could be any of us. He feels like his life really has gone nowhere. His dreams are unfulfilled. He doesn't know what his dreams were, but he knows this wasn't it. He's just kind of lifeless, almost as lifeless as the meat factory he goes to. Oh,

Tony Maietta:
God, that scene. That scene. Well, he's having basically a midlife crisis. Yes. He bought everything that society sold him, that if you did this, this, and this, you'd be happy for the rest of your life. And so he's 51, I think, which I'm like, okay, he's 51 and he feels his life is just a big void, empty void, even though he's very successful, has a beautiful home, beautiful wife, grown daughter, granddaughter. He feels his life is basically There's no joy in it. And he is very, very depressed.

Brad Shreve:
And something we can all relate to at one point, or we've all questioned, like, what am I doing? And so he kind of falls into this opportunity willingly and forced at the same time to be reconstructed and get a whole new look. You know, if you're going to pick somebody, Rock Hudson ain't a bad choice.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, you might. Well, doesn't what's-his-name, Richard Anderson, who plays the doctor say, you're my best work. Richard Anderson, who was on The Bionic Woman and Six Million Dollar Man. He was Oscar— Oscar, I almost said Oscar Madison. He was Oscar, I can't remember his last name. And it's kind of funny, he played Oscar in The Bionic Woman and Six Million Dollar Man, and in this film he plays a doctor who transforms John Randolph into Rock Hudson. I just think that was funny, that little— that was a funny thing.

Brad Shreve:
The most openly evil character to me in the film, but openly evil. But because he's just not a nice guy from the beginning. So anyway, he has this opportunity to change his look. He is set up with a whole new life. And it comes down to, is what we do and what we look like, is that really all we are? Careful what the moral of the film is. Be careful what you ask for.

Tony Maietta:
Careful what you wish for. That's it. That's pretty much the thing about this movie. That's the moral. Oscar Goldman, That's who he played on. So just so people—

Brad Shreve:
There you go. Thank you.

Tony Maietta:
People had an idea of who he was. Yes. His new life, his new identity, his better self turns out to be just as empty and unfulfilling as his original life was. And so he tries to get it done again so he can do it right this time. And of course, that's where the, the really horrific ending comes in and the fact that that's not gonna happen. No, they're not gonna give him a second, second chance. He is basically toast. He's basically roadkill.

Tony Maietta:
He's going to become the cadaver. When they give these people new identities, they need to have a cadaver to represent, to present as the person whose life's being changed. So he's on his way to the operating room to become basically a cadaver for the next person to have their second. So it's a really, I mean, it's obviously incredibly complex. And I mean, it blends psychological horror, it has science fiction, it's got film noir in it. all kinds of social commentary. I think what amazes me is the fact that, as I said, this was part of John Frankenheimer's trilogy. Did you know? You knew this, I'm sure, because you're a big Frankenheimer fan.

Tony Maietta:
His Paranoia Trilogy. It was The Manchurian Candidate, Seven Days in May, and then this film. Did you know that?

Brad Shreve:
I did.

Tony Maietta:
I figured you did.

Brad Shreve:
We'll have to go into Frankenheimer later because I need to do the cast, but You know, he had such a great career in the '60s. And then I gotta say, to me, other than some exceptions, once he hits the '70s, it really went in the skids, in my opinion. But we'll get to that later.

Tony Maietta:
He is such a forward-thinking director. He was so ahead of his time in so many ways. Think about The Manchurian Candidate. We talked about it last year. Oh my God, how ahead of its time was that? What's amazing to me about Seconds And we'll talk about what exactly the word seconds means, but it's the whole theme about the better self. And I just want everybody to think about what was on TV, what was big on TV, say, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. Shows like Extreme Makeover, things like The Biggest Loser, things like The Swan, where people were actually taking drastic measures to reinvent themselves. And I also want people to think about What do we all do on Instagram every day? What do we all do on Facebook, if you're still on Facebook, every day but present the better self? And it ends up being just as fricking empty as the life you're thinking you're presenting to someone is just as empty as the life that you're living.

Tony Maietta:
It's so— it was so ahead of its time. It's almost— it's freaky. It freaks me out how much ahead of its time this film is.

Brad Shreve:
It's almost like nothing's changed.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it's so true.

Brad Shreve:
We've learned so little. We've learned so little. And it is ahead of its time because it's much more emphasized today.

Tony Maietta:
It is much more emphasized. And we've fallen into that trap. We've fallen into the dream. What happens with Arthur Hamilton, the character, is, as I said, he bought the dream. He bought the American dream. He bought everything they were selling him and it ended up empty. So he thinks, I have to change. I have to look outside myself for comfort, for sustenance.

Tony Maietta:
He doesn't realize that, no, the problem is that you bought this dream and you're not— you're looking outside yourself. Look at what you have already. You know, everything I wanted, it's like The Wizard of Oz. Everything you want's in your own backyard. Anyway, I'm going way off. So let's talk about this cast and I'm gonna turn it over to you. So I'm gonna stop babbling, but I just— is how excited I am about talking about this film.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, well, our main character, Rock Hudson, he is known by the name of Tony Wilson. But before he is Tony Wilson, the artist in Malibu, well, he is Arthur Hamilton, played by John Randolph. And I can't remember where Arthur lived, if they ever said. It's a suburban—

Tony Maietta:
Scarsdale. Scarsdale.

Brad Shreve:
Scarsdale. Yes, there you go.

Tony Maietta:
Could you get more upper middle class East Coast New York than Scarsdale? Forgot. You can almost hear them talking like this. Scarsdale. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Now, John Randolph is one of those, you won't know his name, you'll know his face. He's been in a lot of things. This was his comeback, which I'm sure you'll get into more. He was blacklisted and this was his comeback after that.

Tony Maietta:
Correct.

Brad Shreve:
Then we have Salome Jens, another— she's been in a ton of stuff. She plays Emily, who is kind of a very short-lived— I don't want to say a love interest, but more of a fling interest. free spirit that Tony Wilson thinks he wants to be, or John Arthur Hamilton. Who are we going to call him? We're going to call him Arthur or Tony, or what are we going to call him?

Tony Maietta:
I think we should call him Rock.

Brad Shreve:
Rock. Okay. That's the easiest way. He, yes.

Tony Maietta:
And I, you know what, Salome, Salome, Jens, Jens. I'm like, come on. So I think we should just call her Norm, Nora. If we can just call her Nora and not even try to say Salome or Salome or, because I've heard Salome, I've heard Salome, I've heard Jens, I've heard Jens. She's a wonderful actress. Let's leave it at that.

Brad Shreve:
I don't even know what I said. What did I call her?

Tony Maietta:
You called her Salome or Salome.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, did I?

Tony Maietta:
Okay. It's, who knows? It depends on where you are at the time. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And then we have an actor who beloved and so well known, and I didn't even recognize the man, which is Will Gere, who's only known by the old man.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
He is the guy that is running the show. Come, he's just this kindly older man who ain't so kindly when all is said and done.

Tony Maietta:
Tell the people who Will— how they would know Will Gere.

Brad Shreve:
Will Gere is most famous for Grandpa Walton on The Waltons.

Tony Maietta:
He's Grandpa Walton!

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, he ain't Grandpa Walton in this film.

Tony Maietta:
No, but boy, that persona plays in, you know, he's the one, he's the kindly old Southern gentleman.

Brad Shreve:
He is the kind man.

Tony Maietta:
He's like your grandfather. And he's talking, he's talking Rock, or at that time, John Randolph, into this whole thing. He owns, or he at least is the head of the company. That's what the institution is called. It's called the company that does all this stuff, that gives you a new identity. He founded it.

Brad Shreve:
Something interesting, you mentioned John Randolph only being 51 in this film, or at least playing a character who's 51.

Tony Maietta:
The character.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, the character's 51. You know, Will Geer, he's an older man, but he was only— he was born in 1902, so that would have been 64. He looks in his mid-80s. People were older back then.

Tony Maietta:
People looked much older.

Brad Shreve:
They were just older back then. And then you mentioned Richard Anderson, Dr. Ennis. Probably his first big film was Forbidden Planet. We all know him most from The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman. And then we had, uh, Jeff Corey as Davidson. He was the guy that kind of ran the show for the most part until the old man came in. He is really more of a businessman character.

Brad Shreve:
Then we have Murray Hamilton, who everybody will notice Murray Hamilton. Most famous probably for being the sheriff in Jaws.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
But you have seen him in a million things.

Tony Maietta:
No, absolutely. Um, and interesting. Okay, I just have to do it. Richard Anderson, Oscar Goldman, we're going to make you better than you were before.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, very good point.

Tony Maietta:
Better, stronger, faster. Oh my God. It's the same thing. Isn't that funny?

Brad Shreve:
You are correct. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I just get— that just tickles me that Oscar Goldman, it just makes that, that Richard Anderson's in this film. Anyway, a lot of these people, you mentioned John Randolph, Blacklist. Jeff Corey, also Blacklist. Will Gere, Blacklist. He was— Frankenheimer was giving a lot of people their first break after the horror of the Blacklist and what happened with the Blacklist. And if you don't know what the Blacklist is, people, we're not gonna tell you right now. We did an episode on it in our first season on Fellow Travelers with Ron Nicewander. So go listen to that.

Tony Maietta:
We talk all about the Blacklist. That's what's really amazing. And the blacklist also gives this, as so many things, gives this movie another layer. Having these actors who were part of the blacklist, it gives it another— just like some other things I want to talk about— give this film like a level of meta, which I think also makes it incredibly potent as a film. Don't you think so?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
What I think what's amazing about Frankenheimer using these blacklisted actors is because it— this is a film about individuals being erased or controlled.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Or assigned new identities. And it featured actors whose own careers had been disrupted, had been erased, had been stopped by political persecution. So it's just, it's just an interesting parallel. I think. To me, though, the most interesting parallel and the most interesting, the most fascinating thing about this film— Brad just went through the cast— is our star, Rock Hudson. It's insane. Okay. Because Rock Hudson was not the first choice to play this part.

Tony Maietta:
But Rock Hudson is so freaking perfect for this role. The irony of casting a star whose career depended upon an idealized public image Playing a man who discovers that an idealized identity can become a prison. Now, we all know the truth about Rock Hudson. Does that not just astound you? This is so meta, I can't take it. I have to sit down. Okay, I'm sitting down.

Brad Shreve:
I did fail to mention one other cast member in this film, and I have to say it. For all those like myself that were huge Days of Our Lives fans.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Frances Reed Horton. Oh, my God. I can't believe I can't remember her name. Alice Horton herself.

Tony Maietta:
Alice Horton.

Brad Shreve:
For over 40 years, which she started the year that, the year that this film was filmed in 1965. And she played that role until the 2000s. Alice Horton. And she looked beautiful.

Tony Maietta:
She's beautiful. She gives a beautiful performance. She's so—

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
She's just a lovely, lovely actress, and she gives a lovely performance. She plays Arthur Hamilton's wife, i.e., John Randolph's wife. And when Rock has now become, you know, when his character has been changed into Rock Hudson, he comes back at a certain point and goes and visits her. And it's just a devastating scene. Doesn't she say something along the lines of, I just remember him being silent? Or, I just remember him— he's asking, what was he like to live with? And she's like, I don't know. This is his wife.

Brad Shreve:
Even worse was he didn't die in the fire. He was dead long before that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I mean, it's just like she just remembers the silence and the look on Rock Hudson's face. And you're just like, just, it's gut-wrenching. So the word Seconds, the title Seconds refers to people given second lives. Uh-huh. But it also suggests something recycled. You know, it's a second, something secondhand, secondhand Rose. We could call this movie, AKA Secondhand Rose, Secondhand Rock.

Tony Maietta:
I love when I crack myself up. Seconds, a.k.a. secondhand rock. That might have to be the title of this episode, Brad.

Brad Shreve:
I'm glad you entertain yourself so well.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, God. Thank God I entertain myself because Jesus. Anyway, as we said, it was the 3rd in Frankenheimer's trilogy, Paranoia Trilogy. Based on a 1963 novel by American writer David Ely. And when Frankenheimer got a hold of this and realized that he wanted to adapt it into a film, do you know who— all right, there were 2 choices before Rock came on. And who do you know who one of those choices were? You know both of them, tell me. But do you have any idea who the choices were?

Brad Shreve:
I know both of them, because if I'm correct, Kirk Douglas actually, his production actually acquired the rights to this film.

Tony Maietta:
Correct. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And then when that— I don't know what the whole story is, why that fell through. But then the studio turned down Laurence Olivier because they said he wouldn't be a box office draw.

Tony Maietta:
Sorry, Sir Laurence, you're not good enough for this film. Can you imagine? We all get rejected, folks. Even Laurence Olivier. Yes, Kirk was originally slated to do it, but Spartacus had left the building.

Brad Shreve:
Ah.

Tony Maietta:
His scheduling just wouldn't work out. He just couldn't make it work. So Frankenheimer really got excited about Laurence Olivier, because Frankenheimer's original idea was to have the same actor play both parts, play Arthur Hamilton, and then after the surgery, play Tony Wilson. And he thought, there's no other— the only actor in the world who can do that is Sir Laurence Olivier. I think there could have been another actor who could do it, but he wanted Olivier, and Olivier was on board. He was very excited. But you're absolutely right. Paramount went, uh-uh, no, not a big enough box office name.

Tony Maietta:
You're just like, holy shit. But I think this is a case where the worst best thing happened. Because as I said before, Paramount said, we'll give you Rock Hudson. And Frankenheimer's like, Rock? Because at this point, even though he'd been nominated for an Oscar for Giant, and he had done those movies in the '50s, Magnificent Obsession, things like that, very dramatic, Written on the Wind. Rock was a big, big star after the Doris Day films. This was right after his Doris Day run. You know, he was basically known as a light romantic comic actor. And people didn't think he could pull this off.

Tony Maietta:
But in my opinion, I gotta stop saying that because everything, everything I say is my opinion. Okay.

Brad Shreve:
There you go.

Tony Maietta:
That's what this show is about. But He, to my— as I said before, he did a kick-ass job in this. I just think he's, for all those reasons we said, he's brilliant casting, uh, the, the double life thing that we know with Rock, the whole meta, uh, layer that he brings to this. He's also so damn good. He's so moving and touching. And what did you think about his performance?

Brad Shreve:
I thought it was incredible. I don't think too much of the hidden identity in Hollywood. I think that's a fascinating aspect of the film, but I don't think of it in terms of the film because it's not like that was an unknown thing going on.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But he was perfect for the role. You could feel the devastation in his soul just from the look on his face at all times, but not overplayed.

Tony Maietta:
I think at this time, I'm almost positive Rock was 39 or 40. I mean, he was just getting to the cusp of his— the end of his leading man era. And he was just jonesing. for this meal of this kind of a juicy part. And he just digs into it. The final scene where he is being wheeled to his death, basically strapped down in the gurney, and he's on his way to see Oscar Goldman to basically put a drill through his brain. He is— I mean, that's how you would behave if you were new, if you knew you were on your way to your death. It is so— it is so disturbing and so startling.

Tony Maietta:
And that's one of the things that I think, among many million other things that we can talk about, gives this film such heft and gives this film such a— it's such a punch. Because he's so— you believe him every single second. Haha! Every single second in this film, you believe Rock Hudson.

Brad Shreve:
Well, it just kind of bookends it because this film, it's so uncomfortable to watch from the very first— I almost, I'm like, I wanna turn this off. Not because it was bad, but because it was so uncomfortable.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
The whole, even just the credits. When you're watching the credits, you're like, oh, this is— you don't know what to expect, but it's like really uncomfortable. And then the whole, the train station scene. I don't know if it was Grand Central.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it was.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. Grand Central Station. It just, and then to end it with this horrific ending, it's exhausting.

Tony Maietta:
It is. Well, let's, let's talk about why, why it was uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable because I heard one critic say this film is shot like a nervous breakdown. And it was, it was. The cinematographer is the legendary James Wong Howe, who had been, who had been shooting films since the silent era. One of the greatest, greatest cinematographers ever. And he and Frankenheimer decided they were going to develop this aggressive subjective style to put viewers inside Arthur Hamilton's world. We are inside his mind.

Tony Maietta:
That scene in Grand Central Station is so disturbing because what James Wong Howe did was strap a camera to the back of John Randolph. And as he's walking, that's our view. That's our perspective. But it's so jarring and it's so jolting. And then there's also shots of him which are like straight up his nostrils. It is the most— and that's all on purpose because, again, the visual approach is showing us what's going on in John— did I say we were calling him John Hamilton? Anyway, it's what's going on in his mind, in John Randolph's mind. And that is being incredibly illustrated by James Wong Howe and Frankenheimer. That's why it's so disturbing to watch.

Tony Maietta:
All these shots though, the perspective, you know, there's some handheld stuff. There's some static stuff, but it's all, it's all in there to affect you, to make you just as uncomfortable as you were, Brad. Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
It did its job. It did exactly— I hated it and I knew the whole time it was doing exactly what it was supposed to do. So I didn't hate it in a negative way, but boy, I felt uncomfortable. The other thing that they did beautifully, you know, you think of noir, which has all the shadows stuff, which makes it kind of a little unnerving of its own. And this film used an entirely opposite type of lighting, which is the full set illumination.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Where everything is lit. And it made it equally disturbing because you're seeing everything. And it's not a world that you necessarily want to see because none of it is shown in a good light. From his home to the work to the hallways of this labyrinth of a company that is doing all this work to him. Even Malibu doesn't look beautiful.

Tony Maietta:
It's funny, even— yeah, especially the scenes in the company, because, you know, it's way, way underground. It's all deep focus. It's all— because as we said, when we talked about, I think we talked about it in The Little Foxes, James Wong Howe uses deep focus, which means everything's in sharp focus. It gives you twice as much information as a regular shot in which the background is a little blurry. But another thing it does is make you incredibly uneasy. Yeah. Because you're— there's just too much information coming at your brain. And that's on purpose.

Tony Maietta:
That's on purpose. You know, another thing that is— was really startling and is still startling and really caused some problems— audience members left the theater because he is filming an actual rhinoplasty.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
When, when Rock Hudson— when John Randolph is being remade into Rock Hudson, we see a lot of this surgery. And it's pretty gross. It's not quite as bad as they lead you to believe it is if you ever read any of the reviews of this movie, but it's pretty graphic. I mean, he's up there with that scalpel in that nose and it's pretty insane. And that was a real rhinoplasty happening. And apparently 2 of the cameramen fainted when they were filming this. So Frankenheimer had to step in with a camera with James Wong Howe to, to finish it. What do you think of that scene?

Brad Shreve:
It was gross.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah,

Brad Shreve:
I, uh, don't gross out very easily. I had a roommate who, it was his goal in life to somehow gross me out, and he actually worked for a funeral parlor and would tell me stories, and, and it would drive him crazy. Well, you know what? This film grossed me out.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, no, it's just, it's disturbing.

Brad Shreve:
And it's not even that graphic. It's more disturbing. That's it. It's more disturbing.

Tony Maietta:
It's disturbing on every single level. It's disturbing psychologically. It's disturbing physically. You feel for this character who's just trying to find some, you know, again, it's as you said at the beginning, it's some things that we all go through. You know, we're all sold a bill of goods about the American dream and about if we do what we're supposed to do. He even says that in this movie. I did everything I was supposed to do. Why am I so unhappy? And it's incredible to me that it continues on and on.

Tony Maietta:
It doesn't just continue, it builds. I'm talking about in, you know, as time goes on, that it's even worse now. We hear all kinds of stories about depression that these kids are having because of Instagram, because of the fact that their life isn't the life that they're presenting, the better self. It's phenomenal that this film clocked that In 1966. I think it's insane.

Brad Shreve:
This film really is about depression.

Tony Maietta:
Absolutely. Absolutely. The music too. Jerry Goldsmith's music uses all those organs, and at first you think, oh, this is so cheesy, horror film cheesy, but it works! It's so freaky! It's so scary, that fucking organ music. I wanted him to stop it. It's, it's almost— you expect Vincent Price to come out from behind a corner at any moment.

Brad Shreve:
And speaking of horror film cheesy, more than anything, this, this film was really fascinating to me. We'll get into my overall take on it, but the look and the feel and the music, it's— I actually had to sit in here and think about it. It's like a Kafkaesque story.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
In a Francis Bacon Dali painting live version. But this movie was remade 2 years later. Did you know that, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
What? No. What are you talking about? Are you stumping me?

Brad Shreve:
It was. It was remade. Romero made it and he named the film Night of the Living Dead.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, oh, I love that.

Brad Shreve:
Because he had the look. What Frankenheimer did as a technique and an art, Romero was forced into, and maybe not forced into, some of it may have been choice, it may have been equally, But he was forced into it because they only had a $100,000 budget. So he used the handheld cameras, he used the disturbing shots, the shaky camera. All of the things that this film had, that film had. Now, I'm not comparing the quality of the film. Night of the Living Dead is a great horror classic, but you know, you can't compare the two.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But as far as the technique and the feel, they're very similar. And the other thing is, Night of the Living Dead is about the walking dead. And that's what this film is about.

Tony Maietta:
You're right.

Brad Shreve:
That's why I said it was removed 2 years later. I sat there and I'm like, as I'm watching the film— later it became the damn Yankees when he went back and talked to Alice

Tony Maietta:
Horton.

Brad Shreve:
But as I'm watching the film, I'm like, this feels so much like Night of the Living Dead.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, no, you know, and there was a scene that was cut in which the character, Rock's character, goes back to visit his daughter. And the husband is played by Leonard Nimoy, by the way, and the daughter, I believe, was played by Frankenheimer's wife, and sees a little baby. So that scene at the end, at the very end, where he's being, you know, they're drilling into his head, and he has the fantasies on the beach, kind of calls out to that, even though the scene does not exist.

Brad Shreve:
Mm-hmm.

Tony Maietta:
I think that kind of affects it, the film. I'd like that scene in there. It's like, why not put it in? You know, this film bombed. Do it, put it in. But he didn't.

Brad Shreve:
I thought he actually regretted that.

Tony Maietta:
And I think that affects the film and the fact that we don't get the full circle of him going back to the company saying, I want a second, second chance. But that being said, you know, this is the thing about Frankenheimer. And we talked a lot about Frankenheimer when we talked about The Manchurian Candidate. But this is what fascinates me about Frankenheimer is he just— these themes, You know, institutional power and paranoia and manipulation, psychological manipulation, the vulnerability of the individual. His films are rife with this kind of stuff. And he was such an incredible, incredible filmmaker that I don't think is celebrated as much as he should be. It gets better. It's getting better because people are realizing, Jesus, this guy was a real genius.

Tony Maietta:
With these films. And I know you love Frankenheimer.

Brad Shreve:
You're right. I'm just really curious because we had the trifecta we mentioned. He also had Grand Prix, Birdman of Alcatraz. But then in the '70s and on, he had The Horseman, Black Sunday, Dead Man. I haven't seen Reindeer Games, but I've heard nothing good about it. What happened? It almost is like he was trying to be too mainstream and it didn't work for him.

Tony Maietta:
I, you know what?

Brad Shreve:
Like Black Sunday. Black Sunday is what I feel about that.

Tony Maietta:
I think, like many filmmakers, you know, he had his best period, and then he was just trying to make a hit, trying to get— I mean, maybe he was. I don't necessarily know that he would look at it that way. You know, he was trying, he was very good at trying all kinds of things. And so he was trying to explore other areas, other things that interested him. He also had some unsuccessful films. I mean, let's face it, We look at The Manchurian Candidate now as one of the greatest films that was ever made. But there were some problems when it was released. We know this film went, you know, was a horrible, horrible failure at the time of its release.

Tony Maietta:
So it wasn't like he was Martin Ritt, or it wasn't like he was one of these new crop coming out like Polanski, or— he was really kind of straddling the studio era and the New Hollywood. And maybe he didn't feel he had a place in the New Hollywood. That's what's interesting about this film, released in 1966. So, the middle, really, of the decade, the middle of the '60s. And, you know, if you separate the '60s from the early '60s, which is pretty much the Rock Hudson Pillow Talk era, and then you have the late '60s, which we all know was a cacophony of madness, you know, ending with the Manson murders, this film's right in the middle of it. It straddles that. Yeah. And also straddles that era of filmmaking.

Tony Maietta:
Think about it. '66. We see a naked lady in this. So this film really is representative of a time when filmmaking was changing so drastically, so fast. And Frankenheimer, he probably got lost in that somewhere.

Brad Shreve:
I only bring it up because it's such a dramatic change that it's surprising to

Tony Maietta:
me. What do you think about, since we mentioned, since I mentioned the naked lady, a lot of naked ladies, what do you think about the whole Bacchanal in Santa Barbara? You want to tell people what that is?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, Rock's character meets Emily, and who he later finds out was actually working for the company. But he's just this young lady he meets on the beach and strikes up an interest in and a relationship with. And she takes him to Santa Barbara for this very free-spirited, mid-'60s romp of pre-hippies smoking weed. Presume that's what they were smoking.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, smoking something. They were smoking something.

Brad Shreve:
Dressed like they're doing A Midsummer Night's Dream, stomping grapes, and they all get naked and keep stomping grapes. And I was first taken a little bit aback when they were taking off their clothes, and I wasn't expecting to see anything, but I was curious. I was watching very closely, and I know we at least saw a side boob.

Tony Maietta:
Oh no, you saw, you saw everything. You saw everything.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, really? Then I did miss it. So...

Tony Maietta:
You saw everything, and you saw on men too. You did. No, it was full-on naked.

Brad Shreve:
I'll have to go back and watch.

Tony Maietta:
It devolves into a full-blown orgy. I mean, that's certainly the impression that we get.

Brad Shreve:
Well, that was, yeah, that was pretty obvious that that became an orgy. And that was a key to the film. There were parts of this film that was like, okay, we're starting to drag here. And this was one of them that started to, but it was so key to the story because He gets taken to this thing and he's really, really uncomfortable. He hates— you can tell he absolutely hates being there. And then he gets his clothes ripped off and thrown into the grapes. And he allows himself to—

Tony Maietta:
Let go.

Brad Shreve:
Fall into it. Just let go, let go and enjoy it. But when all is said and done, it wasn't satisfactory. He's back to his old world again, to a degree.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it's like any temporary fix, you know? It fixes you for a while, you feel exhilarated. He does change a little bit, but he goes right back into that. So what happens is Rock is having a very difficult time adjusting to his new life. I mean, they put him up in Malibu, they gave him a manservant played by the wonderful Wesley Addy, who take— his name is John, who takes care of him. He's in this beautiful house in Malibu. He's a painter now. They set him up as a painter. They got him— they're not fake diplomas.

Tony Maietta:
Rock says you can't fake these. So somehow this company has some deep roots. And he's set up as this painter, Tony Wilson, but he just can't get with the program. Literally, he just can't let go of his former disillusion. He just can't seem to get it together. So he meets Nora, played by Salome Jens. Jens. I covered all my bases there, on the beach.

Tony Maietta:
And she's this free-spirited woman. You think, oh, this woman's gonna bring him out of his shell. This is why. And then she takes him to that Bacchanal and they have an incredible time. And then the next scene, he's actually finally having this party that John kept urging him to for the neighbors. And he starts drinking too much. And Nora, Salome, makes the mistake of saying to him, calling him, they're like getting all flirty and sexy with each other 'cause they're obviously having sex. And she says, dirty old man, and Rock's face— because he goes, I am a dirty old man, you know what I mean? Suddenly he's John Randolph in his mind.

Tony Maietta:
And she's trying to get him to stop drinking. He keeps going further and further and further until he finally lets it slip that he has a grandchild, you know what I mean? He lets his identity slip and they pounce on him. And it turns out almost all the people at this party are seconds. And then she comes in and starts screaming at him that he ruined it, he ruined it. And then he realizes she's either a second or she definitely works for the company. She was planted there to help this guy get on with his new identity. And he's— this is what causes his whole trajectory of going back to see his wife. He's decimated by this emotionally.

Tony Maietta:
He just can't believe that he's been set up and the one thing he thought was real in this new life turns out to be just another machination of this company. It's so— that's his face when he realizes that she is part of this whole thing. It just kills you. He's so good in this.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, because that's the one thing that wasn't fake in his new life. And sure enough, it was fake.

Tony Maietta:
It turned out to be fake. So it turned out to be fake.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So yeah, it's I don't know. I think it's a staggering performance he gives. I think it's definitely— people, if you only know Rock from Pillow Talk, or you only know Rock from Giant, well, you just need to watch this movie because this movie is just— it will blow your mind. And I think it's a great Halloween movie. But unfortunately, in 1966, this movie didn't go over so well. So Brad, I guess I'm gonna throw it up to you to tell us, how did this movie do when it was finally released?

Brad Shreve:
Well, this movie did fantastic. People loved this film. It was a, it was a medium budget. It was about $2.5 million to make this film. Now, box office, most things are saying that it was $1.75 million that it earned, but I believe that includes later rentals. I believe at that time it actually made less than $1 million. So it was a huge— it was considered a box office bomb.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah,

Brad Shreve:
it was actually booed at the Cannes Film Festival.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right, right.

Brad Shreve:
And poor Rock had to be there. He was the only person representing the film, I guess. But the world has come around and become a major cult classic. And I will say, it definitely is not everybody's cup of tea. But Rotten Tomatoes, an aggregate of 62 professional critics, Score is 79%. Audiences like it a little more. 25— actually, quite a bit more. 2,500 audience reviews at 87%.

Brad Shreve:
And IMDb with 24,000 ratings gives it 7.6 out of 10. So obviously people really like this film. It was nominated for one award, and it was Best Cinematography Black and White, which—

Tony Maietta:
So well deserved.

Brad Shreve:
I think it should have won, but it did lose to Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Tony Maietta:
Well, there you go. I mean—

Brad Shreve:
I know, that's no surprise.

Tony Maietta:
Still, the things that— how— that James Wong Howe does in this are so freaky. They're so— they're so out— they're so far out there. I don't— I think that's the problem. You know, as beautiful as Virginia Woolf is, and maybe we'll talk about Virginia Woolf sometime, it's very standard. I mean, there are some great shots, don't get me wrong. There's some great point of view shots in Virginia Woolf. But compared with Seconds? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Seconds is so out there. I don't think people— I know people didn't know how to react. You're right. There were boos at Cannes. People talked back to the screen. And poor Rock, you know, poor Rock. How often do you hear that? Poor Rock was sitting there, you know, he just did this. He was very, very brave.

Tony Maietta:
And they just would not accept it. But what's really nice is, is that it did, as the years went on, just like The General, just like To Be or Not to Be, these films— Yeah. That have been, have been reassessed and reevaluated for the truly outstanding pieces of art they are. And Seconds is just— I guarantee you, it might not be your cup of tea, but if you want to watch a different Halloween-type film, I highly recommend Seconds. It will creep you out more than any stupid slasher Nightmare on Elm Street thing. I think so.

Brad Shreve:
I agree 100%. As I said, it's very uncomfortable. I bought this film because for whatever reason, the price to rent it was the exact same price as the price to buy it. So I said, what the hell, maybe I like this film. I watched it twice. Because there was so much to it. I knew I was really into the story, and I knew there was that I probably missed. Like, I didn't catch the whole him going through the meat factory and how much that was what he was going towards.

Tony Maietta:
The carcasses, the carcasses. As John Randolph is going to the company for the first time, he has to go through this meat factory and just the carcasses of meat. that are hanging there, and it's just— and this guy who's working there keeps calling the workers idiots and stupid. It's so dehumanizing. It's so depressing. I always think I want to go back to New York in the '60s. Not that New York. You can keep that New York.

Brad Shreve:
These carcasses on these, basically, not cadavers, but, you know, hanging from the ceiling and being moved.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
It really reflects what this film is, because in the end, He's being recycled into somebody new, you know, he's being killed and somebody else is going to get that identity. So it's, you know, just another person on the conveyor belt, another slab of meat.

Tony Maietta:
That's it exactly. He's another slab of meat.

Brad Shreve:
And there's a lot of that stuff that you'll miss probably the first time.

Tony Maietta:
He's another slab of meat. Absolutely. He's a— it's so many things. It's the, you know, the horror. It's a horror film about the American dream. It's a cautionary tale of be careful what you wish for. I also think it's wherever you go, there you are. You know, I mean, we all love the idea of a makeover.

Tony Maietta:
We all like the idea of reinventing ourselves. And then we get to the point where we realize after we reinvented ourselves, we're the same person. It's just a different, you know, same story, same— it's a different environment. This movie is such a cautionary tale about looking outside yourself for that fulfillment, that how really, really tricky and illusionary that is.

Brad Shreve:
And I gotta get a little philosophical here, because what's really sad is, there is nothing in his life that he couldn't have made the decision to change on his own.

Tony Maietta:
True. True. He's so lost. He is— this character is so mired in his— he's only 51. I mean, thank God that, you know, that I grew older in a different era, even though, hell, I was a gay man. I mean, it can be pretty tricky sometimes. But at 51, to think that your life is that empty, that over, even though you have all the trappings, everything you were told, you know, everything that you bought, that they sold you, that you had— He did everything right. And still he's so empty.

Tony Maietta:
It's just— and the fact that he gets the second chance and it ends up being exactly the same. It's, it's just, it gives me chills talking about it.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Brad, I guess that's, that's all we have to say about Seconds. Is there anything else you want to say? Or do you want to talk, do your housekeeping about the podcast or reviews or anything at all?

Brad Shreve:
We'll do the housekeeping about the podcast, which is as usual, We really appreciate you listening to our podcast. If you're listening this far, we hope that means that you enjoy the show. And if that is the case, please rate and review this podcast, or at least this episode, on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to this podcast, because that lets other people know that you enjoyed it and hopefully they'll listen as well. We also would love to hear from you. We've gotten some more recently that we'll have to go over soon. To reach out to us, you just need to send an email to goinghollywoodpod@gmail.com, or at the top of the show notes, there's a link to either leave us a voicemail or send us a text message. Those are the best ways to get a hold of us. We'd love to hear from you.

Tony Maietta:
It's been great to get, to get the emails. It's been great to get the voicemails. I'm greedy. I want more. So please. I'm like that girl in Willy Wonka. More, isn't it? Doesn't she sing More? Isn't she singing about Veruca Salt? Doesn't she sing about More? I don't know. Maybe we'll talk about Willy Wonka sometime.

Tony Maietta:
Anyway, well, Brad, this has been fun. I love this idea for our Halloween film. I hope people give Seconds a chance. And if you have already seen it and didn't like it, give it a second, second chance. Because I think it's absolutely well worth it and a really fun, fun little way to spend a Halloween. Halloween season. So, well, Brad, I guess that leaves us with just one thing left to say, but I don't want to be a secondhand rock, so let's not say goodbye. I love that.

Tony Maietta:
Let's not say goodbye. Let's say au revoir.

Brad Shreve:
No, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Goodbye, everybody.