Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to going Hollywood. 

Brad Shreve:
Tony, when we were trying to decide what film to watch, I really was debating. I mean, I was like, okay, do we watch a screwball comedy? Do we watch espionage? Do we watch a farce? Do we watch a romantic comedy? Do we watch a dark comedy? Do we watch a caper? Do we watch a thriller? I couldn't decide. And so, you know what I said? Fuck it, let's watch all of the above.

Tony Maietta:
Let's watch them all in one movie. I knew where that was going. It's so true. It's so true.

Brad Shreve:
It is all the above.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, I think that we should say that this is— we're starting our listener-requested Swan Song series, and we're kicking it off now with one of the— as Brad just said, a movie which is all things at once, and in— I think is one of the most brilliant movies ever made. Do you care to introduce the film that we're talking about, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, the way this came up, I can't remember what episode it was, we were talking about movies, and I had mentioned that I had watched numerous times To Be or Not to Be by Mel Brooks and his lovely wife whose name is escaping me. And Bancroft. And I think it was from 1984-ish. And, yeah, I always thought it was a great movie, but I didn't think it reached its potential. And then when I learned that was actually a remake of this original from 1941 slash 1944, I guess 1942, I was like, oh, then we should watch the original. And so what we're watching is 1942, which is all of the descriptions that I just gave above. I guess if I had to pinpoint one, I would say it's a dark comedy. Though it definitely has a lot of serious drama in it as well.

Brad Shreve:
And it is about the Russian invasion of Poland and a group of actors doing espionage work for the most part, whether they wanted to or not.

Tony Maietta:
And doesn't that sound like the setup for a comedy? Doesn't that just sound like you'd want to make a comedy out of this? You know, it's interesting because we just talked about another black comedy. not that long ago about a subject that people were like, this is funny? Why are you asking me to laugh at this? Yes. And exact same thing here. Exact same reception to this movie. Exact same reevaluation of this movie. And exact same status of the movie. Yes. And To Be or Not to Be, unlike The General, where we were asked to laugh at Civil War soldiers, soldiers being killed in the Civil War.

Tony Maietta:
In To Be or Not to Be, we're asked to laugh at Nazis. And what's truly astounding to me is we do. That's what's so wonderful about this. Yes. Is it is such a funny, brilliant, brilliantly crafted, funny, funny, scary, thrilling, movie. It's exactly as your introduction, Brad. It encompasses all of those genres into this tight little package of a film.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, and something I want to clarify that I've heard made comments about a lot here is people's discomfort with all the jokes about concentration camps and the extermination of the Jews. And I want to make sure something's very clear here. Concentration camps existed since the early 1930s, and a lot of people have made I don't want to get political here much, but people have made comparisons to the Nazi concentration camps, to the camps that currently exist for immigrants in the United States. And people are like, oh no, you can't compare them. We're not exterminating. Actually, during the '30s, they were very— they were one and the same. They weren't death camps. They were concentration camps where they were concentrating Jews and other immigrants and LGBT, etc., etc., etc.

Brad Shreve:
And they really didn't become death camps until about the time that this movie came out. Now, what's interesting is, despite the fact that we saw them as— that they were really just places that they put the people they didn't want into concentration camps, I actually like that it really offended people. We weren't even talking about death camps yet. So people watch it today and they shudder. But they weren't death camps, but people were still highly offended. And that makes me feel good about humanity. That even that, that was like, that was too much. So does that make sense?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, absolutely makes sense. The thing is, is that, and Mel Brooks, who you said remade this film, Mel Brooks famously said the only way to get even with Hitler is to what? To bring him down, to ridicule him, to make fun of him. That is really the only effective way to deal with the atrocities that Hitler and the Nazis did. And Lubitsch is saying the same thing. He's saying he's making fun of these fascists, of these Nazis, and we're laughing at it. At the same time, we're horrified that we're laughing about it. And what this film does is it forces us to ask, what is a comedy? And a line that Joan Rivers always said was that there are no rules in comedy. Everything is fair game in comedy, and a lot of people don't agree with that.

Tony Maietta:
But when you think about it, as Stanley Kramer said when he was talking about Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, and as we said, the best way to get audiences to pay attention to something you're telling them is to do it in a comedy. When people are laughing, they're more open to absorbing the message, I believe. And so it's not— it's no— accident that the first films to deal with the Nazi threat, the Nazi menace in Hollywood, were actually done by comedians. The Three Stooges did the first short dealing with Hitler, and it was called You Nazi Spy, N-A-T-Z-Y. We also have The Great Dictator in 1940, of course, played by Charlie Chaplin, who was making fun of Hitler. And then we have Lubitsch doing this in this comedy. So I want to talk about how Hollywood, just an overview of how Hollywood dealt with Hitler a little bit when we talk about the background of this film. But it's just important to keep that in mind.

Tony Maietta:
What this film is really telling us is, is that there are no limits on comedy. Comedy can cover all bases, from the beautiful to the atrocious. And

Brad Shreve:
And I would agree with that 100%. And actually, it's interesting because we just talked about this during the Dolly episode, that Jane Fonda, when she made 9 to 5, originally it wasn't going to be a comedy.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And she realized she could reach more people with her message with comedy. That's always true. And I don't think anything is off limits. It is a matter of how it's told. Is it done in a cruel manner or in a way to make it whimsical and still Maybe touch some nerves. I think that's where the difference comes from. But I really don't think anything's off the table when it comes to comedy.

Tony Maietta:
A whimsical film about the Nazis, I guess, is what you could call To Be or Not to Be. Before we start talking about To Be or Not to Be, should we go down the, the incredible cast that are in this wonderful film?

Brad Shreve:
Well, it's probably a few people we've heard of. Starting at the top, as you mentioned, was the lovely Miss Carole Lombard. This sadly was her last film.

Tony Maietta:
It was. Thus the swan song qualification. This was Carole Lombard's last film. She was killed in a plane crash before this film was released. That's how recent it was after her death.

Brad Shreve:
And then we had Jack Benny as her husband, Joseph Tura. I'm trying to think off the top of my head another Jack Benny film that I've seen, and I remember one, but I can't think of the name. But I think of Jack as stand-up or The Jack Benny Show, which I love The Jack Benny Show. But this is the first time I really have seen him in the film, and I was— I kept losing sight, like, who's that guy? Because only when he turned a certain— if he turned a certain way, I'm like, oh, that's clearly Jack Benny. But other times I lost sight of him, which actually is true of a lot of characters in this film. We'll get into that.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
Robert Stack, who I have never known other than The Untouchables, and of course his other work later years. What a handsome man. I never pictured that. I never—

Tony Maietta:
A very young, a very young, young, young Robert Stack, and a very gorgeous Robert Stack. Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. I never thought of him as an unattractive man. I just never gave him any thought. And I'm like, oh, wow, what a looker.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And the rest of these are going to get a little confusing for me because I really had a hard time with these characters. Felix Bressart, who played Greenberg, he's an idealistic actor. Lionel Atwill, another actor. Stanley Ridges as Professor Seletsky.

Tony Maietta:
Seletsky, correct.

Brad Shreve:
Seletsky. He was a traitor. He kind of was the center of all of this. And you'll have to let me know where I know him from. I really liked him as an actor. Sig Ruman, who played Colonel Earhart, my favorite character in the film.

Tony Maietta:
So they call me Concentration Camp Erhard.

Brad Shreve:
He was a goofy Nazi, but Lubitsch didn't take it to the extreme that Hogan's Heroes did. So the Nazis were, were shown to be goofballs, but not total idiots.

Tony Maietta:
Dangerous goofballs.

Brad Shreve:
Which I thought he handled. I thought he handled well.

Tony Maietta:
Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
Tom Dugan was Bronski, also an actor. He's the one that impersonated Hitler, and he had some funny scenes. Mm-hmm. And that was the main, the main cast.

Tony Maietta:
That's the main group of people. You weren't wrong about Jack Benny. You know, Jack Benny did very few films because Jack Benny just wasn't effective in films. Film was not his medium. His medium was radio, and later his medium was television. But at this time, he was a very, very big radio star.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, he was a huge radio star at this time. Huge radio star.

Tony Maietta:
He did a couple movies. He did a movie called Gabriel, um, The Horn Blows at Midnight. He did a version of Charlie's Aunt, but he was never effective in film. And the idea that he would be in this film with Carole Lombard, who was, you know, the queen of screwball comedies, was really startling to people. And most especially to Jack Benny. He couldn't believe— Yeah. That a director of the caliber of Ernst Lubitsch would want him in his film. But that's the point.

Tony Maietta:
Ernst Lubitsch actually created this film around Jack Benny. He created this with the idea of Jack Benny in mind, because he had it in his mind, Jack Benny playing Hamlet. Could there be a more incongruous, more hysterical image? And there isn't. One of the funniest, funniest things in this film is when Jack Benny walks out at the very beginning in his tights, in his Hamlet tights, in his wig. And begins his, to be or not to be. The incongruity of it is what makes it so deliciously funny. And that was Lubitsch's point. He thought, people are going to see Jack Benny, and they're going to see, to be or not to be, and they're going to know it's a comedy.

Tony Maietta:
So there would be no question about that.

Brad Shreve:
But to Benny's credit, I didn't sit here thinking— I was really surprised. I didn't sit there watching and thinking, Oh, that's Jack Benny. I mean, occasionally when you got a really good look at his face, I'm like, well, that's clearly Jack Benny. But I wasn't like, okay, I'm watching the radio star, stand-up comedian playing a character. I wasn't always distracted by that in any way, which if you had asked me before the film, I would have said absolutely I would be.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, you know, it's, you know, he does an admirable job. He's not Spencer Tracy. He wasn't trying to be Spencer Tracy. No, he wasn't trying to be, you you know, William Powell. He wasn't trying— he was being Jack Benny. And that's why Lubitsch wanted him. And also Lubitsch, if you notice, Lubitsch, as they worked, Lubitsch, who also wrote this film, uncredited, but he did create this film basically and write it. The role was written specifically with his— with him in mind.

Tony Maietta:
And it was also bumped up with his own particular persona. And he was made to, you know, the Jack Benny persona of this, dingy, egotistical, easily wounded man. That's basically who he plays in this film. The part of Joseph Torre is pompous, is insecure. He's devastated by any slight to his dignity. That's Jack Benny. Carole Lombard is beautifully cool, a clothes horse. She has this extraordinary ability in her screwballs to treat it with complete seriousness.

Tony Maietta:
Even though everything around her was going, falling apart, she remained cool and calm and beautiful. And that's who she plays in this film. That's exactly what Lubitsch was doing. He was tailoring these roles around the actors that he had. That's why it works so beautifully.

Brad Shreve:
Normally I'd save this till later, but because we're talking about Benny, one thing that I found confusing in the beginning, but then I settled in and understood, and I'm glad, is nobody tried to play this film with a Polish accent.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And at the beginning, I'm like, where are we supposed to be? And where, where are these people from? Because I didn't understand they were all Poles playing in Warsaw in the theater. And once I realized that and accepted, okay, we're doing it without the accents, I was actually relieved because the last thing I wanted, you know, when you have a film and you have a cast of so many people like this cast and you're going to hope that all of them can do a Polish accent. you would end up with something like Prince of Thieves. Was that the Robin Hood film with Kevin Costner?

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Where some people did a great British accent, then you had somebody like Christian Slater who tried one minute and did the accent, and then you had somebody like Kevin Costner who just sounded like he was from Illinois. That would have really hurt this film, and I'm glad they just didn't do that. They just—

Tony Maietta:
Well, on purpose. Lubitsch did it on purpose because— Exactly. What does that do? That removes you from the reality of of the situation.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly.

Tony Maietta:
It takes a little bit of the bite off the fact that we're laughing at Nazis, because of the fact that every single one of them has a different accent, a different dialect. Some of them sound American, some of them sound British, some of them sound German. It, it's all different, because that's the theatricality that Lubitsch is driving home, in the fact that this is a fantasy, a comedy.

Brad Shreve:
And only the Nazis had a very distinct accent.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right, right.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm sure that was done on purpose.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, absolutely. There are no accidents here. I want to talk a little bit about the history, but first I want to talk about the title, To Be or Not to Be, because it's really important to point out some things. This is a movie about actors, and of course, to be or not to be is in reference to Hamlet's famous soliloquy in which he is deciding whether or not he should kill himself. Well, in this film, to be or not to be is also the signal— that's the signal to Robert Stack's character to get up and come backstage, because her husband, Joseph, played by Jack Benny, is now doing his soliloquy. So they'll have time for a little assignation. And of course, Jack Benny's face when he sees an audience member get up and walk out as he's beginning his greatest soliloquy is just wonderful. one of the most delicious moments in this film.

Tony Maietta:
The horror on his face. That someone is walking out on his to be or not to be soliloquy. So there's that. So it's obvious, the obvious reason this, this film is called To Be or Not to Be, because it's about actors. But Lubitsch is also calling it To Be or Not to Me because this movie is about what is real and what is fake. To be or not to be. These actors are pretending to be other people through this entire film. So basically, to be Joseph Torre or not to be Joseph Torre.

Tony Maietta:
To be Selensky or not to be Selensky. What Lubitsch is commenting on is he's highlighting the two-sided illusionary nature of the plot. Everything in this movie has double meanings. And everybody in this movie has a double life. They're pretending to be somebody, or they're not pretending to be somebody. To be or not to be. It also reflects the tonal shifts in this film. The way this film switches from a farce to a thriller on a dime.

Tony Maietta:
Is this a comedy? Or isn't this a comedy? Is this a thriller? Or isn't this a thriller? So when you look at it that way, it's a, it's an incredible title. Because not only does it fit perfectly with, you know, the, the basic plot of this film, and that that's— his signal to get up and go join Carole Lombard. But Lubitsch is telling you what the film— he's giving you the theme of the film in that, in that title. Did any of that, like, hit you when you were watching this by any chance, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely, it did. First of all, regarding the characters and people playing different characters, I watched this kind of one and a half times. I wish I'd watched it more, because I will say, in our discussions, you're gonna find I'm confused. Because you have characters playing characters playing characters. And at times it became very confusing. And there was a scene where Jack Benny was arrested by the Nazis when he was exposed. And the next scene I see him with the resistance. I'm like, wait a minute, they were— did he escape from the Nazis? And then it took me a minute to realize, no, those weren't Nazis.

Brad Shreve:
That was the resistance playing, pretending to be Nazis. And

Tony Maietta:
yes,

Brad Shreve:
it's complicated.

Tony Maietta:
It's incredibly complicated.

Brad Shreve:
It's not complicated in a bad way, but you just have to pay attention.

Tony Maietta:
You have to pay attention, because every joke plays itself out. And at the end of the movie, you'll hear something which makes the joke you heard an hour and a half before even funnier and make even more sense.

Brad Shreve:
And there is no hand-holding here.

Tony Maietta:
There's no hand-holding here at all. So let's talk about— you want to go a little bit into the— and just briefly encapsulate what happens in this movie, just a little of the plot of To Be or Not to Be?

Brad Shreve:
It starts with a play being done in Warsaw. They're doing Hamlet, of course, but they're actually preparing to do a play called Gestapo, which is a play where they're gonna make fun of Nazis and Hitler.

Tony Maietta:
I want to point out here too that, as you said, when this film opens, we are seeing Jack Benny as a Nazi. That's our first sight of Jack Benny, is as a Nazi. And then it pulls back to show that this entire scene we've been watching is a play they're rehearsing. To be or not to be. That is the whole point of this film.

Brad Shreve:
A lot of movies have done this where you start out a scene and then you, you pull away and you realize it wasn't what you thought you were watching. Not always do they get away with it. It was very effective here. It's like, oh, wait a minute.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. And right from the, right from the get-go, Lubitsch is telling us, is this real or isn't this real?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
That's— he's driving that. And this theme continues through the entire movie.

Brad Shreve:
So then the Nazis take over Poland. They invade Poland. And immediately— actually, it may have been before the Nazis actually invaded, but it was right about that same time that they were told, you can't do this Gestapo thing. It's going to upset Hitler. So I can't remember if it was after the invasion or if the government was already concerned.

Tony Maietta:
Before.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it was before. They were already concerned that They didn't want to piss off the guy. So they were already told, you got to stop this. And then the Nazis invaded. And you then end up in London, and all these soldiers are— most of them from Poland, I guess— are talking to this professor and sharing a lot of secrets that they shouldn't have because they were certain they could trust this guy. Well, it turns out he is a Nazi spy. And that really is what sets up the film.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And basically it's this troupe of actors, you know, actors. Everybody laughs because it's actors, because actors get such a bum rap as cowardly, as, you know, the most egotistical, narcissistic group of people. But they're the ones who save the day in this film because they're actors, because they can pretend to be other people and fool the Nazis. And that's, that's what's so wonderful about this movie, is the heroes are the actors. And they're making fools of the Nazis. The silliest people in the world, you know, the shallowest, most narcissistic group of people in the world, are the ones who actually save the day. At least they save their asses in this film.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, one of the cute things at the beginning when they're doing the Gestapo thing, the play called Gestapo, is Tom Dugan as Bronski is doing Hitler, and he's insisting that he, he has Hitler down. You know, people can't tell the difference, and everybody's arguing with him that's not true. And of course, he goes outside and he's trying to prove by going to a Polish deli that he is Hitler. And this little girl says, can I have your autograph, Mr. Bronski?

Tony Maietta:
She's the only one who sees that he's not Hitler because all the people are standing around in horror thinking, What is Hitler doing here? What is Hitler doing here?

Brad Shreve:
He's at a Polish deli. What is

Tony Maietta:
he doing here? So just a little bit of background about where Hollywood was at this time. I'm not going to go too deeply into it, but I just did a documentary called Hollywood and Hitler not that long ago, so it's fresh in my mind.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, interesting. What timing.

Tony Maietta:
I know, right? So this film directed by Ernst Lubitsch, screenplay by Edwin Justice Mayer and uncredited Ernst Lubitsch. And produced by Ernst Lubitsch. We're gonna talk about who Lubitsch was at the end, so hold on. So it's hard for us to kind of, I think, put our minds around this now, but there was a time in this country when Hollywood, when the United States, was just trying to ignore what was going on in Europe. And Hollywood took that cue. In the '30s, there was a significant pressure on major Hollywood studios to simply play nice. About the Nazis and other fascists. Because at that time, Germany was a hugely lucrative market for Hollywood films.

Tony Maietta:
And the Production Code Administration had rules about painting other countries in a negative light. So it was actually against the code to say anything negative about another country's government, another country's religion. That's really interesting. People don't realize that was a—

Brad Shreve:
It is.

Tony Maietta:
That was a, be careful, in the code. Not a, don't do it. A, be careful, in the code. Hollywood really had its hands tied. But primarily, once Hitler invaded Poland, people started to sit up and take notice. Before that, there were some little, little inklings that Hollywood had a little resistance happening. Of course, there was the Anti-Nazi League happening. There was some resistance happening.

Tony Maietta:
But as far as films go, The first film to really deal with the growing Nazi threat was in 1939. And it was called Confessions of a Nazi Spy. And it was released by Warner Brothers. And Warner Brothers was really the first studio to have any balls to say, what's going on in Germany with Hitler is wrong, and we have to do something about it. After Confessions of the Nazi Spy came— Confessions of a Nazi Spy came The Mortal Storm. which also depicted the rise of Nazism in Germany. And of course, in 1940, you had, you know, the seminal one, The Great Dictator, in which Chaplin highlights the resemblance his Tramp character had to, you know, a certain world leader with a little mustache. But even in The Great Dictator, Chaplin gets kind of preachy at the end.

Tony Maietta:
And what I find brilliant about Lubitsch is, and this film is, that Lubitsch does not get preachy with anybody. This film stays a farce from beginning to end. And what turned a lot of people off to The Great Dictator was Chaplin's speech at the end. People don't want to be lectured to. Mm-hmm. Lubitsch didn't make that mistake. Lubitsch made it a comedy and let it just seep into people's mind that this is what's happening, folks. His film before this, The Shop Around the Corner, which was a big hit, starring Jimmy Stewart and Margaret Sullivan, took place in a European town very much like the one that is depicted in the beginning of To Be or Not to Be.

Tony Maietta:
And if you notice in To Be or Not to Be, that town gets decimated. Mm-hm. And it's torn apart when the Nazis attack it. Well, that was no accident. You know, Lubitsch knew what he was doing. What he was telling people was, remember that town and those people and those characters you loved in the shop around the corner. Well, they're now being murdered and massacred by the Nazis. And those are just the kind of brilliant things that Lubitsch puts into this film kind of surreptitiously, which really had an effect on audiences.

Brad Shreve:
And that does take restraint and is a quality. And there, there's a lot of examples that come to mind to me. But the one that clearly comes to mind is M*A*S*H. I thought M*A*S*H was brilliant in the beginning. I was never fond of the movie, but the TV series I thought was brilliant. But once it became preachy, I'm like, I'm done.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, people don't want to be preached to.

Brad Shreve:
No, because it was getting the point across without hammering over my head.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. Just like we said about Kramer. Kramer said the best way to get a message to people is in a comedy. And Lubitsch certainly knew that. And the fact that, you know, once— and in the film, once Germany invades Poland, The whole to be or not to be romantic joke develops into an espionage plot. So again, I love this fact that the central idea of the film is that the theater, these actors, are the weapons against totalitarianism. You can't get a more farcical notion than that. But it's so affecting because it's so well done.

Tony Maietta:
It's so beautifully orchestrated. In this plot, in these performances. It's lovely. One of the things I love about doing this podcast is rediscovering these films that I haven't seen in a while and falling in love with them all over again and their brilliance. And To Be or Not to Be, for me, definitely one of them.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'm gonna go ahead and get out how I feel about this film. I think it's pretty obvious. Like I said, I wanted to watch this because I did enjoy Mel Brooks's version of this film, but I always thought it didn't reach the potential it should have. Now, after watching this film, there's certain films that they should just leave alone, and this is one he should have left alone. As much as I love Mel Brooks, this film is brilliant. It just— I, I was wowed throughout the entire thing.

Tony Maietta:
I like the Mel Brooks version, I do, but I love this one. This one is just Maybe it's because of the— because this was happening. You know, this was current. What was happening in Europe was happening when this film was being made. So it wasn't like looking back. This was very current, and what was happening, I think, gives it an extra dimension. And I think you can't escape the fact that what also gives it an extra dimension is the fact that Carole Lombard's death definitely puts a certain... adds a different level to this film.

Tony Maietta:
Because you're watching a beautiful actress in her prime who didn't live to see this film. Because of the fact that she was on a war bond, on a war bond tour. Raising money to fight the Nazis. Just as she's doing in this film. So that adds another level to it. So I, I like the Mel Brooks film, but it doesn't, compare with this film at all. Because Mel Brooks, as much as I love him, he's not Ernst Lubitsch. He just isn't.

Brad Shreve:
No, he's not. And I— you might be able to help me jog my memory. I purposely didn't watch the Mel Brooks version after this because I didn't want to sit here and do a comparison of the films. But I do want to go and watch it because when it was done, I'm like, was Mel's version sillier?

Tony Maietta:
Yes. I

Brad Shreve:
know it wasn't as silly as a traditional Mel Brooks film, but it seemed like it was sillier than this.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, they, Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft, do a duet of Sweet Georgia Brown in Polish. And that pretty much tells you there is a definite level of silliness. It's a very silly scene. It's a very funny scene. But yes, it's a different— this is not a silly film. This is a serious comedy. That's also a thriller. That's also a romance.

Tony Maietta:
That's, it's, it's all these things. As we said,

Brad Shreve:
it has silly moments, but it's not a silly film.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, exactly. It's, it's all these things. Let's talk about Lubitsch. I don't think that we've ever talked about Lubitsch, one of the giants of the '30s and early '40s films. Had you ever seen an Ernst Lubitsch film, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I am almost certain I did not. When I saw that he made Heaven Can Wait, I thought, oh good, I'm familiar with him. And then I realized the original Heaven Can Wait was named Here Comes Mr. Jordan. So I don't know what that film was that he made, but it wasn't the one that was later remade by Warren Beatty. So, I do not think I've seen any of his films.

Tony Maietta:
Ernst Lubitsch was a seminal director in the '30s and, and early '40s. I think maybe most people, if they know of Lubitsch, they've heard of this term called the Lubitsch Touch. And what that is, is that, is that Lubitsch films had a First of all, he was European. He was brought to Hollywood first by none other than Mary Pickford. To do a film with her. They were actually going to do a version of Faust. But when Mary Pickford's mother found out that she had to kill her baby, she said, you're not doing Faust. So they did this film called Rosita, but they didn't get along.

Tony Maietta:
But anyway, Lubitsch was in America. He is very famous for his sophisticated comedies, like The Love Parade, Monte Carlo. One Hour With You, Trouble in Paradise. What the Lubitsch touch is, and I can give it to you in a line in this film. Robert Stack's character first meets Carole Lombard's character, Maria Tura, in her back— backstage in her dressing room. He tells her that he's a soldier. He's a— he's an airman. That he can drop 3 tons of dynamite in 2 minutes.

Tony Maietta:
Now, The look Carole Lombard gives Robert Stack when he says that, and her response to that little bit of trivia he gives her, is the Lubitsch touch. Because we have no doubt what she's thinking when he says he can drop 3 tons of dynamite in 2 minutes. She even repeats it. Don't you love that? You just see on her face like, oh. That's the Lubitsch touch. Lubitsch had a way of getting around the censors with this kind of double entendre. This sophisticated wink-wink, nudge-nudge that audiences loved. And it made the films so much richer than if the characters would just come right out and say, I'm a great lover.

Tony Maietta:
I can ha— you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's, it's that sophistication. That sophisticated play. The double entendre. That was a Lubitsch touch. And this film is full of those little Lubitsch touches. There's 2 really famous ones. One I wanna talk about a little bit later, but there's 2 of— one of the most famous ones is when they talk about Hitler being a piece of cheese.

Tony Maietta:
Do you remember that, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, and I'm hoping you're gonna explain that one, 'cause I knew there had to be more to it than I was getting.

Tony Maietta:
Earhart says, they named a brandy after Napoleon, they made a herring out of Bismarck, and the Führer is going to end up as a piece of cheese. Well, I mean, That's, that's just basically the wittiness of it is what I'm referring to. It's not like there's a double meaning there. It's the wittiness of the dialogue. It's the wittiness of the dialogue. But the line that does have a double meaning, and the line that really got Lubitsch in trouble, and what turned a lot of people off, is, is the line that Earhart says about when he watched Joseph Tura, Jack Benny's character, doing Shakespeare. Do you know that line? Do you remember? You know what I'm talking about?

Brad Shreve:
Uh, off the top of my head, no. That line is not in my notes.

Tony Maietta:
Well, this line happens when Jack Benny's character is masquerading as Zeletsky, the first time he meets concentration camp Earhart. And of course, being the ham he is, being the insecure actor he is, Jack Benny's character has to ask Earhart if he'd ever seen Joseph Tura in anything, in any Shakespeare. And Erhardt says of Tura's acting, what he did to Shakespeare, we are now doing to Poland. Which today is a brilliant, brilliant line. But everybody, everybody urged Lubitsch to cut that line. It's tasteless. They said, they're gonna come after you for that line. And he held his ground.

Tony Maietta:
Even Billy Wilder, who was one of his great acolytes, said, that's going a bit too far, Ernst. He kept it in. And to me, that's one of the most brilliant lines in film history. What do you think?

Brad Shreve:
It does. It made me laugh. And actually, this is something that's gonna make me not disagree with you, but you pointed out that this is Jack Benny in the film, and that's why he was chosen. And I agree, but he wasn't full-on Jack Benny as I know Jack Benny. He You saw the look on his face. You saw his upset, but he didn't react as Jack Benny as I would expect him to act Jack Benny. He was toned down. He was toned down for this film, appropriately so.

Tony Maietta:
He's not gonna do his stand-up persona in a film.

Brad Shreve:
He's not gonna do well. Yeah, exactly. With his hand on his face.

Tony Maietta:
No, he's not. He's not. He's playing a part. I mean, he's not that ignorant of the fact that he's playing a part. But as we say a million times, actors bring their own characteristics to a role. Yes. That is the pompousness, the insecurity, the being devastated by any slight to his dignity. That's Joseph Tura, and that's Jack Benny.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
There was another line that was cut from this, from the movie. And it had to do with Lombard. Do you know what that line is, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I don't know about any that were cut.

Tony Maietta:
Well, in the very first meeting, or maybe before Robert Stack's character tells Lombard that he can drop 3 tons of dynamite in 2 minutes, he invites her to go up in his plane for a flight. And Maria had a line saying, joking about, what can happen in a plane? And of course, Lombard was killed tragically in an airplane crash before the film's release. So, release. So that line was removed. But these lines—

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, now that one I did know was removed. That one made sense. I thought you meant like a censorship cut.

Tony Maietta:
No. No, I didn't.

Brad Shreve:
That one was appropriately cut.

Tony Maietta:
Of course it was appropriately cut. And I think that what's wonderful, the lines in this film, the character, it's so, they're so dense. They're so complex that you really have to watch this movie more than once. Because I guarantee you on your second watch, you are going to see things that you missed. Or things are going to make sense to you that didn't really make sense to you at first. It's, it's just, it's amazing the way Lubitsch structured this film to get all of his points across. But very, very, you almost don't realize it's happening until it's over. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those movies where you're like, I've just been entertained for 2 hours.

Tony Maietta:
And if you really think about it, you've also been affected emotionally. And that's what film is supposed to do.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, there's multiple reasons. One, I was confused by characters. Two, I was confused by story. 3, I knew I was missing things. And none of that are negative because never was I frustrated in saying, this is pissing me off. I was entertained and engrossed in this film from every— from beginning to end. But at least halfway through this film, I'm like, I'm going to have to watch this again. I'm missing a lot here.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, you just, you have to, if you look at it with the eyes of having seen it once before and you're looking out for these things, Like, I think one of the most brilliant things is, that Lubitsch does, is if you notice, we only see one murder in this movie. And that's the murder of Seletsky, the traitor. But it's done, first of all, behind a curtain. And it's done on a stage. So again, we have this to be or not to be theme. We, we have a character, a very real murder just happened, but it's happening on a stage. Like, it's presentation. It's things like that that you really, you notice the second time you're watching it.

Tony Maietta:
And you notice things like the buildup to when Jack Benny's character pulls the beard off of Seletsky. Remember when he thought he's caught? He thinks he's trapped. Mm-hmm. Earhart thinks he has him, and then, Schultz! And he pulls the— Schultz— Earhart pulls the beard off of Seletsky, and then he's— I'm not explaining it well. Go watch the movie, folks. You'll know what I'm talking about. It's just one brilliant bit, one brilliant sleight of hand after the other.

Brad Shreve:
Every time Earhart does something stupid, he screams Schultz.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes. So they call me Concentration Camp Earhart.

Brad Shreve:
And the interesting thing at the end is there is also a suicide that doesn't turn out to be a suicide at the end, which I thought was really interesting. And that is Earhart. When they leave his office and the door's closed and you hear a gun go off and, you know, and I'm like, Well, that was, because given the nature of this film, I'm like, that was really disturbing. Then the man just killed himself. And then you hear him scream, Schultz!

Tony Maietta:
Yes, exactly, exactly. And you know, that was an improv of, of the actor, of Sig Ruggman, who played Colonel Earhart. That was not in Lubitsch's original script. But his hand just happened to fall back and touch the gun on the table. And then Lubitsch put in that gunshot afterwards. And then the, oh, and then the, Schulz! So you're wondering, what the fuck happened now? And how is it Schulz's fault? So, I want to talk a little bit about Carole Lombard, and the tragedy of Carole Lombard, and what happened. Because this is our, the first in our Swan Song series.

Brad Shreve:
And I so loved her in this film, you're gonna depress me.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I probably will, because she was a beautiful light. Do you want to talk about how this film performed when it was released, the reception it received?

Brad Shreve:
It didn't go for gangbusters because people were, both critics and the audience alike, found a lot distasteful with this film. They certainly praised Lombard. The critics praised Lombard and Lupnick, even though they were uncomfortable. The audience as a rule didn't like the, the war jokes, the Nazi jokes. Remember, this was not long after, even though the United States was, well, actually, the United States had just gotten into World War II.

Tony Maietta:
Had just entered. This film began production in October 1941 and ended in December 1941. So World War II began while this film was in production.

Brad Shreve:
Which certainly added to the discomfort level of, wait a minute, we just got into this war. You gotta remember, this was not long after, this was what, 25 years after World War I ended? So that was still very much in people's eyes. People were uncomfortable. So it didn't make gangbusters. And again, I always question dollar amounts when it comes to this time era, but budget was about $1.2 million and only made a little bit more as from— a lot of sources had no dollar figures. The one I found was $1.5 million and I question it. So it didn't make a lot of money if it made money. But today it is highly regarded by both critics and audience alike.

Brad Shreve:
If we go to Rotten Tomatoes, an aggregate of the critic score is 96%. Audience score, I kind of ignore unless there's a lot of them. There's over 5,000 audience reviews, so I do trust it. 93%, so the audience did as well. It was not nominated for any Academy Awards, which is not a surprise. It was only nominated for one, which was, uh, was it Best Original Score or something to do with the music?

Tony Maietta:
Correct, correct.

Brad Shreve:
And did not win, but it has since been highly regarded. It's been, uh, American Film Institute has praised it. It's, you probably know more of, was it the Library of Congress?

Tony Maietta:
Yes, it was inducted into the National Registry of Important Films. Just like The General. Exactly. This, this film had such— it's funny because I'm reading, I'm reading this stuff. I'm like, this is just like The General. You know, critical reaction was mixed to bad. Mm-hmm. People thought it was tasteless.

Tony Maietta:
They didn't understand why they were being asked to laugh at murderers and fascists and Nazis. Just like with The General. And soldiers being killed. And the film's reputation, however, grew so substantially over the subsequent decades. And it, it's, it now is regarded as, as one of Lubitsch's, not only one of his major films and one of his best, but one of the most remarkable political comedies produced by Hollywood during the war. And you can't argue with that. I mean, this mix of danger. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And you feel the danger. And, It's the mix of this danger and this farce. To be or not to be. I'm gonna drum that to the ground. It's enormously difficult to achieve. And Lubitsch did it. He did it. He walked that very, very fine line.

Tony Maietta:
And he did it. Not only did he do it, he did it brilliantly.

Brad Shreve:
It's a masterclass in blending comedy, political commentary, and suspense. And rightfully so.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the woman herself, the luminous Carole Lombard, who, you know, universally acknowledged as the queen of screwball comedies. But she's funny because even though she's known for these incredible screwballs like My Man Godfrey, like 20th Century opposite John Barrymore, like Nothing Sacred, like Mr. and Mrs. Smith, she did a lot of dramas. as well. In fact, she really wanted to work with Lubitsch. And when Miriam Hopkins, who was the original choice for this role, for the role of Maria in this film, turned it down because it wasn't large enough, which is like, okay, all right, Miriam Hopkins, you know, go ahead.

Tony Maietta:
Stupid. She jumped at the chance to work with Lubitsch because she was tired of doing dramas. She's like, I want to do more comedy, and I want to do a Lubitsch comedy. And they had talked about working together. So she actually put herself forward to do this film. She said, I want to do this. I want to do this. And she's luminous.

Tony Maietta:
She's every superlative adjective you can think of. Carole Lombard in this movie. And what's, but what's really, really beautiful and remarkable about Carole Lombard is, so while To Be or Not to Be was still in production, Pearl Harbor was attacked, as we said, on December 7th. And after hearing President Roosevelt's declaration of war the next day, Lombard immediately contacted him. And she offered her and her husband at the time, whose name you might know, his name was Clark Gable. She offered their services. And Roosevelt was like, no, just stay in Hollywood and support the war effort that way. Make these wonderful films.

Tony Maietta:
But she wanted to do more. So Gable was asked to help organize the Hollywood Victory Committee. And he said, yes, I'll do this. But he was always nervous in crowds. Basically, it meant going out and doing war bond tours, getting people to buy war bonds to support this new undertaking, World War II. He didn't like crowds. And Gable asked Lombard to go on the first war bond selling tour in his place. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Because he was filming a movie called Somewhere I'll Find You with Lana Turner. So Lombard traveled to Indiana with her mother and a press agent. And, uh, in Indianapolis, at the end of the war bond tour, she exceeded her $500,000 goal by selling $2 million in war bonds, which, for a first war bond tour, was pretty spectacular.

Brad Shreve:
That is amazing.

Tony Maietta:
So what happened was this. She had heard rumors before she left that Gable was having an affair with his co-star, Lana Turner. And they had a big fight before she left. But they made up on the phone. But she wanted to go back and see him. She decided to leave the tour early than she was supposed to. And not only that, against the wishes of her mother and Winkler, she said she wanted to fly and not take a train. Because she would get back sooner to Gable.

Tony Maietta:
They tossed a coin. And Lombard won. But she really didn't win, because after an unscheduled stop in Las Vegas, the plane went off course and struck Potosi Mountain, just outside of Vegas. And all 22 people on board were killed. She was the first star to die in World War II serving her country. Which tells you so much about this incredible, incredible woman. that she literally gave her life to help fight the Nazis and fascism and save, save the world, basically. Isn't that devastating?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, and part of the reason, my understanding is, the cause for the crash was because safety beacons were turned off because of the war.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah, it's just she was rushing to get home to her husband. And so can you imagine you're Clark Gable, not only are you possibly having an affair with your co-star? But the love of your life, Carole Lombard, who was the love of his life, was just killed in a plane crash that— on a tour that you didn't want to go on, and you asked her to go on. So, you know, most everybody said that after Carole Lombard died, Clark Gable was never the same. And you can actually see it in his films after that, that he's just He's drained. In fact, I got to put this in here because we haven't had it yet. We had a lot of Lucy moments the last episode, but I'm sorry, here comes another one. Lucy would talk about how Clark Gable would get on his motorcycle and ride out to her ranch with Desi in Chatsworth, the Desilu Ranch, and just cry and cry and cry. Because Lucy was very close to Carole Lombard.

Tony Maietta:
She considered, she considered Carole Lombard a mentor. And Lucy was devastated by the death of Carole Lombard as well. Everybody was. Everybody in Hollywood was devastated that this light went out. But I have one more legacy of Carole Lombard that I think is really kind of interesting. So Carole Lombard and Lucy, as I said, were, were very close. Lucy considered her a mentor. And when the time came, a few years later, and CBS was urging Lucy to leave her radio show and take the leap into this unknown thing that was happening called television, Lucy wasn't sure.

Tony Maietta:
She's like, I have a movie career. I don't really want to sacrifice that to go into this unknown quantity, which might destroy my career. What am I going to do? And Lucy said that at this time she had a dream, and Carole Lombard appeared in her dream. to her and said to her, go ahead, honey. Take a chance. Give it a whirl. And that made Lucy move into I Love Lucy to say yes. Isn't that, isn't that something? Isn't that great?

Brad Shreve:
That is.

Tony Maietta:
So Carole Lombard is also indirectly responsible for the American TV sitcom. In addition to being an incredible hero for World War II. So that's, yes, yes, a real, a true light went out. A true light went out. But isn't it wonderful? And many reviewers said this, this is a beautiful way to remember her. This last film of hers is a fitting goodbye to this luminous actress.

Brad Shreve:
And it really is. And you know, it's funny because she's not, she has some funny lines, but she's not screwball herself. She's in the midst of a lot of craziness. Uh, she's actually one of the most stable people in the film.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that was her, that was her gift. She was the eye of the storm.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
She's the cool, calm, collected, gorgeous siren that's causing all these, you know, who's, who's, who may be causing a lot of this drama, but she's cool as can be. Yeah, I urge people to go out and watch some more Carole Lombard movies, the ones I just named. She's, she's truly, truly the greatest, one of the absolute, if not the absolute greatest screwball heroine. Hollywood ever had. So, well, that was To Be or Not to Be. Brad, is there anything that you need to— you'd like to say about the movie or the podcast or anything else?

Brad Shreve:
Just gonna emphasize, watch this film, please. You won't regret it. Watch it several times and really, really absorb it. It's great in many ways. Just— it's great just plain entertainment, or if you want to get deeper than that, do that as well. Beyond that, if you have listened to this far into the podcast, we hope that That means that you enjoy this episode, which we will ask you to rate and review us so that others can enjoy us as well, whether that's on Apple or Spotify, which are the preferred, especially Apple. But wherever you listen to this podcast, you may be on an app that does allow reviews. Please do so.

Brad Shreve:
Also, we would love to hear from you. We've had some more voicemails from individuals that will be coming up. So you can contact us in numerous ways. One, you can send us a voicemail or a text message at the top of the show notes. There's a link there to do so. Or you can send us an email at goinghollywoodpod@gmail.com. In fact, we just got a voicemail that said, I love your show and I wanted to give you some suggestions. I'm going to have to send you an email because it's not— my list is too long for the voicemail.

Brad Shreve:
So one individual is doing both for us and we will, we will play that later.

Tony Maietta:
That's great. Yeah, we will. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
goinghollywoodpod@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you as well.

Tony Maietta:
We really appreciate it.

Brad Shreve:
And we haven't mentioned the playlist on Spotify.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, that's right. That's right. There's a couple— there's some good songs up there from our last few episodes. Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
There is a Going Hollywood Podcast playlist on Spotify that Tony keeps going with songs from movies that we talk about.

Tony Maietta:
I really think that this film was a very, very fitting way to be— to kick off our Swan Song series. We have a couple of really cool movies coming up which highlight actors and actresses and their final performances. And I'm excited about doing that. So thank you to everybody who requested that, because I think it's an exciting series we got going on here. And we also have Halloween coming up pretty soon, and I think we might have one or two, one or two fun treats for you then, and maybe a trick or two. That's just for Brad. Well, Brad—

Brad Shreve:
I could take that many ways.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Brad, this has been fun, and I don't want to end up as Just a piece of cheese. So I think it's time to say it, but as usual, I don't want to say it. So let's not say goodbye, let's say au revoir.

Brad Shreve:
No, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Goodbye, everybody.