Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to going Hollywood.

Note:
The is a crossover episode with the Front Row Classics podcast.

Brandon Davis:
Hello to everybody out there in podcast land. It's Front Row Classics with NPR Illinois Community Voices. I'm your host, Brandon Davis, and I have 2 of my dearest podcasting friends here with me today for the first time actually together on the same podcast. And it is, uh, it's so fun to be able to introduce, first of all, my friend Tony Maietta. How's it going, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
Hey, together again for the first time. I think it's, it, that's, that's, that's what it feels like.

Brandon Davis:
We've done, we've done Brandon and Tony in Palm Springs. We've done Brandon and Tony.

Tony Maietta:
We've done it all. We haven't had this fabulous other person with us, this fabulous other co-host with us. So I'm excited about it. Things are great. I'm very excited to talk about this film we're going to talk about, uh, and to talk about it with you two is like a— it's an amazing Saturday afternoon treat for me.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, I am so happy. I'm so happy. And, and then somebody who, um, you know, we've done, uh, Brandon and Ben Take Hell's Kitchen before. We've done— we've actually done that in person together. So I'm excited to welcome my friend Ben Burke. Hey, Ben.

Ben Burke:
Hey, I'm so glad to be here, to be back. It's always an honor. And to be with Tony too. Tony, you're too kind. I love being here with both of you.

Brandon Davis:
So Ben, the whole impetus of this episode is because of Ben. This is a movie that he and I— well, you have talked about talking about for a long time, and you have forced me to revisit it. And you know what? I'm glad that you have been because I did. I found enjoyment in a movie that I previously did not find any enjoyment from. So first of all, thank you. We're talking about The Opposite Sex from 1956. And, uh, Ben, this has been a guilty pleasure of yours for a long, long time.

Ben Burke:
Yes. And I twisted your arm so hard I almost broke it off, Brandon, before you agreed to do this podcast. Um, that's historically accurate too. Uh, no. Uh, yeah, it's always been a guilty pleasure. We can, we can eventually get into my long story how it became a guilty pleasure of mine. Um, and why I rewatched The Women and The Opposite Sex back to back recently. And I was like, oh, crap.

Ben Burke:
I shouldn't have compared the two. I should have just let The Women alone and rewatched The Opposite Sex and be like, I'm having so much fun, which did not happen this last time. But my roommate came in when I started The Opposite Sex last night and started watching it with me. If he had not sat down with me and watched it and actually enjoyed it, I would have been like, OK, never mind. I've changed my mind about this movie. But yeah, absolutely. It's a wonderful— the great thing I love about it is it's a Joe Pasternak production. And he knew how to make, you know, fun little Technicolor operettas, which he basically made.

Tony Maietta:
Mm-hmm.

Ben Burke:
But this— my problem is the original, it's like madcap screwball comedy farce. It gets very close to being a perfect film. And then The Opposite Sex, you come in and you're like, okay, we're dealing with 2 different period styles here. This does not work as well as I want it to. But the great thing I did love, my roommate who loves television, old television, old movies, stuff like that, he was like, oh, it's Endora. Oh, it's Mr. Magoo. Oh, you know.

Ben Burke:
So, and oh, it's the inventor of pantyhose. So he knew everybody. He had a great time watching it. Oh, it's Alexis Carrington. That's another one.

Brandon Davis:
And Mrs. Kravitz too.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, I was going to say, it's Mrs. Kravitz and Endora years before Morning Glory Circle. I mean, that's what's so— you see these people, you're like, oh, I know where you ended up. Oh, I know where you ended up. That's— and it's that woman from the Depends ads. So I mean, you got everybody here.

Ben Burke:
This is really why Steven divorced Kaye, is because she lost her ability to hold it in.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, good Lord. Oh, poor June Allyson. Poor June Allyson. Tony, what is your— Tony, what's your history with this movie?

Tony Maietta:
You know, oh God, I have to admit to it. Um, you know, I— this film, all right, I, I just want to say off the bat, I believe— and I did a little digging, I'm gonna quote Judy here, we did a little digging, um, which means my production team did a little digging— and I believe this is the one and only podcast in the world that is talking about this movie ever. Who has ever talked about The Opposite Sex? Honestly.

Brandon Davis:
All of The Opposite Sex uber fans will be clamoring.

Tony Maietta:
It's, it's amazing. Are there some? Okay. You know, I remember seeing this film, gosh, it must have been on TCM some Sunday afternoon or something, and I started watching it and I was like, oh, interesting, June Allyson, oh, interesting, Agnes Moorehead. I'm like, wait a minute, why does this sound familiar? It seems to me I've heard this song before. And then I realized, oh my God, this is The Women. And then of course I did all my research. I was like, it is The Women! In a way, it's The Women. So I find so much wrong with this movie.

Tony Maietta:
And so much right with it. It's just like MGM in the last gasp of saying, hey, we're still here. We can still do this. And you're like, not really, MGM. You're not really doing it. So, definite love-hate with it. Definitely. However, like it a hell of a lot better than I like the 2008 travesty that— what's her name? Diane—

Brandon Davis:
Diane English.

Tony Maietta:
Diane English did. Yeah. This is much, much better. Much better.

Brandon Davis:
No, no. Because she tried to make it political and she tried to do some of that. And so it just, it doesn't, it doesn't wash that way. It works as just kind of a fluffy, crazy entertainment. But yeah, watching it again, I'm just like, they have such a good cast. Joe Pastranak knows how to produce it. Maybe having someone like David Miller at the helm directing this, they needed to get somebody else. Um, just because I'm just like, in what universe do you have June Allyson sing and dance and Ann Miller doesn't?

Tony Maietta:
And Dolores Gray.

Brandon Davis:
Hello. And Dolores Gray.

Tony Maietta:
Now they threw Dolores Gray the bone and have her sing under the titles, but still, it's Dolores freaking Gray.

Ben Burke:
Come on.

Brandon Davis:
Oh my goodness. I mean, just after she stole the movie the year before in It's Always Fair Weather. So you would think they would be clamoring for her to, uh, to do that. But no, it's, it's fascinating. I just like, man, you know, it's an interesting twist. It's, you know, a version of The Women with the men injected in with a couple of new characters added, a couple characters taken out. We'll, I'm sure we'll get into all of that. And a lot of it just feels similar.

Brandon Davis:
And yet you realize that you can put an incredible piece of work in the hands of a totally different group of people and it just does not work the same way. Completely. Now also it's 15 years later and the world's a different place also. So that could be part of the reason too. But yeah, it's, but it is, it's so interesting and it looks incredible. I'm watching it again. I'm like, this is one of the most attractive movies I've ever seen. And I even, I made Ben so happy, I actually purchased the Blu-ray because I knew that we were doing this.

Ben Burke:
Oh, wow.

Brandon Davis:
It looks stunning.

Tony Maietta:
It is gorgeous.

Brandon Davis:
I will say.

Tony Maietta:
It is gorgeous for the color alone in those Helen Rose costumes, which my housemate Michael hates the costumes. I don't have that visceral reaction to costumes ever. However, you know, obviously it's not Adrian, but it's such a gorgeous— all of, you know, it's late '50s, MGM, CinemaScope, Technicolor. It's like Butterfield 8. It's like Les Girls. It's this gorgeous confection in color.

Brandon Davis:
I—

Tony Maietta:
that I love.

Ben Burke:
That I love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the thing I love about Helen Rose costumes is, uh, it— she always— well, Hitchcock hated Helen Rose because she designed for North by Northwest and he tore them all up and he threw them out. Um, but she designs costumes that you would never really see in real life.

Brandon Davis:
Never.

Ben Burke:
I know. They're the most uncomfortable costumes, but they're gorgeous, and they're beautiful. OK, I have decided that if I were a drag queen, I would want my wardrobe to be Dolores Gray's in this movie.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brandon Davis:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
But recently, talking about Helen Rose, recently I rewatched Interrupted Melody for the first time in a long time. And I was like, you know what? I would rather have Eleanor Parker's wardrobe after she becomes famous in that movie. I mean, and they're just, just the most unrealistic things. It's like no woman in her right mind would go around wearing these things. But they're absolutely gorgeous to look at. And it's Metrocolor. It's not even Technicolor.

Tony Maietta:
It looks like Technicolor.

Ben Burke:
Yes, yes. But Metrocolor is like my second favorite after Technicolor because Metrocolor had like a pop and a punch. You watch like Gigi or Bells Are Ringing or The Courtship of Eddie's Father. It looks gorgeous, um, but it's definitely not Technicolor.

Tony Maietta:
Talking about Helen— talking about Helen Rose, you know, she's not Irene Sharaff, she's not, um, Adrian, she's not one of these— she's not Edith Head, for God's sake. And yet she did some of these really incredible costumes at MGM in the late '50s that just don't get the attention that, that an Edith Head costume does. And I think some of them are— I mean, Dolores Gray's costumes in this are just as out there cuckoo as Roz Russell's are in The Women. I mean, completely, they're just absolutely eye-popping stunning. And I think Helen Rose needs to get known a lot more because I don't, I don't believe she gets the credit she deserves.

Ben Burke:
Well, and I've read that Edith Head was better at like speaking out for herself, almost like marketing herself better than Helen Rose was. Oh yeah, that's why she won all the awards.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, of course.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah. Even some of the ones that maybe other people should have had the credit for and she shouldn't have either. But, you know, poor, poor, poor Givenchy. Absolutely.

Tony Maietta:
Totally. Don't, don't say poor Givenchy.

Ben Burke:
Well, no, I know he got years of work because of that mistake. Yes. They had Audrey Hepburn. Another thing is, um, did Edith Head even really draw any of her costumes? Because starting out in Hollywood, she could not sketch. She'd tell a sketch artist what she had in her head and they'd put it down. And I think eventually she got to where she could do it, but it's like, did Edith Head even design her costumes, or did somebody else do it for her?

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. Anyway, but you know, Brandon, you mentioned David Miller, and I'm just like, could there be a more run-of-the-mill milquetoast— I mean, yes, Sudden Fear. Yes, I'll even throw out the story of Esther Costello there, but we know who directed those 2 films, right? I mean, we don't have to worry about that.

Brandon Davis:
No, we don't.

Tony Maietta:
He's— it's just, he's so bland. He's— what's wrong with this movie is there is no spark, there is no magic to this like you have in other late '50s. Like, I, you know, we talked about Les Girls. I love Les Girls because we got Cukor here directing this. Gigi, same thing. What is it about David Miller? It's just— it's like he's like the male June Allyson. He's just bland.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, absolutely.

Tony Maietta:
Nothing there.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah. And, you know, I've— I texted you all throughout, you know, this— the period of watching this, and I I consider myself growing up a June Allyson fan. And it's so funny when I— when the internet came about and there were message boards, I didn't realize the hate among the classic film community for both June Allyson and Van Johnson.

Tony Maietta:
Who?

Ben Burke:
Well, yeah.

Brandon Davis:
Of course, Van Johnson's a whole other can of worms.

Tony Maietta:
I think, yeah.

Brandon Davis:
But June Allyson, yeah. And the older that I get, the less and less I enjoy June Allyson on screen. And I told you all, by 1956, unfortunately, her girl-next-door charm just doesn't exist anymore. We're not in sort of Two Girls and a Sailor, um, June Allyson stardom here. And, you know, and unfortunately, they even make a crack in the movie that she needs to change her hairdo.

Tony Maietta:
Why didn't they? Yeah, I mean, I hope we're not getting ahead of ourselves, but the whole— the whole young man with a horn sequence, why didn't they just go back to Two Girls and a Sailor and show— I don't understand that. Yeah, I mean, it's MGM, they could have done that, they didn't even bother to change her freaking hair. She still has that tiny little— that she had, you know, for the rest of her career, that little tiny hairdo she had. And I'm like, why? What was the point of that? What was the point of that? I—

Ben Burke:
that—

Tony Maietta:
I am not a June Allyson fan. I've never been a June Allyson fan. So you're gonna— you're much more gracious than I am.

Brandon Davis:
No. Well, yeah, Tony and I have, uh, you know, Tony and I agree on a lot. We found our 2 big major differences are Jimmy Stewart and An American in Paris are our 2 big things that we differ on. But, but other than that, he and and I are pretty simpatico on everything. Ben and I are fairly like evenly matched on everything. But—

Ben Burke:
Yes, except for this movie.

Brandon Davis:
Except for this movie.

Ben Burke:
Um, I will, I will say about June Allyson though, when she's young— and first of all, Brandon, that's ageist. Uh, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, by the time she gets— you can tell like she and Dolores Gray, some of them have so much pancake makeup on, especially on the Blu-ray. It's like, you know, they're like the— they're like Meryl Streep in Goldie Hawn in Death Becomes Her. It's like they are trying to— and this one reason why Lucille Ball started wearing that skin cap, the cap under her wig, was to pull her face back. But she's— she was very cute in the '40s when she was—

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
She was adorable. And she's never really, as my acting coach says, she's somebody like Esther Williams who can't act her way out of a paper bag. But she was adorable. By the time she gets to this, this Like I said, I shouldn't have started with the women because Norma Shearer, even though she's a little bit above— she's a little bit too theatrical at times for my taste. Norma Shearer knows how to handle what's going on in the movie. And you see it between each of her lines.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right.

Ben Burke:
You can read between the lines to see how she's actually feeling. June Allyson can look sad, and she can cry, but she can't do much more than that. So there is not the emotional depth. that you feel in the original movie.

Brandon Davis:
I think that that's what my major issue is because Norma Shearer, even though she's playing this more, you know, earthy housewife compared to the Crystal character played by Joan Crawford, Norma Shearer still feels cosmopolitan. So, you know, she still has this— June Allyson doesn't feel cosmopolitan in any way, ever.

Tony Maietta:
No, not at all. Not at all. This character should not be the girl next door. She should be a very, very— she should be Norma Shearer. You know, I have lots of issues with Norma Shearer. Uh, in The Women. I love it when Joan Crawford gives the screws to her. I think it's so much fun.

Tony Maietta:
And then when finally, when she takes it back at the end, I don't know, you feel— you're like, yeah, you go, girl. I mean, I hope she falls out that window when she puts her hands out to run to Stephen. I'm like, just keep running, because that is just some silent film acting we don't need. But I care— I could not— suddenly June Allyson gets balls and she goes back to get Leslie Nielsen, and you're like, I could care less, to tell you the truth. I really could care less.

Ben Burke:
And they, they ruined it by putting men into this film.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
I could care less about Leslie Nielsen. He looks like a little freshman boy that's taking his first acting class, a freshman in college, and he's trying his darndest, but he can't even live up to June Allyson at this point.

Brandon Davis:
No.

Ben Burke:
So I love—

Brandon Davis:
and this is a year before Tammy on The Bachelor too, which I think he's much better in. But yeah, he doesn't seem like— yeah, he's not up to being on screen with of these veteran women who've just been doing it so much longer than he does. I think he's even outshined by Jeff Richards in this movie too. We'll get to him in just a second.

Tony Maietta:
I think so too. I think so too. No, I really do think the biggest mistake that Faye Cainan and Michael Caine made was putting men in this. I know it was the gimmick. I know it was the gimmick.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
But it takes away— because you know why? Because when you have an actor in there, then suddenly there's a persona. You know, in the women, Stephen Haynes can be anything we want. We can create him in our mind so he can be a real sleazebag. In our mind. Yeah, but you can't do that once you identify that character with an actor, because then they've got to be somewhat lovable so you understand why she takes him back in the end. And that's the big mistake.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, this is what makes so many older supernatural thrillers so thrilling, so scary, like The Uninvited or The Haunting. You can never see the ghost. You can never see the monster that's haunting them. You can never see the women— you can never see the men and the women. So you don't exactly know what's infiltrating all of this that they're talking about.

Brandon Davis:
Right.

Ben Burke:
But once you start to put men in there, I mean, Jeff Richards, he's so handsome, but I don't, I mean, he's kind of like milquetoast too, but he outshines Leslie Nielsen.

Tony Maietta:
Definitely. Definitely.

Ben Burke:
He's not, well, he's a little bit better than Steven Boyd too, but that's another story. Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
I mean, it's, Well, let's go into, you know, we can talk about the men in a second because you're right. I mean, the Canons, Tony, they defended this decision. And I'm just like, I think part of the reason the women works, and I think it's because it's so clever, is that, you know, the play and then the '39 film, they set it in all of these areas where women would only gather and you wouldn't see men. And that was so clever about that because then it still felt real even though it was a gimmick or whatever. And then when you add the men into this, it's just kind of like the fun goes out of it and you've, and, and, and the, the stakes aren't as high because if you don't feel like the men are worthy of the stakes in this movie, it just, I, I don't think it works anymore and it doesn't matter. But I do think had they, had they kept to what the original gimmick of the women is with this cast, I think it probably could have worked much better. And I don't think they needed to turn it into a musical cuz I don't think any of the musical numbers work.

Tony Maietta:
Oh my God. Well, this is a— is this a musical? This is a musical with giant air quotes because, oh my God, Sammy Cahn, shame on you. These are horrible. Sammy Cahn, except for the title song. I love the title song.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
But these air quote songs are a bit— I mean, my God, why? What's the point?

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
What is the point? What is the point of that?

Ben Burke:
Well, and I think part of it had to do with, well, I love Now Baby Now. I think that's very sexy. But the part of that has to do with Mark Wilder, who is absolutely adorable. But that part of it is, I think, from what I can gather, it's like after the— after Loew's fired L.B. Mayer and the studio started hemorrhaging cash, they were like, what do we do best? We make musicals. Eventually, Dorey Sherrie had to realize this. And so they started making these musicals. And they're like, let's take some of our biggest hits from the late '30s and '40s—

Brandon Davis:
Right.

Ben Burke:
And repackage them into these giant musicals. The only one that works and still holds up, not as well as the original, is High Society, in my opinion.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes.

Ben Burke:
But well, and somewhat Silk Stockings. But Dory Sherry became so big-headed that he tried to remake Gone with the Wind, and I'm like, you shat your pants, didn't you? Exactly. Shat his pants over that one.

Tony Maietta:
Well, not only what do we do best, but what do we have that doesn't cost us anything, right? We have the women, we have Silk Stockings, Ninotchka, we have these, these movies that we did in the '30s that we can repackage. But then that begs the question, Other than the fact that they're, they're, they're hemorrhaging, so they have to figure out something to do to keep the studio going. My big question about The Opposite Sex is why?

Brandon Davis:
Why?

Tony Maietta:
What was— I always have this question with remakes.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah. Why?

Tony Maietta:
Show me something besides the men that's different. And I know that was their justification. It's now a romance. I don't buy it. I don't buy it at all. Why did you have to remake this film? It was perfect as it is. But you're right. That's what they were doing in the late '50s because they needed to do something.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
They did.

Brandon Davis:
And you're right, Ben. It works. It works with High Society. I think it mostly works with Silk Stockings. I have some issues with that one. It worked, you know, earlier on when they repackaged Shop Around the Corner and In the Good Old Summertime. I think that works pretty well too. But this one, I, yeah, I just don't know.

Brandon Davis:
There's no, there's no energy in this movie for the most part.

Tony Maietta:
None.

Ben Burke:
Well, there's no energy. Another one that I—

Tony Maietta:
perfect.

Ben Burke:
Oh, go ahead.

Tony Maietta:
No, that's just— that's a— that's the perfect— that's the thing, Brandon. There is no energy in this film. The Women is full of insane energy. Rosalind Russell is a whirling dervish in The Women, and that's why we love her, because she's so crazy. I love Dolores Gray, but you can't compare them. There's no energy in this film. And that's David Miller. That's David Miller, who's—

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, no, oh, absolutely. He did not draw any perform— I love, I love 95% of this cast, and, uh, it's You even get— we met— you even get Maidy Norman. You get, you know, poor Elvira in this movie.

Ben Burke:
Charlotte Greenwood.

Brandon Davis:
Charlotte Greenwood.

Ben Burke:
I know. She doesn't even get to kick her legs out.

Tony Maietta:
It's amazing to me.

Ben Burke:
What is this about?

Brandon Davis:
I know. I'm like, you get all of these wonderful performers and you don't get to— you have June Allyson do all the showy stuff when you've got all these other incredibly talented performers who have so much more to give.

Tony Maietta:
Address the elephant in the room. How do you put Ann Miller in a film that's a musical and she plays a showgirl and she doesn't dance once?

Ben Burke:
Once.

Tony Maietta:
How do you do that?

Brandon Davis:
If there was ever a movie where a character could have had, you know, a ripoff skirt, this is it.

Tony Maietta:
Do a Campbell's Soup commercial here. Go for the Campbell's Soup commercial, Ann. It's a perfect opportunity.

Brandon Davis:
I will say that is the one time I feel like when June Allyson is on the train and we get that scene with Agnes Moorhead and Ann Miller, that's when the energy comes up just a little bit because they are both so wonderful and so good and just have these incredibly bubbly personalities. personalities. But even, even then, you know, the script just does them no favors after that.

Ben Burke:
Well, and Agnes Moorehead had energy all on her own. Let's go back to David Miller for just a second. Because David Miller— I mean, one of my favorite camp classics is Midnight Lace, which he directed.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, that's true.

Ben Burke:
Yes, yes. It's still not a great movie. But the original, it came from screwball comedy and farce. And the women in The Women never stop. There is an energy there that keeps on going, keeps on going. There's not a breath that they stop. And they say the funniest things. And that's how we get drawn into the movie.

Ben Burke:
And this, David Miller directs, it's not about pace at all. It's about costumes. And, and the way that he directed some of these women, none of them go together. I mean, Joan Blondell had been vacant from movies for several years. And you could tell it every time somebody talks to her. It's like, pause, pause, pause.

Brandon Davis:
And we're supposed to buy that she's with child?

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
She's a menopausal baby. She was what, 50, 51 when she did this? I'm like, Joan Blondell, just what?

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
Someone's asleep at the switch here. Hello? How long ago was Footlight Parade? How long ago was Night Nurse? I mean, come on. Yeah, it's crazy.

Ben Burke:
It's crazy. Well, and I mean, the original— talking about Cosmopolitan and how, uh, Norma Shearer was— she was European. She was sophisticated in some ways. She has that about her. One of the originals that was supposed to be Kay Hilliard, June Allyson's role, was Grace Kelly. That would have been an entirely different film.

Brandon Davis:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
Because we would have felt for her. She would have been a high society matron that, you know, now we want to eat women like that. But eat the rich is what I mean. Um, but she, uh, Grace Kelly got married to the Prince of Monaco, and then it was supposed to be Esther Williams, which would have made equally terrible film. But, um, equally terrible as this one.

Brandon Davis:
Esther at least has some fire underneath her.

Ben Burke:
She does. And she would have worn that— those costumes so beautifully too. I would have enjoyed that movie. Then Esther Williams said no, so she was put on suspension. So then they went to Eleanor Parker. That would have been another one like Grace Kelly that I would see. Eleanor Parker still has too much theatricality at times, but can still handle still handle the drama and being sophisticated. She's the Baroness.

Ben Burke:
I mean, we would love to say the Baroness played the lead in the women. Um, that would've been amazing. What I also read from an AFI article that I found, that after they went through all of these women, at one point MGM was, um, considering— they put it, I think they put it in a Variety article. that then it was supposed to be Doris Day and Howard Keel is what I read, which would have been— that, that I, I don't, uh, I don't know what, what would have come out, but it would have been like a 3-headed baby, I think. I'm not sure how I would have felt about that at all. I know Doris Day could have done it and we would have felt for her.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
Um, Howard Keel as an asshole, we've never seen that before, have we? Oh, Showboat, a little bit.

Brandon Davis:
He gets a little— he gets a little bit in, uh, Seven Brides, um, towards the end too. Yeah. And but, but Doris Day, that— I mean, you look at, you know, the way that she—

Tony Maietta:
Here's the thing.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, definitely.

Tony Maietta:
Leslie Nielsen's not an asshole in this. He's just ineffectual. He's just— he just can't help himself, or he's not even trying. He's such a nothing. So he's perfectly matched with June Allyson. You got 2 nothings here, so why the hell do we care? I think— oh yeah, I read the same thing, Ben, about the list of ladies that this went through. Grace Kelly, I can't— I mean, she'd probably be like, are you kidding me? I'm gonna go marry a prince. I'm out of here.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, why the hell would she do it? You know? And I feel like Eleanor Parker would have been amazing because you're right, she has that countess— we all know her as the Countess from The Sound of Music. She has that air. She has that sophistication that this character needs. Here's a perfect example how this is different. You— the names, Mary Haynes, And Kay Hilliard. Is Kay even a name? It's a letter, it's initial, it's not a name. And that's June Allison. She should be Kay.

Tony Maietta:
She could not carry off a Mary Haynes. And I mean, you know, it's just the way it is.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, I know. Well, and also their little girl, who, Brandon, you've seen in Them, and she's also in The Last Time I Saw Paris as Van Johnson, Elizabeth Taylor's daughter. She's a little milquetoast She's— there's nothing—

Brandon Davis:
she's cute.

Ben Burke:
Virginia Weidler in the original is such a force. She can, she can stand off with any of these women.

Tony Maietta:
That scene, the scene between Virginia and Joan Crawford in the bathroom is one of the— because they're so equally matched. Yeah, they're so equally matched. And she goes, this girl, this is nothing. This, this girl's a mini June Allyson. She's nothing.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, exactly.

Brandon Davis:
She's lame.

Ben Burke:
She's boring.

Brandon Davis:
I mean, Virginia Widler, just that she went toe-to-toe with Crawford in '39, and then the next year she goes toe-to-toe with Hepburn in Philadelphia Story. So it's like, man, she can hold her own with anybody.

Tony Maietta:
And I never thought I'd ever miss, oh, Daddy darling, oh, Mommy dear, oh, do something, do something! But I missed that. I wanted that kid to be that dramatic so you can really get the import of what's happening to this family. because of Crystal. And that's completely gone.

Brandon Davis:
Completely gone. Okay, so speaking of Crystal, we have not talked about Joan Collins yet.

Ben Burke:
This is Alexis Carrington.

Brandon Davis:
Who, I mean, just, I find it so ironic that she's playing a character named Crystal when she would make such a living in the '80s saying that name snidely. Um, and I, she is, first of all, she's absolutely gorgeous. Um, but I feel like She's— I just feel like she's not up to the task at this point in her career because she doesn't quite have the claws yet that she needs. And you feel like Norma Shearer and Joan Crawford are evenly matched. June Allyson and Joan Collins are not evenly matched. And it also doesn't help that they're probably 2 of the weakest performers in the entire movie at this point too. And Joan is doing her darndest. She's trying and she's giving it her all.

Brandon Davis:
And I give her such kudos goes for it. But, you know, I, I texted you all last night, it's, uh, it's, you know, it's not great when Carolyn Jones is stealing every scene that she's in.

Ben Burke:
Exactly right.

Tony Maietta:
Plus, with Crawford and Shearer, you don't have to know their own personal backstory. It is informed by these actresses.

Ben Burke:
You just get it.

Tony Maietta:
You don't have to know they hated each other in real life, but you feel it. And that's what's so delicious about the women is their own personalities inform these characters.

Ben Burke:
They're—

Tony Maietta:
whatever relationship that is, good, bad, indifferent, you knew they hated each other and the characters breathe because of that. There's no relationship between June Allison and Joan Collins. None. None. And they don't try to fill it in either. There's nothing.

Brandon Davis:
No.

Ben Burke:
No. Well, first of all, because June couldn't act her way out of a paper bag, we really don't know how she felt about her husband or Crystal, honestly. There, there is no— that Norma, you could feel the entire relationship through Norma at times.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Ben Burke:
Especially like when she's at the Reno ranch and she gets the phone call that he's married Crystal and she breaks down, which is probably the most real moment we ever see from Norma Shearer. But she like screams like Irving Thalberg just died, if you get that joke. But she, you don't feel that from June Allyson. Another thing is Joan Crawford Her early career at MGM, that when she had her most success, was built on poor shopgirls working their way to the top. That's what she's doing in this movie. That's why it's believable. And Joan Crawford could play a total bitch. I don't know if you need to cut that word out, Brennan.

Ben Burke:
She was a— she was—

Brandon Davis:
One bitch is okay.

Ben Burke:
I know, one bitch. Okay, now we're at 3 bitches, 4 bitches, 5 bitches.

Brandon Davis:
Okay.

Ben Burke:
But Joan Collins had just— she was young. She had just come to America. Uh, there are 2 different types of Crystals, cuz one exudes extreme— she's a little sexpot is what Crystal, uh, you know, Crystal is. Joan, um, Joan Crawford is just a woman trying to claw her way up to the top in, uh, semi-depression era. So, um, it, yeah. And it's like even June Allyson didn't feel bad about Joan Collins because the one take in that movie where she slaps the tar out of her, I actually like—

Tony Maietta:
Slaps.

Ben Burke:
Well, I love watching her slap her because in the original she didn't because Norma Shearer is supposed to be so, you know, above all of this.

Tony Maietta:
Beneath her. Absolutely.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, exactly. But that is the one vulnerable, raw, and real moment we see from June Allyson.

Tony Maietta:
Totally.

Ben Burke:
When she slaps the tar out of Crystal, she doesn't leave a mark on her face. Not in the movie, she doesn't. But I love—

Brandon Davis:
According to Joan Collins, she did.

Ben Burke:
Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
That's a slog. That's a slog.

Ben Burke:
I know, that was just like— David Miller had to go after June out. There is an interview on TCM a long time ago that I saw when I was probably 7, 7 or 8-year-old, but she said David Miller had to— she didn't want to hit her, didn't want to hurt her. She'd barely touch her. And then finally David Miller got her to slap her across the face, which put a big black bruise across, I think, the left side of her face.

Tony Maietta:
Her earrings flew off.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, her earrings off.

Tony Maietta:
I know, which is crazy. And she had pierced ears. Can you imagine?

Brandon Davis:
And Joan said she saw stars after that too.

Tony Maietta:
That is a whack that was heard around the world. That is the most galvanizing moment in this whole movie to me, is that slap. No, and I don't, I don't necessarily agree with it. I don't know that that character should slap Crystal. I kind of, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm very much in the women camp where she's above that kind of physical altercation.

Ben Burke:
But it—

Tony Maietta:
for one second, that movie— this movie comes alive. Yeah, slaps her like that.

Brandon Davis:
Well, and also, when do we ever see June Allyson do something like that in a movie too? Have that kind of real raw moment? It just shows you maybe we could have gotten more out of June, you know, in other performances. But yeah.

Ben Burke:
Another thought I had just had about June is like the studio was going after big box office people. June Allyson, because I think she left MGM around '53 or '54.

Brandon Davis:
She had already left.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, came back in '54 to do Executive Suite, then left. But with Executive Suite, Executive Suite, I think, is it Airstrike Command, The Glenn Miller Story?

Brandon Davis:
Glenn Miller Story was a blockbuster.

Ben Burke:
So yeah, she had like 4 or 5 big hits. She was one of the top— I've read she was one of the top female stars of '44, '54, and '55. So that's why they went after her for this. which she had played housewives. She was a housewife. She just wasn't— she— I mean, she would have just had an— you know, she would have let anybody take, take Dick Powell from her. Um, she wouldn't—

Tony Maietta:
See, I wonder about that too. Did anybody say, oh, here's Joan Blondell, here's June Allyson? I mean, it's kind of interesting.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, and they actually have— and there's a scene together where it's just the two of them at one point. Like, how uncomfortable must have that—

Ben Burke:
must have that June Allyson also talks about this in this interview. She said that she felt Joan Blondell would never talk to her on set. They had that one scene together, and it's just reaction shots back and forth. And she said usually lots of actors would like to stay behind the camera and read with June while they do reaction shots. Joan Blondell, after they shot her part of the scene, she left, and they still had to do June Allyson's shot. So she wouldn't even stay to do the scene with her. Wow.

Tony Maietta:
She pulled a Norma Shearer, what Norma did to Joan on The Women, and wouldn't give her the reaction shot. So Joan retaliated.

Brandon Davis:
At least Joan knitted.

Tony Maietta:
By knitting when she was giving it, which she was doing. Here's the thing about going back to, to Joan Collins. I always feel that— okay, I feel that, and please believe me, I love Joan Crawford in The Women. I think she is so funny, so fierce, so raw. I love her in that movie. I think she's a little too old. And I think that Joan Collins is the correct age.

Brandon Davis:
That's true.

Tony Maietta:
However, because Joan Crawford is a little older, this is a Crystal with some miles on her, and I really feel it makes the end of The Women touching. The fact— and I said this when we talked about The Women— the fact that this is, this is a Crystal who's been around the block. She's got to go back to that perfume counter. She's not a young chippy anymore. And I find that kind of moving about that. When Joan Collins is, first of all, we really don't even see Joan Collins get defeated. We just know that Buck Winston gives her the brush-off and that's it. You don't really feel that oof.

Tony Maietta:
You don't feel that kind of a gut punch you feel with Joan Crawford saying, I guess it's back to the perfume counter for me.

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
And so I miss that. I miss that kind of— I don't want to— there's almost like a touching quality. At least maybe it's just me, but there's a touching quality to Joan. at the end of The Women when she's defeated that you certainly don't get from—

Brandon Davis:
There's a feeling with Joan Collins at the end of this like she's gonna be okay, she's gonna find somebody else.

Tony Maietta:
She's fine, yeah, absolutely. Crawford has a certain pathos at the end of The Women which I find very moving. I think it's— not very moving, it's not like, you know, but I find it touching in this crazy farce that there's that little bit of reality there.

Ben Burke:
It's not The Yearling moving. But just like, I mean, Mary Boland is— George Feldmanstein has has referenced the performance Mary Boland is one of the greatest performances on film, which I would, you know, and how do you follow that? Agnes Moorehead did in an extreme camp way. I've also read that Jessie Royce Landis would be good in this role. I thought so too.

Tony Maietta:
Oh.

Ben Burke:
That would have been interesting. But the— I love, uh, the vocal stem for me always has been, but I am Dandy Gelatine. And that's when the The air leaves the room. And that's not in this movie. You don't get that satisfaction.

Tony Maietta:
No, no, the way they changed that last scene. So now that— now Mary is trying to destroy Sylvia and not Crystal. It doesn't make any sense, that whole— and with the new Dolly DePeyster and all that.

Brandon Davis:
They—

Tony Maietta:
some of these changes they made, I get, but I don't agree with. I, you know, why? It's a pair of boots loose, it's a needle loose. Come on.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, what do we know? Go ahead.

Ben Burke:
Oh, well, I was gonna say Dolly DeHaven, Dolly DePeyster, Hedda Hopper in the original. The, the remake, Dolly DeHaven was the manicurist in the 1939 one. Did you know that? Did you know?

Brandon Davis:
Yes, I read that.

Ben Burke:
Okay, great. Never mind then. None of you are impressed.

Tony Maietta:
Neither one of you.

Ben Burke:
Forget I said it.

Tony Maietta:
Cut it out.

Brandon Davis:
It's all right. What do we think about the new character Amanda, played by Ann Sheridan? Um, I love Ann Sheridan. But she just— once again, the script does Ann Sheridan no favors. Because if you, you look at like the performance that she does in a movie that Ben and I talked about, The Man Who Came to Dinner, that we both love, and you think about the energy, and Sheridan could have—

Tony Maietta:
She was the oomph girl.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And now she is this kind of stand-in for Mary's mother or Kay's mother, kind of stand-in for, um, the—

Brandon Davis:
Joan Fontaine a little bit.

Tony Maietta:
Joan Fontaine a little bit, for the lesbian character and the, and the, and the women. Um, I mean, she's, she's— it's again nothing. And it's Anne freaking Sheridan. I mean, come on, this, this is a brilliant comedienne, and I, I— she's wasted. She is wasted in this film. Like Joan Blondell, wasted. Totally.

Ben Burke:
I know, totally wasted because they had no, they had no coaching behind the scenes. Uh, no direction really. They just— he just put the camera on them and said go. Um, but Anne Sheridan I will.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Ben Burke:
She— the movie starts out with energy. It really does. And her, in my opinion, and the voiceover of her, I'm like, oh, this is a fabulous woman until you start to get into it. And then you're like, no, none of this is fabulous. But I think when I first saw it in 7th grade, that was the thing that pulled me in because I had seen The Women. I'd seen The Women multiple times. I started in like 4th grade.

Brandon Davis:
We were kindred spirits then, girl.

Ben Burke:
Yes. When I was very young, when I saw it. And I think the thing that pulled me into it in the 7th grade was Ann Sheridan's voiceover. And I was like, what is this amazing movie? And then I watched half of it and I was like, that was really interesting. And then I couldn't find it on DVD or anyplace, so I didn't see it again until the DVD came out my sophomore year in high school. And then I watched it on repeat studying for a Latin final. I made a C on the Latin final, so I shouldn't have done that. But I watched it like 3 times when I was deliriously tired.

Ben Burke:
And I think that's one of the reasons why this became a What is it? A guilty pleasure of mine.

Brandon Davis:
Guilty pleasure.

Ben Burke:
It was like, I was— those 3 times, I was like, oh, this is fun. And I never watched them close enough together to be like, no, this is actually trash. Because I had friends telling me, they were like, this is a trash movie. And I was like, I enjoy it. But Anne Sheridan's voice starting the whole thing off, she had a— she conducts herself so gracefully and beautifully in this movie. And she wears the costume so well. But she's not Lucille Watson. And she's not the lesbian writer.

Ben Burke:
She just— it just doesn't— you don't believe any of it.

Tony Maietta:
You don't believe her. No, you don't. I, I have a problem with narration, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna be contrary here. I don't like the narration because narration is telling us how we should feel about these women. One of the things I love about the opening of The Women is we don't know. We're just following this camera around this crazy Sydney's and making our own conclusions and drawing our own conclusions about who these characters are. We're not being told like we're being told at the beginning of this movie. So I don't like that narration, actually.

Tony Maietta:
I love Ann Sheridan's voice, though. Let me tell you right now. Oh my goodness, yes. Talk about melt butter. Jesus, what a voice. But completely wasted. Completely wasted in this film.

Brandon Davis:
Completely wasted.

Tony Maietta:
Along with Annie Miller. How do you not get— I'm gonna say it again. How do you— people say I repeat myself. I'm not repeating myself. I'm repeating myself. Annie Miller. How do you not give Annie Miller a dance? She's Annie Miller.

Brandon Davis:
No.

Ben Burke:
I know.

Brandon Davis:
I know, I know.

Tony Maietta:
There could have been Starin' to Dance.

Ben Burke:
There's so many moments in this movie where I'm like, they could have done so much other great, wonderful stuff, and it's just a milquetoast movie.

Tony Maietta:
The fight. The fight. The fight in The Women is one of the best baggy pants drop-down slapstick. I mean, when, when, when Rosalind Russell—

Brandon Davis:
One of the best calf fights in movie history.

Tony Maietta:
When Rosalind Russell licks her lips to go take a bite out of Paulette Goddard's calf, is that not the most delicious moment? And nothing here. Nothing here.

Ben Burke:
Nothing.

Brandon Davis:
Nothing. And I was saying, both Dolores Gray and Ann Miller, you know, were dancers and they could have choreographed something really, really interesting and fun. And there's— it's just that I said it goes on a little bit longer than the Goddard and Russell one. And they might have even drew blood at some point in this one. But once again, no energy whatsoever.

Tony Maietta:
None.

Ben Burke:
And they're— you just— he just keeps the camera on them while they're down on the floor rolling around. That's all we see for several minutes. It starts off exciting. Because she almost hits her with that plate and she rips her costume. But other than that, there's not much.

Brandon Davis:
She could have ripped the skirt and Ann Miller could have started dancing and it could have been a whole—

Ben Burke:
I know. Wouldn't it have been fabulous?

Tony Maietta:
Where's that Campbell's Soup?

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
All right. So for my listeners and for Tony's listeners who haven't really listened to my show, most of the time when we do an episode, we talk about the things we love about the movie first. This has been mostly things that we dislike. So let me do an inverse. So is there anything about the movie that we really do like, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
Well, I do like— I do like— she's absolutely wasted, but I do like Charlotte Greenwood. I thought she was a perfect choice for Lucy. I think this was her last— I think this is her last gig. I'm almost positive. This is pretty much her swan song. I love that. Um, I do like the title song. I gotta tell you, I'm not crazy about the whole Dick Shawn, Jim Backus thing.

Tony Maietta:
I'm like, what the hell?

Brandon Davis:
What are we doing here?

Tony Maietta:
What is this Broadway show? So I am not crazy about that. Costumes, love the costumes. And that's about it, actually. It's fun. It's fun. But at the end, I am left with the same question. Why? Why? You know, it didn't even make money. That's the thing.

Tony Maietta:
They were trying to stem the bleeding and it was not a hit at all. No.

Brandon Davis:
No, it, you know, it basically broke even and didn't really do anything that they were wanting it to do. Yeah, you're right. I enjoy— yeah, Charlotte Greenwood is wonderful and you're right, it is her last screen appearance.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
And she couldn't even go out doing one more high kick like Ben said. But Ben, apart from, you know, some of the things that we've talked about, are there any other like Like, favorite moments you have in this one?

Ben Burke:
No. No, I'm just kidding. I love— I mean, I love the 1950s haute couture. I love the costumes. I love the CinemaScope, the Metrocolor. These women coming together, even though they never make it work, I love the idea of these women coming together. I also love Jerry Antes, who's saying, yellow gold. I think he's adorable.

Brandon Davis:
That song.

Ben Burke:
He is a beautiful baby face. That song. Oh my God.

Brandon Davis:
Within the tightest pants.

Ben Burke:
The tightest pants. But he's apparently— he was married for 12 years, had 3 children. So he's probably the straightest man on that stage. But I also love in Now Baby Now, Mark Wilder. Do we know who this is? He was a dancer. He was like a specialty dancer who made— he was in The Band Wagon. He was in There's No Business Like Show Business. Okay, he was in um, uh, The Tinder Trap.

Ben Burke:
He was in Kismet. Um, he was an— this amazing dancer who I first saw him in, and he was in, uh, Meet Me in Las Vegas. I first saw him in this movie and I was like, who is that? He's very attractive. Um, but he— and he's also one that, uh, died from AIDS in the early '80s, uh, before they knew exactly what was going on. But that's another thing, you know.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Ben Burke:
Boy Crazy Ben. But that's another thing that I love about this movie.

Brandon Davis:
It's— yeah, it's nice to— it's nice to see Harry James in a cameo.

Tony Maietta:
It is. That whole book— that whole bookending of Young Man with a Horn is kind of fun. I just don't think they did it right. I don't know, like, perfect opportunity here.

Brandon Davis:
But it does— it takes you— it's a, it's a bit of a time jump. It takes you back to, you know, June Allyson's film debut 13 years earlier in Best Foot Forward, where she and Harry James, um, you know.

Tony Maietta:
But in Two Girls and a Sailor, she sang. She sang the same song with Harry James. Oh, my question is, change your freaking hairstyle. I mean, what the hell? I got that kind of stuff. And then my— just really quickly, not to interrupt you, Brandon— and then she sings that song right after that and she's dubbed. Now wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. So they get this Joanne Greer to— she just sang 5 minutes ago and now she's singing again with a completely different voice.

Brandon Davis:
And America knows what June Allyson sounds like. It's not like she's Cyd Charisse.

Tony Maietta:
Her voice was her calling card, her voice, like Margaret Sullivan, you know. She had that wonderful voice that was grating a little bit in this movie, but they dub her in the second song. I'm like, how stupid did they think people were? I get worked up about that stuff.

Ben Burke:
Well, no, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely— she's not this husky torch, husky jazzy torch singer. I mean, she is, she has a husky voice. She sings like a, you know, tenor 1 basically. Um, but she— yeah, it's just, it's, it's a different is they shouldn't have done it. But that's Dory Sherry's MGM. Look at that.

Tony Maietta:
L.B.

Ben Burke:
Mayer would've never done that. This is also post-war, so.

Brandon Davis:
No. Well, and, well, and L.B., well, and L.B. loved Joan Allison, so he would've had her.

Tony Maietta:
She called him Pops.

Brandon Davis:
She called him Pops. He told him he gave her, he gave her away when she married Dick Powell.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So funny. She, and some, she loved him and some hated him.

Brandon Davis:
She loved him. Elizabeth Taylor hated him. She loved him. Jane Powell loved him. I mean, I mean, uh, yeah, Judy Garland certainly had her issue. Yeah. It's just so funny how everybody had— just so funny how everybody had a different story when it came down to it.

Tony Maietta:
Hepburn. Hepburn had a great deal of respect for, for Mayer too. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
Miller loved him. Um, yeah.

Ben Burke:
It's just, well, I mean, well, hey, I recently watched an interview with Joan Rivers where she asks her, were you L.B.

Tony Maietta:
Mayer's girlfriend?

Ben Burke:
She's like, ah, no, he liked to dance with me, but we were never boyfriend and girlfriend.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Dance euphemism, I think. I know, dance euphemism.

Brandon Davis:
So we didn't, we didn't cover, you know, we mentioned them real quick, but I do think the, the, the, you know, the male performance that's better than Leslie Nielsen's in this is Jeff Richards as Buck Winston. And this, and they were, I think they were trying to capitalize off the success of, you know, Seven Brides, you know, just 2 years before. Although they seem to forget that Jeff Richards was the one brother in the movie who didn't sing or dance.

Ben Burke:
Well, and that's the thing, you go back and rewatch the movie. I didn't realize it until several years ago. Every time they start dancing, Jeff Richards runs off the screen and you barely catch him. But each time you watch him run off the screen, it's like there's 6 women.

Brandon Davis:
Every once in a while, you know, a girl will leap into his arms or something.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, that's probably it.

Tony Maietta:
But speaking of Jeff Richards, what was up with that date rape scene with him and June Allyson? I didn't know. In the boat.

Ben Burke:
Sexual assault.

Tony Maietta:
He does this with all of these divorces. It's in like, God, the '50s. The '50s. What a whacked out mentality.

Brandon Davis:
At least June could handle herself. At least she like—

Tony Maietta:
oh, she could.

Brandon Davis:
She left him in the canoe with his guitar.

Tony Maietta:
She got a couple good feels and then she jumped right in the boat, uh, in the lake. It was great. She's looking for Shelley Winters. Is this the lake Shelley Winters?

Ben Burke:
Anyway. I know they're both skinnier in the water.

Brandon Davis:
No, but yeah, it's, uh, man, this is the, the, this whole, this whole movie is just an odd compendium of so many different—

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brandon Davis:
But, but it is. And you know, we mentioned on top though, it's so fun to see these little bits by character actors who you just love, like Alice Pierce, um, just pop in or whatever, who really make the most of this. And like I said, Carolyn Jones, to me, anytime she's on screen I can't take my eyes off of her.

Tony Maietta:
I love all of the— I love all of these actresses in different movies. That's the problem here. If you— what do you like about the, the opposite sex? I love the actresses in different parts, in different movies. Yeah, every one of them. You know, it— this— they're just— they just don't gel. It just doesn't come together.

Ben Burke:
No, no. And did I tell you guys that Carolyn Jones is from my hometown? Of course.

Brandon Davis:
You don't say.

Ben Burke:
I— yes, Amarillo, Texas. No, but actually, interesting enough, her little sister was my grandmother's age, and they went to the same school. And according to my grandmother, they were pretty good friends. And she said she went over to her house several times, and Carolyn Jones was very quiet. She would never talk to her or any other friends she had over, but, um, just her little sister.

Tony Maietta:
So anyway, stunning woman, just a stunning—

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
And, and, you know, she's— she has so many, uh, scenes with Joan Collins in this. And wasn't she— she was married to Aaron Spelling, um, you know, around this time too. And who Everything is, you know, Hollywood is such a small community and everything. It's so— I think that that's what's so interesting too. Yeah. But no, I just, I just think, as we said, in the— that this movie was just in the wrong hands. Joe Pastranak was the right producer for this, but they needed to put a Chuck Walters or a George Sidney or something.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, absolutely.

Ben Burke:
Or Minnelli, or even bring Cukor back to bring some pace and breathe some life into this.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, some life into this. They needed a gay man. I don't know. I don't know David Miller's sexual orientation. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume he was straight.

Ben Burke:
I would never date a man like that.

Tony Maietta:
But I'm like, this, this needs a gay man. This film needs a gay man to direct it.

Brandon Davis:
So not, so not George Sidney, he was straight. But so yeah, Chuck Walters or—

Tony Maietta:
Chuck Walters or George Cukor or Vincente Minnelli. I really, I mean, to get these women, to get the energy of these women and the, the pathos of these women and the just the insanity of these women. You need that.

Ben Burke:
So I don't know if we have time, but if you had to recast this movie, let's say you were Joe Pasternak in 1995 at MGM.

Brandon Davis:
Oh my goodness.

Ben Burke:
How would you cast this movie?

Brandon Davis:
Oh wow.

Tony Maietta:
Oh my goodness. Oh wow. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I love the Eleanor Parker.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Uh, example. I'm gonna take a plead the fifth on that.

Brandon Davis:
I really, I think so. I didn't have an issue with Doris Day. I don't think in this either. Because I think Doris Day is, as you saw in Pillow Talk a few years later, Doris Day's sexy. And I think that she could have pulled it off. I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
But you need an actress with some fire in her somewhere. You know, everything about, you know, I'm not the biggest Norma Shearer fan, but Norma Shearer had some fire in her. You had to bank it, but there was fire in there. And you need an actress who can then make that ending believable. The whole Jungle Red ending is incredible. Oh wow, who— I think the ultimate Crystal would have been Marilyn, but Marilyn probably would never have done something like— I don't know, '56 maybe?

Brandon Davis:
'56, this is the year she did Bus Stop.

Tony Maietta:
Bus Stop, right. Wouldn't have done it, but—

Ben Burke:
Would Zanuck have given MGM Marilyn? Probably not.

Tony Maietta:
No, but in a dream world— I mean, she kind of is Crystal.

Brandon Davis:
Although a year later he loaned her out for Prince of the Showgirls.

Ben Burke:
Oh, that's right.

Brandon Davis:
So I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
Well, she had that contract.

Brandon Davis:
She had that— oh, that's true.

Tony Maietta:
She could go do other things. Wow. That's, that's a, that's a tough one. Um, who else? Who else? Who else? Who else? The, the 5th 39. Who would you— let me ask you, Ben. Let me turn around on you, Ben.

Ben Burke:
Who would you—

Tony Maietta:
do you have ideas?

Ben Burke:
So I thought about this. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Obviously.

Ben Burke:
Obviously. Obviously. I think now this would've been a historical, historical, just like impossibility. Um, it would have been so interesting to see Judy in the lead role.

Tony Maietta:
Hmm.

Ben Burke:
Uh, because she has fire in her. She's still a little bit like June Allyson in the fact that she's the girl next door, but she's more interesting than June Allyson.

Brandon Davis:
She's a June Allyson who can act, who has a better voice.

Ben Burke:
Yes, exactly. They could have done more with the musical numbers with Judy, even though it's not supposed to be a musical. Um, I think for box office sake, it would have been hysterical and interesting to see Sylvia Fowler and Edith Phelps, played by Lucille Ball and Vivian Vance.

Tony Maietta:
Oh my God, that would have been—

Brandon Davis:
Tony, we got our Lucy moment. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Got our Lucy moment, folks. Thank you, Ben, for our Lucy moment. Lucy would be a fabulous— at this time too, would have been a fabulous Sylvia.

Ben Burke:
Oh, so good.

Tony Maietta:
Fabulous.

Brandon Davis:
So good.

Ben Burke:
Well, and we've never talked about Lucy. I hear that you love Lucy. I love Lucy, Tony.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Ben Burke:
But it— when she would— We all love Lucy. We all love Lucy. Her first time at MGM under that contract, And you may hate me for saying this. It was almost like she had not completely found her sea legs as an actor.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, no, she hadn't.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, yeah. Until Desi Arnaz put her in front of an audience, she did not know who she was on camera.

Tony Maietta:
Finding Lucy, finding the character was a long process.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Benefiting from working with Buster Keaton at MGM, benefiting from working with Eddie Sedgwick at MGM and Desi and the writers.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
No, no, no, no, no, no.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
She took a long time to find that character, and that's why she never let go of it. But by this point, we're talking '56, the height of I Love Lucy. We just talked about Maimed on— Maimed, I just called it Maimed— Mame on the podcast. And this is the type of sophisticated character Lucy could play because it was farce. She is not believable as a high society woman. There's just too much edge to her. But when she can do a farce, that's when she's funny. And she would've been— I love that casting, Ben.

Tony Maietta:
I love that casting.

Brandon Davis:
I do too. I do too. And I, and I love, and I love the idea of Vivian, uh, too.

Tony Maietta:
I think she would be a perfect Ethel.

Ben Burke:
She is.

Tony Maietta:
I just called her Ethel. Edith.

Ben Burke:
She's Edith.

Tony Maietta:
Edith. She's a perfect Edith. She's perfect as Edith.

Ben Burke:
Well, and he—

Tony Maietta:
okay.

Brandon Davis:
Once again, it'd be a menopausal baby, but I, I don't care.

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
I, I mean, well, Bill Frawley is the husband too. I know.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, good Lord.

Ben Burke:
That wouldn't of— anyway, um, he— Edith has some of my favorite lines in the first— in the first Women, and they go by so quickly. I see no evil, I hear no evil, I speak no evil.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Ben Burke:
And then at the very end, Edith, I hate you.

Tony Maietta:
Pardon me, girls, while I unswallow. I love that one.

Ben Burke:
Well, and then right before they go to the party, she's like, ah, I wish I weren't going either. I hate this dress. My husband says I look like I'm going to sing in it. And I thought it was so— but yes, Vivian Vance. I also think Amanda and Sheridan, if she had the right coaching, the right direction, if it was the right script, it would have been perfect. I also think, now bear with me here, Joan Crawford might have been able to play that role, which would have been interesting casting because she was in the original. And you think of her, what is that, that 1960s television show she did that was never picked up. Della? Della? Where she has all the gray hair and she's— oh, you don't know what I'm talking about.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Ben Burke:
Um, she might have been able to carry that off. I don't know if she would have been able to— I just hate them cutting that mother character out because Jessie Royce Landis would have been able to be the Countess perfectly well.

Tony Maietta:
Well, no, because it makes no sense to have Ann Sheridan, one of her contemporaries, warning her about her other friends. It has to be the older wise owl. Lucille, you know what I mean? Lucille Watson. That's the whole point. She's saying don't trust your girlfriends. It doesn't have the import if you're— another one of your girlfriends is saying that. She just sounds like a bitch. There's—

Ben Burke:
I know, but that's about 7 for a lady. Okay, could— if they kept the mother character in at this point, do you think Billie Burke could have played her mother? I mean, she had some— so she wasn't much longer for the screen or the stage, but she had—

Tony Maietta:
For the world, by the way.

Ben Burke:
For the world. She had some deep moments. And Dinner at Eight, you go watch the ending of that, it's heartbreaking. Her performance in that, she could be more than just a featherhead.

Brandon Davis:
Or take it in a different direction. What about Myrna Loy?

Ben Burke:
Oh, I love that, Brandon.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah. I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
What was wrong with Agnes Moorehead? Her name was Mrs. Moorehead. Why not?

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, that's true.

Tony Maietta:
I know.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, that's true. You know what I was thinking? What about Bette Davis as the Countess?

Tony Maietta:
Did she put herself up for it? Probably.

Brandon Davis:
She probably did.

Tony Maietta:
She probably wanted to do it. I can sing, I'm Bette Davis. Yeah, probably.

Ben Burke:
You know who Joe Pasternak also went after was Marlene Dietrich and Miriam Hopkins. He never said who he wanted them for, but those are two that— I mean, all this different casting, it would have made different movies each time.

Brandon Davis:
I could have seen Miriam Hopkins as the Countess too. Yeah, she was great at playing insane.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. The Countess is one of those roles though. Wow. I mean, how do you ever top Mary Boland? How can you possibly?

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
You're right. It's such a perfect, perfect performance and not nominated for Supporting Actress Oscar. What? Hello?

Ben Burke:
I know.

Tony Maietta:
What's up with that? I always think about that with Joan too, but you know Joan wouldn't have accepted it. She'd be like, I'm not— I wouldn't accept a Supporting Oscar.

Ben Burke:
What are you doing?

Tony Maietta:
But I really feel like That's— Moorhead did the best job she could possibly do. You know, if you're gonna go to someone to do that part, then might as well go to one of the greatest actresses of all time, Agnes Moorhead, you know. And but how do you cast Mary— I mean, that part, what a delicious role that is. No.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
So Ben, this is a question you asked Emmett and I when we did High Society, so I'll ask this question again. What's your favorite costume in this?

Ben Burke:
In this?

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Ben Burke:
Oh, um, Um, it's like choosing a favorite child, Brandon.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah.

Ben Burke:
I really like the, the most outlandish, and probably my favorite, is 2. First, that, that emerald green dress that Dolores Gray wears with the, the things that puff out on the side. But also that black bouffant dress she has on at the very end is just wonderful and delicious. And this is like a 1950s episode of RuPaul's Drag Race. Grace in many ways because it's like, what are they gonna come out in next, you know?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Brandon Davis:
Tony, do you have a favorite costume?

Tony Maietta:
Well, you know, I'm not a big costume person. Well, not that I don't appreciate them. Uh, I love Dolores Gray's, uh, costume when she— the one that Ben talked about when they come to the party and she pulls up the, the sides of it, you know what I mean? That's fab. And it also shows what Dolores Gray, if she had just been given something to work with, could have done little moments like that. I guarantee you David Miller didn't tell her to do that. No, no, that was something the actress came up with. And you know what? That's what this film needed was more people saying, do this, do that, fill these characters in, you know?

Brandon Davis:
Yeah. It just, I just, every time I see Dolores Gray in a movie, I just think it's too bad she just came along so late because she could have been, you know, she's, she did those 4 movies at MGM. She did Fair Weather and Kismet, this, and then Designing Woman, which she's great in too with Bacall and, uh, and Gregory Peck. And then, you know, You know, they, they got rid of her contract just to save budget, but then she went and, you know, did stage work and television work and all of that, went to England. But what a dynamic performer she is. I mean, she's just, you can't take your eyes off of her when she's on screen.

Tony Maietta:
No, almost too big for screen. Almost too big.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So it's, it's not surprising she had the greatest success in theater cuz she's almost too big, but God, what a talent. What a talent that woman was. Yeah. And, you know, wasted.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, no, so many people wasted in this movie.

Tony Maietta:
So many.

Ben Burke:
So many wasted opportunities.

Brandon Davis:
It's fun. It's fun to watch. I don't, you know, I don't want to discourage anyone who hasn't seen it before from listening to this to not go and watch it because it's— you'll find things to have fun with if you enjoy laughing at, you know, things that were done badly.

Tony Maietta:
Well, you know, as Ben said, guilty pleasure. And we're doing guilty pleasures on Going Hollywood, and this is This is another perfect example of guilty pleasure. It's a fun confection to watch. It really, really is.

Ben Burke:
Yeah, I mean, it is. It's— it stylistically, I wish they would have taken Paige from like Reluctant Debutante and Auntie Mame 2 years later because that would have worked so well, those madcap comedies. But, uh, it doesn't work. It's so many— so the thing is, yes, absolutely watch this movie. Sit down and watch The Women with the subtitles on. You're gonna have a great time. It moves so quickly. For this, have several drinks.

Ben Burke:
Have so many drinks that you can't remember what your name is, and then turn it on.

Tony Maietta:
A drinking game. Yeah, a drinking game. Every time— hopefully every time June Allison opens her mouth, take it, take a drink, because that's the only way you're gonna get through that performance. Speaking of reluctant debutante, can you imagine Kay Kendall in something like this?

Ben Burke:
I thought about this morning.

Brandon Davis:
Or Angela Lansbury. She's a reluctant debutante too.

Tony Maietta:
Angela Lansbury could have played the mother. There you go.

Brandon Davis:
She could have played anything at this point in 1956. Absolutely. Yeah, no, so many different directions they could have gone with this. But you know, this movie, it was nominated for a Golden Globe for Best Musical Comedy. One Golden Globe. Best Picture.

Ben Burke:
That sucked. Also, while I'm thinking about it, before we get off, do we realize that the, um, the nightclub, the Skylight Room, and And the dressing room, all of that has been refashioned from the set in Kismet. All of that paneling and that giant—

Tony Maietta:
What an eye, Ben. What an eye.

Ben Burke:
Well, the giant mural behind, like when Kay goes over and talks to Steven Crystal, that giant mural is in the harem when they do Rahat Lakoum in Kismet.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, yeah.

Ben Burke:
So I think that is fascinating. And then the orchestra is playing when Kay enters. They're playing, um, what is it? Uh, oh, My— is it My Lucky Star from Meet Me in Las Vegas?

Brandon Davis:
Which is the same year.

Ben Burke:
So they were trying to— yeah.

Brandon Davis:
See, he is— you were in the second opinion on like the— on the, uh, B.

Tony Maietta:
Wow, that's amazing.

Ben Burke:
I've seen too many.

Tony Maietta:
I haven't seen Kismet in so long.

Brandon Davis:
It's been a while.

Ben Burke:
Wow. And it's a weird trick that I have because I was recently rewatching Prison presenting Lily Mars, and I was like, oh, this is the nightclub from Broadway Rhythm. And it is. They recycled it for that same— anyway.

Brandon Davis:
Yeah, you know what, you know what, um, I, I was thinking back to the first time I saw this, and it was Joan Collins was hosting an evening. She was the guest programmer on TCM with Robert Osborne, and she picked— you know, they always had you pick 4 movies or whatever— she picked The Original Women and she picked lists to show side by side. And her reasoning was, I just think it's always unfairly compared to The Women, and I want people to enjoy it on its own. And I thought, well, good for you, Joan.

Ben Burke:
But don't pick it to be right next to The Women.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly, right next to it.

Brandon Davis:
I know, I'm like, Joan shouldn't have picked The Women, she just should have picked that too.

Tony Maietta:
But do you think people do that with High Society and Philadelphia Story, or do you think—

Brandon Davis:
I don't think as much, just because, just because with High Society you've First of all, first of all, it's still a great script. It's a good score, and you've got Crosby and Sinatra and Celeste Holmes.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brandon Davis:
It's just, it's just a perfect confection that way. And they don't really do that with, um, Ninotchka and Silk Stockings even, because Silk Stockings is so different because you've got Astaire and, you know, Theresa Janis Page, who's wonderful in that. Um, so yeah, this one is just, I think, that kind of anomaly in terms of the musical remake of a '30s, '40s comedy.

Tony Maietta:
Well, you know, and designed— I mean, Silk Stockings obviously was on Broadway before.

Brandon Davis:
And it was a Broadway show before.

Tony Maietta:
Broadway. And then this, and then High Society became a Broadway show.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So they both— and but hello, The Women, Broadway play. I mean, there are bones here that they just— they didn't musicalize this. They just stuffed in these songs and called it a musical, which is the most boring kind of musical. Yeah, there is, because the movie stops and we watch the song about a banana. Granted, he is adorable, I will definitely give you that. Yeah, but why are we watching a song about bananas other than to see Joan Blondell turn green? I mean, I— it's just so silly.

Ben Burke:
It doesn't make— well, and there is that joke there, but it's not play— it's not paced well. It's not— no, no, it's like the worst ver— okay, people are gonna hate me for this, but it's like the worst timing in Will and Grace. There are moments in Will and Grace where I'm like, this is not good comedy. That's what happens with the banana. It's like, yes, she's sick. Vivian Vance could have done that so much better.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, totally. So much better. Totally. Oh, just thinking about it now. Lucy and Viv watching that.

Tony Maietta:
That's my dream, Ben. That's a dream. I don't wanna be thinking about that.

Brandon Davis:
Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh. Well, I guess that's a great way to close this out. Definitely. This has been so much fun having the two of you. We'll have to do this again as a threesome sometime. Definitely, Tony. A lot of fun.

Brandon Davis:
And then, uh, yeah, and then, uh, Ben, definitely. I hope, uh, I hope the Going Hollywood audience appreciated your presence.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, well, Ben, and, and Ben just confirmed before we start recording, he is going to be a guest on Going Hollywood too.

Brandon Davis:
So we're going to—

Tony Maietta:
we are going to figure that out too, because it's just the wealth of knowledge that between you— I said to them before we started, I'm like, please go easy on the old man, because between the two of you, when you talked about young men with a horn, I was just like, what? How? I'm always saying this to Brandon. I'm like, how do you remember these esoteric facts so quickly? And then the same thing. So, you really kept me on my toes and I appreciate it for a Saturday afternoon.

Ben Burke:
Well, first of all, Tony, you look younger than the both of us. So, don't even start with me. Don't even start with me. Brandon sent me a picture of you and I was like, who is this 35-year-old? And it was— Oh, he's 87.

Brandon Davis:
I sent him the picture of us together at Carol Burnett's apartment building when we were in LA.

Tony Maietta:
We broke into Carol Burnett's. We didn't tell people that, did we? Hey, audience. We finally got— I finally got into Carol Burnett's apartment building.

Brandon Davis:
You did, and he took me with him.

Ben Burke:
Oh, that's fantastic.

Tony Maietta:
And we got a photo in front of the one-room apartment she grew up in. Yeah, that was, that was brilliant. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. You're welcome.

Ben Burke:
Also, I think we had such a great time today bashing this movie. We should find something else that we all hate and get back together again. Let's do it. Not An American in Paris.

Brandon Davis:
I would never bash— I would never bash An American in Paris.

Tony Maietta:
Well, we could do Yolanda and the Thief or something. You take me wrong there.

Brandon Davis:
Oh my gosh. Yolanda the thief. My gosh. Um, no, but, um, yeah, no, I, it's, uh, no, this was, this was a lot of fun and yeah, we will, we will have to do this again. And, uh, I'm always, uh, always happy to, uh, talk to Tony. Tony and I hopefully at some point we'll, uh, also collaborate on something again.

Tony Maietta:
So. Yeah, definitely. Well, you're coming on this again this year too, so.

Brandon Davis:
Oh, that's right. That's right. Maybe you didn't know that. To talk a little Spice Land and, uh.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're, so this was so much fun. Thank you for including me.

Ben Burke:
Yeah.