Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to going Hollywood.

Tony Maietta:
So Brad, right off the top, I have a quiz for you.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, I love quizzes.

Tony Maietta:
Are you ready?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes.

Tony Maietta:
Pencils down, pencils down. What movie does this movie that we're going to be talking about today remind you of?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, that's not a quiz. That's ridiculously easy because I thought about through this entire film I can't remember which one came first. Either this is the remake of Baby Face or Baby Face was the remake of this. It was, it was so similar in every way.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it's not. It wasn't a remake because there was only— Baby Face was '33 and this was '32.

Brad Shreve:
Okay. No, it wasn't a remake, but they're very similar.

Tony Maietta:
But yeah, so that, yeah, that was a pretty easy— I want to start you off easy with this because we are indeed talking about Baby Face. Baby Face. See, I just did it. We are indeed talking about Red-Headed Woman today. It was a listener request from Megan, who actually requested this just last week. We read it, and here we are already. Instant gratification here, Megan. From MGM in 1932.

Tony Maietta:
And the reason I was giving that quiz to Brad was because last season— very— no, 2 seasons ago, our very first year, one of our earliest episodes, we talked about, you know, the poster child for Pre-Code, which is Baby Face. And the entire time I'm rewatching Red-Headed Woman, I'm thinking, my God, it's Baby Face. The plot is so similar, it's almost plagiaristic. I'm telling you right now.

Brad Shreve:
It really is, right down to, you know, in Baby Face you had the father-in-law trying to help the son-in-law, whereas this you had the father trying to help the son against the— you know, it's all— it's never the man's fault. It's always her charm that makes men unable to resist themselves, as it's always been through history. So I got a kick out of it. It's the same thing.

Tony Maietta:
It's so similar. Here's just some of— here's some of the similarities I found when I was watching it this time. Did you notice this? So both characters in Baby Face and Red-Headed Woman are named Lillian. They have the same name. It's Lillian Baby Face, and it's Lil in Red-Headed Woman. So I'm like, there is no opport— there is no attempt here to disguise anything. And Darryl Zanuck, who wrote Baby Face, at Warner Brothers the following year using a nom de plume. I'd be like, Darryl Zanuck, what the hell? This is almost, I mean, the same name.

Tony Maietta:
They both start out in small towns. Now in Baby Face, it's Erie, Pennsylvania. In Red-Headed Woman, it's a small town in Ohio. So hello. They both end up in Paris. There are some big differences though. And I think that we'll obviously talk about that when we get into it. But I just found it striking that— Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Baby Face was kind of the Warner Brothers version of Red-Headed Woman. Red-Headed Woman was first, and then Baby Face. But whereas Baby Face, it was a quickie, a cheapie made in less than 3 weeks, MGM didn't really make cheapies, okay? They made B-level films, they made B films, but even their B films were A films for the best studios. I mean, for other studios, their B films would be considered A films. So this is not a, this is not a quickie. This is— MGM put money into this movie. But I just think it's so amazing that the plots are so similar and nobody really said anything. At least I don't think so.

Brad Shreve:
I don't remember how much it cost to make Baby Face, but this one clearly had a bigger budget. It was obvious from the sets and everything else. I have a couple questions. One, you know, this one was based on a novel by Katherine Bush. Was Baby Face based on a novel, or did they just steal from the novel and not give her credit?

Tony Maietta:
It was an original story by Darryl F. Zanuck, who—

Brad Shreve:
So he just stole the story and didn't—

Tony Maietta:
Basically, the name he used for Baby Face was Mark Canfield. So in the credits of Baby Face, it says original story, air quotes, original story by Mark Canfield. It's basically Red-Headed Woman with Barbara Stanwyck instead of— and I mean, there are some similarities. Baby Face, as we said, and if anybody wants you know, I don't wanna go too much into Baby Face. Just go back into our history, and it's like our 3rd or 4th episode of the series.

Brad Shreve:
A very fun movie.

Tony Maietta:
Baby Face, a lot of fun. Really, really, really pushes the envelope much more than Red-Headed Woman does. But still, they're both pretty risqué films and pretty salacious films. And one of the reasons why, you know, the Legion of Decency and the Production Code Administration and the censors and the religious groups and the women's groups all got up in arms about these films that later ended up causing the Code to be strictly enforced in '34.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, Lil was quite the shameless hussy trying to get ahead through her body, we should say.

Tony Maietta:
But what's delicious about Red-Headed Woman, and thank you, Megan, for suggesting Red-Headed Woman. What's delicious about Red-Headed Woman, I feel, is our star, is the incomparable Jean Harlow. Now, we talked about Baby Face being kind of like a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, far as Barbara Stanwyck's attitude. Like, she's looking at the audience going, I can't believe this shit either, but just stay around because it's so out there. But, I mean, Red-Headed Woman was purposely designed as a comedy. An interesting comedy, not like Bringing Up Baby, not a screwball, but it is, it does have a humorous tone for a very, very good reason. Do you want to venture a guess as to why that is, Brad? Why it was given a humorous tilt, if you will?

Brad Shreve:
First, I want to say that's interesting because I thought maybe it was just me that was getting a kick out of it. I didn't know it was intentional. My belief is that softens the blow and makes it a little—

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
So it passes the studio heads and that sort of thing easier.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, because the original— did you know this? On this film, one of the original writers on this film was none other than F. Scott Fitzgerald. I mean, you know, this is when he was writing for Hollywood films.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, and I know he did a lot of writing. I didn't know this one.

Tony Maietta:
He did, and he was uncredited. He began working on this film, actually turning this— the novel, it's based on a 1931 novel by Katherine Bush, and he was the first writer, I believe the first writer, to come on and turn this into a screenplay. But they knew they had, they had to, had to, had to give this a humorous slant for for it to get past the Production Code. It had a much better chance of getting past the PCA. Even though the PCA, the code was not being strictly enforced, there were still censorship boards, there were still laws in states against obscenity. They knew it would have a better chance for it to get past if they gave it a humorous tone. That's why, and we'll get into the plot of the film, but that's why the film begins with those 2 brief scenes.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
Those were added. And do you want to tell the people a little bit about what those 2 scenes are, Brad, that begin the film?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, so the first thing you see in the film, and I wanted to look and see if this is in the book, and I didn't, because I seriously doubt that it is. I think this was for the audience. And you see Ms. Harlow sitting there. She just had a dye job, and she looks in the mirror and says, so gentlemen prefer blondes, Do they? And she's a redhead. And like I said, my guess is that was for the audience, who all knew that she was really a blonde. Probably not in the novel.

Tony Maietta:
It's twofold. It's because Harlow, even at this early point in her career, was known as the Platinum Blonde, because in every film she'd done before this, she was a platinum blonde. She had just done a film before this called Platinum Blonde. And secondly, because the second screenwriter brought on to work on this was none other than Anita Loos. whose most famous work was Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. So right at the beginning, we're getting a wink wink from— so gentlemen prefer blondes, do they? I'll say they do. And she's a redhead. So that's the first thing.

Tony Maietta:
That's your first little meta moment in this movie.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't catch that.

Tony Maietta:
Do you remember the second scene? The second scene that kind of sets this comedic, comedic tone when she's trying on the dress?

Brad Shreve:
No, I just watched this movie.

Tony Maietta:
So right after that, I'll say they do. And then it gets to another scene with little— with Lil Andrews, Jean Harlow, trying on a dress. And she asks the salesperson, can you see through this? And the salesperson says, I'm afraid you can. And she says, I'll wear it.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, I thought that was spectacular. I loved that. And I just am not getting the scenes in the right order. You had me going off to a different scene. I don't think that was the beginning. Yeah, both of those were precious. I loved them.

Tony Maietta:
Sets the tone for the film that this is a funny movie. And those scenes were put in after, as I said, after the original screenplay was written. Those scenes were put in by Anita Loos to let audiences know, don't take this seriously, folks. This is a comedy.

Brad Shreve:
The see-through dress line really set the tone, and I loved that. I can't even imagine the movie without it because it just jumped out. I did do one thing. I was curious about the novel and the film because of the time period. And we know that as a rule, films always got toned down. So I just, I didn't go deep into the novel. I just wanted to find out what the differences were as far as the, what they got away with. And unlike After Code, the novel was more tame than the film.

Tony Maietta:
Hmm. Really?

Brad Shreve:
She had consequences at the end of the novel. Here, she gets away with everything. You know, except I kind of feel like on the inside she was still empty. So I kind of had a moral ending to me. The novel apparently was more subtle and the sexual contact was more implied.

Tony Maietta:
Mm-hmm.

Brad Shreve:
Here it was pretty obvious. I mean, granted, the wife shows up. Chester Morris's wife shows up. Who is he? Bill Legrand? Legrand?

Tony Maietta:
Legender.

Brad Shreve:
Legender. Okay.

Tony Maietta:
It's a very, it's a very American pronunciation of what I think probably is Legendre, but they call him Legender. Mr. Legender. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
So, you know, like the scene where Bill Legender's wife, Irene, she shows up at the house. We see the door close for, seems like an hour, but it's probably about 10 seconds. And then Jean Harlow comes out. Fully dressed. And then we cut back to the living room, and Chester Morris is standing there fully dressed in a suit. And I'm like, no, no, no, she didn't walk in on them. She walked on them. They were having sex.

Tony Maietta:
Something was going on.

Brad Shreve:
And then suddenly, he's standing there in a suit. Did he get on a suit so they could have a discussion about what happened? So that I found hysterical. But if nothing else, maybe they weren't having sex, but he certainly wasn't sitting in there in a suit. But apparently in the novel, it was even tamer than that. It was very subtle about the sexual things. And it just showed me the difference between pre-code, where they jazzed up the film.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And after, when code started and they had to tone down the salaciousness.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So basically what Red-Headed Woman is about is Jean Harlow plays an ambitious gold digger who manipulates her way into high society. Now, I read that description, and I'm like, okay, well, like in Baby Face, she does a little bit more than manipulate here. You know what I mean?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Not quite as blatant as Baby Face, but she basically, and I'm using this euphemistically, sleeps her way up the social ladder. And it's, you know, the thing about these Pre-Codes is these type of characters like La Landru's, like Lily Powers in Baby Face. They're kind of the female answer to the gangster film. Because on the one hand, you had, you know, this was the Depression. Times were tough. Americans were looking for a way to better themselves. So on the one hand, on the male end, you had the gangster who was breaking laws and doing immoral things in order to get ahead. And on the female end, you had what the females had, which was their— the power of their sexuality.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
to get ahead. So these were very popular characters during the Pre-Code era. And needless to say, they all went bye-bye once the Code was enforced in July of 1934. But Brad, before we go any further, should we introduce these characters that are in this film?

Brad Shreve:
So, of course, we have our lead, Jean Harlow, as Lil Andrews. And as she described herself, she is from the other side of the tracks. She is cunning, ambitious, a redhead stenographer, at least artificial redhead. And she lets her friend know, and I have to think about her friends, is it Sally?

Tony Maietta:
Yes, Sally.

Brad Shreve:
That she is gonna climb the social ladder. And she does it through manipulation, as she says. Not subtle manipulation, that's for sure.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, there's no prelude to this. She starts, she's on her way. We get in on grounds, on the ground floor with her. You know, you don't care about her backstory. She's on her— she's got her mission and she's going from the first reel of this film.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, this is a fun film, but if you're looking for character development, move on. There is none. The only thing we know about Lil from beginning to end is she wants to climb the social ladder. That's pretty much her personality.

Tony Maietta:
As we say all the time, this is not Ingmar Bergman in Death Playing Chess. This is a Pre-Code film from 1932.

Brad Shreve:
No, no, not at all. Then we have Bill, played by Chester Morris, and he is the main target throughout the movie. He's wealthy. He's married to his loving wife Irene. He's an executive, son of the company owner, and she destroys his marriage and then continues to destroy his wife throughout the film, or at least tries to. Then we have Irene, and You know, I always have to put my head in the space of the time periods because I just like— she's being way too kind to Bill and his philandering ways and that sort of thing. But she is the wife who divorces her husband. And I— am I right? She moved across the street?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well, you know, small town. Small town.

Brad Shreve:
Ah, the range. I could see if they had children. I just found that very strange. But it's a small town. You know, the wealthy area is probably a block. And then we—

Tony Maietta:
I want to say played by Layla Hyams.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, Layla Hyams. Yes. And then we had Louis Stone played William— what? How did they pronounce the name again?

Tony Maietta:
Legender.

Brad Shreve:
Just think of gender.

Tony Maietta:
It's as American as you can get. Legender.

Brad Shreve:
Legender instead of Legender.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, exactly.

Brad Shreve:
Also known as Old Man. He is Bill's father and the company owner. His real whole role is to be stodgy and trying to smooth things over. That's pretty much what his job is.

Tony Maietta:
What Louis Stone usually does.

Brad Shreve:
in the films. Sally was played by Una Merkel. She was Gene Harlow's sounding board, mainly so we can know what Gene Harlow was all about, basically telling her what she was doing each step. And then we have Henry Stephenson as Gertie— is that his last name?

Tony Maietta:
Gersti.

Brad Shreve:
Gersti. Gersti. I can never get his name right. He is a wealthy older businessman who does business with Legender, whatever that name is. I can't say it. He is like their main client, I guess you could say. They do a lot of business with this guy. He becomes Lil's next target.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Much older man. He is incredibly huge, or Chester Morris is incredibly small. And maybe it's a combination of the two.

Tony Maietta:
Both. Chester Morris was not a big guy. He wasn't a big guy.

Brad Shreve:
Okay.

Tony Maietta:
So yeah.

Brad Shreve:
It looked like Yogi and Boo Boo when they were standing there facing each other. I was like, wow, you would not see that today. One of them would be on a box or on their knees. One of the two. Then we had, uh, Mae Robeson. I was so excited to see her play Mrs. Russell.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I love— we love, love Mae Robeson. Any movie with Mae Robeson in it is going to be a fun, a fun little moment with Mae Robeson.

Brad Shreve:
And I had to look her up a little bit because I wanted to know her background a little more, because we— she comes up so often in our movies. And she always seems to play a society woman, or most of the time. And I thought it was very funny. This was only her second talkie. And I saw that, I think it was in 1912, she was in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and she played a prostitute. And I just got a big laugh out of that, because we don't tend to see her as a prostitute in these later films.

Brad Shreve:
For obvious reasons, she's older, but she just plays a whole different character. She might be a fun-loving society woman, but she always seems to be a society woman.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it's funny you should say that, because, yeah, she was a society woman in Bringing Up Baby. She plays Katharine Hepburn's Aunt Elizabeth in Bringing Up Baby. She was also in A Star Is Born. Remember, she played the grandmother in the very first A Star Is Born.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
But she's probably most famous as Apple Annie in the very first Lady for a Day. But she's a staple of Pre-Code. She's a staple of '30s films. She's a wonderful, wonderful comic supporting actress.

Brad Shreve:
Now, wait a minute. You said Lady for a Day. Is this the first movie from Pocketful of Miracles? The Bette Davis film?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, that was remade as Pocketful of Miracles with Bette as Apple Annie.

Brad Shreve:
I had no idea. I love Pocketful of Miracles. I don't think it was— it was pretty slow, and I don't think it was really well done, but I still love the premise so much. I love that movie. Now I have to go back and watch this one.

Tony Maietta:
Watch Lady for a Day. Frank Capra. It's a wonderful film. Wonderful film. She got an Oscar nomination for it.

Brad Shreve:
I look forward to it. Those are the main characters, unless I'm missing somebody.

Tony Maietta:
Well, there's somebody that you missed that comes in at the very end, and I'm only gonna mention him because it's a very small part, but not a very small actor. And that was the part of the chauffeur.

Brad Shreve:
Ah, yes.

Tony Maietta:
Who— did you recognize that actor, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
By face. Um, but no, I didn't remember him.

Tony Maietta:
It was none other than Charles Boyer himself.

Brad Shreve:
Oh my God.

Tony Maietta:
Charles Boyer in one of his very first American films, playing Albert the chauffeur. who has a hand in the end of this film. But it's interesting because, you know, Boyer was a French movie star. And, you know, his very first job in the United States, he was brought over to MGM. MGM brought him over to do the French version of Chester Morris's character in The Big House. Because in early talkies, the studios would frequently make multi-language versions of their movies. For example, Anna Christie, you had the English language version of Anna Christie, but there was also a German language version. And frequently these had— unless you had a star who was multilingual, or they spelled out phonetically for Buster Keaton, you can imagine, they would actually shoot 2 or 3 versions of a film.

Tony Maietta:
So they were filming The Big House during the day with Chester Morris and Robert Montgomery and Wallace Beery. And then at night, the French cast came in and did—

Brad Shreve:
Wow.

Tony Maietta:
The French version. And they did this for a few years until some genius at the studio realized, why don't we just use subtitles? And then we don't have to make 2 or 3 versions of the same frickin movie.

Brad Shreve:
See, this is why you're the film historian. I never knew any of that. That is crazy. That is really crazy.

Tony Maietta:
Buster Keaton made his first talkie. They made a Spanish version of it. It was called Free and Easy. And, and because he was Buster Keaton and nobody really could do what Buster Keaton did, He had to do the Spanish version and he did it phonetically. Now, can you imagine? He had to do an entire film in Spanish phonetically.

Brad Shreve:
Wow.

Tony Maietta:
Thank God that some genius finally figured out, uh, let's just use subtitles and that way we don't have to have all these things. So yeah, that's the cast of this opus.

Brad Shreve:
I want to make a comment about Charles Boyer, but first, something I got to get out before I forget to mention it. I'm sure I wouldn't have. I could not get over this whole film, how Absolutely handsome, Chester Morris is.

Tony Maietta:
Do you think so?

Brad Shreve:
I thought so. I thought his hairstyle was awful, but it fit the era. But I kept thinking and looking at him.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
You know what I kept thinking? This is, uh, I gotta think of his name. Who's the guy that's married to Scarlett Johansson?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, from Saturday Night Live.

Brad Shreve:
What's his name? Colin or—

Tony Maietta:
Colin Jost. Colin Jost. Colin Jost.

Brad Shreve:
Colin Jost. And one second, to me, he looked like Ray Liotta, and the next second, usually from the profile, he looked like Colin Jost. And I don't know why. I just— and I find both of those men attractive in different ways. And I just kept looking at Chester Morris. I kept thinking, he is a really handsome guy.

Tony Maietta:
Do you think so? See, my feelings about Chester Morris is it looks like somebody hit him in the face with a frying pan. It looks like he walked into a wall because he's got a— he's got a very interesting profile, but it's totally flat. And that's so funny because I was watching this with my friend John, and John also had the same reaction. And I was like, really? Chester Morris? Really? I don't get that. But the thing about Chester Morris is, and this is really important, see, when MGM went from silent film to sound films, they lost a lot of their big male stars because— and I'm not going to go into what happened in the transition, but they just did. Some spoke foreign, some, their voices didn't fit their persona. They had very few male stars, a lot of female stars. So their strong male stars were Robert Montgomery, and Chester Morris.

Tony Maietta:
And Chester Morris is really the pre-Gable Clark Gable. Once Clark Gable came into the fore, which was this year, by the way, '31-'32, Chester Morris, bye-bye. Because you see, oh, well, no, this is who we really need. Because Chester Morris usually played— he plays more of a sensitive man in this, but he's usually a very male, very macho actor.

Brad Shreve:
Mm-hmm.

Tony Maietta:
And MGM did not have a lot of those in the early sound era. So this was actually Chester Morris's last big film. After this, he kind of— since Gable came forward, they're like, no, we want that guy. He kind of went to the wayside, unfortunately. He's a good actor. You know, for early talkies. But I don't have the, the oof feeling for Chester Morris as other people do.

Brad Shreve:
No, I found him very handsome. As far as acting goes, I felt like it left a lot to be desired.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
But in general, and I think maybe it's because of the era, I felt more like I was watching a silent film that was dubbed because it had a very silent film feel to it. And I think that's a lot of why there wasn't a lot of character development. I felt like I was watching a fun story, but clearly wasn't a very deep film.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, there weren't a lot of, as we said, I mean, this is, this is early talkies. So this is, there's not a lot, a lot. There were some. films. But, but they were just happy to get this film made and get it done quickly and get it out and make some money. Because this was also '32, which is the—

Brad Shreve:
Mm-hmm.

Tony Maietta:
Deepest part of the Depression. And although MGM didn't feel it, all the other studios were feeling it. So they wanted to get as much money out of these films as they could. That's why they kind of— this one is not a cheapie, as we said. You can really see the production values in this film. MGM did not make cheapies. Even their lowest budget films had a gloss and a glamour that the other studios didn't. But you can still see, you know, this doesn't have the production values of Gone with the Wind.

Tony Maietta:
This doesn't have the production values of the later '30s films. This is, this is a very standard, standard film. Very, very standard melodrama with a touch of comedy in it.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, because I showed the budget at $300,000, which to me, 1932, that seems like a lot of money, if that's accurate.

Tony Maietta:
Mm-hmm.

Brad Shreve:
Now, I never 100% trust movies this old, the numbers to be accurate, because they weren't as accountable back then as they are now. But that's the number I came up with. And the sets were very nice. In fact, one thing that caught me off guard, I felt like Lil and Sally's apartment was awfully nice, and their clothes were awfully, awfully nice for 2 women from the other side of the tracks. But it's because the sets were so well done.

Tony Maietta:
Well, because it was MGM. You know, everybody, even the poorest of people at MGM, had very nice clothing. And you notice the streets. It reminds me of the Gilded Age. The streets are so clean, you know, in these MGM films. That was MGM. That's what MGM did. This film was shot on location in Culver City, and everything was just MGM pristine.

Tony Maietta:
MGM pristine.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, so I gotta make the comment about Charles Boyer.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
I'm really embarrassed. that you told me that it was him. Because as I'm watching the character, I'm listening, I'm like, okay, is this guy French, or did they find someone to do a French accent? And I couldn't decide. I couldn't decide. The movie ended, I wasn't sure. Well, now I know.

Tony Maietta:
It was Charles Boyer. It was Mr. Boyer. So that's really— I mean, come on, that's fantastic, right? I mean, and very, a very handsome, a very handsome young Charles Boyer.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
So before we get into, uh, the background and also You know, I can't not talk about this film. It's called Red-Headed Woman, and not talk about our star, Jean Harlow. Do you want to give the briefest of scenarios of what happens in this film?

Brad Shreve:
Very easy. As we said, Lil is a gold digger. She is a stenographer at Bill's office, and she seduces him at his home, and his wife walks in. This eventually leads to their divorce after she seduces him again. From the very beginning, her only goal is to climb the social ladder. That's all we know about this individual.

Tony Maietta:
That's it.

Brad Shreve:
She says she's from across the tracks. That's all we know of her backstory. And she's climbing the social ladder. So he gets divorced. She marries him. And a lot of the conflict in the film, for what it is, is— and I'm saying these things because I think there's a lot wrong with this film, and it doesn't imply whether I liked it or not. We'll get to that.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, Lord. That's right. We haven't covered that yet.

Brad Shreve:
No. So that does conflict, that people aren't accepting her. For one thing, that Bill, his ex-wife Irene, is beloved by the community. It's a small town. And they know that this woman is a gold digger and they know her backstory. So that's a lot of the conflict. And so she, even though she gets where she wants to be, she's not really where she wants to be. And so she's not happy.

Brad Shreve:
And that kind of at the end is why I feel like she's— in my own internal thing, she looks happy at the end, but I still kind of feel like internally she's probably still a miserable person.

Tony Maietta:
Well, what's interesting about the character of Lil' Andrews is you're right, we have no— there's nothing. Even in Baby Face, we've kind of got a motivation for Barbara Stanwyck's actions.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
We don't. We just know this woman is from the wrong side of the tracks, and she's gonna get on the right side of the tracks, and she's gonna sleep with whoever she has to sleep with. And obviously, I mean that euphemistically. optimistically, to get where she wants to go. And Chester—

Brad Shreve:
She's gonna fuck every man she can to get to the top.

Tony Maietta:
Fuck any man she can to get where she wants to go. And Chester Morris plays her boss. Yes. And I think it's so funny. So, as we said before, if this film was to be presented dramatically, as it was originally written, it probably wouldn't have gotten past the PCA. Even though the code wasn't being enforced that strongly, it was still being enforced. There were still censors. There were still censors in states.

Tony Maietta:
There were still laws. So they had to make it a little funnier. And some of the funnier moments in this scene— so she's— when she grabs Chester Morris's mail and is going to deliver it to his house to do some after-hours dictation, if you will. And one of my favorite things is when she finally gets alone with Chester Morris, she says to him, why, Mr. Legender, you're all I've been able to think about for years. And he says, You've only been working in the office for 2 months. It's this kind of thing. It's this kind of ridiculous thing.

Tony Maietta:
And yes, she seduces him. His wife finds out. She keeps seducing him. They get very physical. She keeps chasing after him. She gets drunk. She goes after him. He gets physical with her.

Tony Maietta:
I wanted to ask you about that, Brad. There's more than one scene where he bats her around. And we're supposed to think this is, I don't know, titillating? We're supposed to think this is— because she takes it and she wants more. She even says, do— after he slaps her, she even says, do it again, I like it. It's—

Brad Shreve:
Yes, I loved that line and it made me laugh. And I don't know if they were doing that, they felt the audience felt like she deserved it and would make them happy, or if there was a sexual aspect to it. I think it was probably sex.

Tony Maietta:
Well, both. I think a little bit of both. You know, this character—

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, a bit of both.

Tony Maietta:
You know, this character, the character of Lilith, what, how it works is because of Gene Harlow, Lil comes across as mischievous rather than calculating or mercenary because of the humor Harlow puts into it. But that being said, there's some violence in this movie. He does batter her around, smacks her, and then she locks him in her bedroom with Una Merkel outside, and she's listening to him batting her around, and she's laying on the floor. But she's locked him in the room. So he picks her up, carries her to the bed, and she's standing there crying— she's laying there crying, shaking. And he says, give me the key so he can get out. And she takes the key and she puts it down her dress. So yeah, so I don't know what they're saying about violence and sexuality here.

Tony Maietta:
It's 1932, it's Pre-Code. You just got to go with it. That's, that's the way it is.

Brad Shreve:
We'll have to presume there was a safe word in there somewhere. Yeah, exactly.

Tony Maietta:
So eventually, yes, eventually they get married. But like, again, another Gilded Age thing, like in The Gilded Age, you know, she's not being allowed into high society. She's, she's a gold digger and it's new money. So she realizes the only way that she can get into high society and get acceptance in high society is if she sleeps with someone else. And this is this big shot in coal that we talked about earlier, Mr. Gerstey. played by Henry Stephenson. So she ends up sleeping with him in order to blackmail him into getting her into high society.

Tony Maietta:
Still doesn't work. She leaves. She goes after him in New York, where she then carries on an affair with Mr. Gersti, who's much older than she is, while she's sleeping with the chauffeur, his chauffeur, at the same time. And that's when Chester Morris comes to town.

Brad Shreve:
Who's—

Tony Maietta:
he's been having her tailed by a private eye who's been taking photos. And another very humorous thing is when he shows the photos—

Brad Shreve:
Oh, those are awesome.

Tony Maietta:
Go ahead, you tell people about it.

Brad Shreve:
The photos show her and the chauffeur, Charles Boyer, kissing each other and frequently literally behind the man's back.

Tony Maietta:
It's so funny.

Brad Shreve:
At one point he's tying his shoes.

Tony Maietta:
He's tying his shoe.

Brad Shreve:
And they're behind him kissing, and it's actually hysterical.

Tony Maietta:
It's— he's actually— he's tying her shoe. He's tying his shoe with his back to them, and they are kissing, and he has photographs of this. It's so funny.

Brad Shreve:
I have to go back to her seducing Bill at his home when she brought the work home for him to sign or go over, whatever. Her legs throughout this film, every time he tried to push himself away, he saw her leg. This was a leg man.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
He would see her legs and he was jelly. Just boom. He couldn't control himself. But what was hysterical to me is she's talking about that she has loved him for, you know, from afar for years. And she shows that she has a locket with his picture on it strapped to her leg under her dress. Now, any smart person at that point would have said, I gotta get the fuck out of here because this person's nuts. But of course he doesn't because he's— you know why? He's blinded by her legs.

Tony Maietta:
Well, just like, yeah, as in Babyface, you know, she's kryptonite to these men. But you know what? It's Jean Harlow. So I can kind of see that a lot.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I love Barbara Stanwyck, don't get me wrong, but it's kind of— it's ludicrous in Baby Face how these men, how these titans of industry are jelly in the hands of Barbara Stanwyck. With Jean Harlow, I can see it a lot more. I can see it. But it is— she's so blatant. She's so funny. When that scene when Chester Morris comes to New York to confront Gertie about their affair, and he has the photos, of her cheating with the chauffeur. And Gershy's just so upset. And he asks Chester Morris, when did this begin? And Morris said, well, she arrived on the 16th.

Tony Maietta:
And Gershy says, yes. Well, the 16th. It's this comic tone that makes it so palpable, makes it more palatable for people. And it's what got it past the Production Code Administration. Because she's a homewrecker, this character. You know what I mean? She's a homewrecker. But one of the most important things to point out about this film is, is that the very end, even though she's basically destroyed some lives here and attempted to kill Chester Morris by shooting him, she gets off. It's an accident.

Tony Maietta:
I don't know how she shoots him after she points right at his car.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
She does not get punished. In the end, as in Baby Face, she's in Paris. married to a much older gentleman who, you know, she is also taking for a ride. And guess who's her chauffeur? It's Albert. It's— it is Charles Boyer. I love that ending. It's so funny because remember when we talked about Baby Face, how they had to tack on the ending of Baby Face to show the board of directors saying that Lily Powers basically paid for her sins? She's now—

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
She's now a good woman. Not in Red-Headed Woman. In Red-Headed Woman, Jean Harlow is living high on the hog in Paris, and that's just fine.

Brad Shreve:
And the way they did it was so fun, because you see her in the back of the car with this older man, very scraggly older man, and then it starts to pan out. And that's what the fun part was. It pans out to where you can see the driver, and lo and behold, no surprise, it's Charles Boyer.

Tony Maietta:
It's a great ending. It's a great film. It's a lot of fun. Before I go into talking about Jean Harlow, which I think we need to talk about, because this is basically the film that really established Jean Harlow as the huge icon of classic film. What did you think of this movie, Brad? You kind of teased about it before, so I gotta say, hey, Megan, you brought this on. What did you think of it, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I equally loved it, and I hated it. I can't say I hated it. I easily— equally loved it and disliked it. And it depended on where I put my brain at any given moment when I I allowed myself to just have fun. I laughed. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed its cheesiness for what it is. Every time I tried to get to know a character and want to know more about them, that's when I would get really disappointed.

Brad Shreve:
Jean Harlow aside, I didn't feel like the acting was all that great, but I also didn't feel like other than the lines, they didn't really have a lot to do with them. Because again, there wasn't a lot of depth to these characters.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, well...

Brad Shreve:
Even Jean Harlow. I wish I felt like she could have really shined more if they made it a deeper film. And I'm not saying that made it good or bad. It just was, you know, I watched part of it and then I had to stop and have lunch. And then I came back and watched it some more. And I had different feelings each time. So I liked it. But I certainly won't say it's a great— I'm really surprised how well it does in as far as the reviews, the critics, and that sort of thing.

Brad Shreve:
And I think that is mostly because of the time and what it represents. And I will say, from a historical standpoint and that sort of thing, I think it's a great film, an important film. I think it's a fun film when you think of the era. But a great film in general? Nah. Just fun.

Tony Maietta:
You have to, you know, you have to reset your standards. You have to reset your benchmarks. Because again, this is 1932. You know, there's not, no, there's not a lot of character development in this. That's not this, that's not how this film was designed. This film was designed as a good time. And as a comedy, you know, shot through a comedic lens. I hesitate to call it a comedy, because as I said, you know, she attempts murder.

Tony Maietta:
She's a homewrecker. But she makes it palatable because they present it in a comic tone. Sometimes. And because it's Jean Harlow.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
And I think what's important to point out about this is, is that this Red-Headed Woman was really a turning point in Harlow's career. Because by '32, she was very famous, but she was mostly famous for being not very good, or for being a very stiff, kind of mannequin-type actress. Because nobody had really tapped into her genuine gift. And her genuine gift, you know, she's known as the Happy Pagan.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
Because her genuine gift was this kind of film. The funny, sexual, just, just a happy pagan. It's the way, it's the best way to say it. And she is, she is, she's a woman, especially in these Pre-Code films, who is not ashamed of her sexuality and has fun with it. And that's what's so great about Harlow, is that everything comes with a wink and a nudge with Harlow. And You know, we haven't talked about Dinner at Eight, but Dinner at Eight, very much the same. She's the happy pagan. She's the happy, you know, she's a happy hooker, if you will.

Tony Maietta:
And that was the fun of Harlow. And it's so amazing because, you know, she really came to everybody's attention through Hell's Angels, which was the 1930 Howard Hughes film, which really put her on the map. And then she did Public Enemy with Jimmy Cagney playing a— but she's very stiff. And she's very mannered. And she's— that's where the line, let me slip into something more comfortable, comes from. She says it, but she says it so awkwardly and so stiffly that you really don't get that. You don't get, oh, wow, this is a great— this is a great actress. You don't get it.

Tony Maietta:
And I'm not saying that she was a great actress. What I'm saying was that she was a great personality. And her career would have ended as this stiff, platinum blonde bombshell image that she had, except for producer Paul Bern at MGM, who became her mentor and her husband. And there was a scandal which happened after this film, which I'll touch on briefly. But they saw something there. They saw something extra in Harlow that nobody had seen. A kind of a— just a lilt in her voice, a twinkle in her eye, which they thought— and this is what good producers do—

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
There's something there. Let's find out about her, if she can do this comedy. And that's it exactly. And once she did this, and she revealed this wonderfully wonderful comic gift she had to this, and she later did Red Dust, and she did Dinner at Eight, playing this happy pagan, playing this comically sexually free woman. That was her persona up until the code came down. And then it was— it changed a bit.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
after the Code came down, because she couldn't really be a happy pagan with, you know, part of her persona had to be— she suddenly had to be re-virginalized. But she was still a fun, good-time gal. That's just who Jean Harlow's character was. Not in real life, but that's who she was. So I think that's one of the reasons that people love this movie, is the fact that Jean Harlow makes it a hell of a lot of fun.

Brad Shreve:
And I agree. That's— I would say if it wasn't for her, I would just say generally, this isn't a good film. And it's hard to imagine that they would say, let's find somebody that's known for being stiff for this particular role, because it is a fun role and she does make it fun. I mean, I've always loved characters that have no redeeming qualities, and that is this character. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Unrepentingly unredeeming.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
She is unrepentant.

Brad Shreve:
They're fun to watch. That's why I like some of the modern gangster films. There's something that endears me to them if they're played well, and she plays this one well. I would like more depth, but it was fun to watch her. And she seemed like she was having a great time. That's actually the biggie. That's what made the film. You could tell she was having a damn good time.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. That's what makes it so enjoyable.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And that's another reason. And another huge reason for Harlow's popularity is that people found her funny. So she was non-threatening. Women, just like we said about Marilyn, you know, 30 years later when Marilyn was at her height, women loved Marilyn. Men loved Marilyn. Well, they loved Marilyn because of her vulnerability. With Harlow, it was because she was funny. Because she could make them laugh, and that was the key to her persona.

Tony Maietta:
So much so that, you know, not long after this film, she had just started to film Red Dust in 1932 with Clark Gable, when her husband Paul Bern was found dead. And for a long time, no one knew what happened. It was one of the big scandals of the '30s. And I don't want to go too much into it. There's lots of wonderful books and—

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
things about the Paul Bern murder. But for a while, she was a suspect. They didn't know what happened. And because MGM got in there and, you know, kind of whitewashed everything, it became a suicide. And later on, they discovered some evidence that was probably a former lover of his, or a wife actually, who killed him. But Harlow survived that scandal, which is what's so amazing. A scandal that would have killed anybody else because audiences loved her so much. because she was such a fun, fun character.

Tony Maietta:
And that's what's wonderful about Jean Harlow. Another wonderful thing about Jean Harlow, and a very famous thing about Jean Harlow, was that even at this point, she was known for her aversion to wearing underwear. The woman never wore underwear. And it was very well known. And so you remember that, you know, do you remember the scene in this film where Una Merkel has her pajamas on?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And she says, get out of those, those are mine.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Did you notice how the camera moved back and forth?

Brad Shreve:
How could you not? It was It's really well done, especially given this time period. I'm like, oh my goodness, we are letting it be known that this is a woman standing there naked right in front of the screen, but just a little off.

Tony Maietta:
The way the camera moves back and forth, you don't see anything, but you know they're both basically naked. You know, she takes off the top and the camera goes with the top, and then it comes on. It's— Jack Conway directed this film. Jack Conway was a journeyman director at MGM, did a lot of wonderful films. That's wonderful directing. That's a wonderful— we're get— that's what Pre-Code did, you know. Pre-Code gave us, yeah, sometimes they were blatant about things. But there was also the allusions, the, the suggestions, the euphemisms that disappeared in '34 when the code came down.

Tony Maietta:
And it was very rare that they came up. But that's one of the wonderful things about code, was it was very sexy without being blatant in-your-face sexy.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, everybody in the audience knew that she was naked in that scene and could picture her, and I am certain that many a straight man left that film with very detailed of what he actually thinks he saw, which was not there.

Tony Maietta:
Was not there.

Brad Shreve:
It was not there.

Tony Maietta:
It was just, it was all in your mind, and that's what's so, that's what's so wonderful about this movie. I love this movie, you know, I love this movie, because of Jean Harlow. I don't think I'd be that interested in it if it wasn't Jean Harlow. I find she's just so— again, even though she's playing a reprehensible character, she's so much fucking fun.

Brad Shreve:
Mm-hmm.

Tony Maietta:
She's so much fun. You just want to— you just want to— I don't know if I want to know her, but you just want to hang out with her for a bit and just have a drink with her and have a good laugh with her because she's just taking these people for— on a ride, and it's just— it's just so much fun to hang out with her for the For the hour and 20 minutes it takes for this film to unfold.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, very quick film.

Tony Maietta:
A little bit about Harlow, because we didn't really— we haven't really talked about Harlow.

Brad Shreve:
No.

Tony Maietta:
And it's very important to talk about Harlow. I would love to do another Harlow film, because I said after, you know, after she did this Red-Headed Woman, it really kind of set her character as this happy pagan who enjoyed sex and was fun. But what's wonderful about, remarkable about Harlow is, is that she was such a natural comedienne, that even after the Code came down in '34, she was, she was actually able to shift her persona slightly. And she was just as big a star after the Code came down, in movies like Libeled Lady and China Seas, and her final film, Saratoga, as she was in Pre-Code. So she was able to do it. She was actually able to ride that wave.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
Unfortunately, you know, she died at age 26 of kidney failure. And I want to bust a myth here. I think it's out there. The famous myth is that she was kept from medical attention due to her mother's Christian Science beliefs. And that's not true. She fell ill on the set of the film Saratoga. which she was making with Clark Gable. It was their 6th film together.

Tony Maietta:
They were a great comic team. They complemented each other so well. And she was always attended by a doctor. She went home and she was attended by a doctor the entire time. The problem was, was that she was misdiagnosed.

Brad Shreve:
Oh.

Tony Maietta:
She was misdiagnosed as having an inflamed gallbladder and influenza, not And they didn't realize she was actually going into kidney failure and dying in front of their eyes. So by the time she got to the hospital, it was too late. And she slipped into a coma. And she died at age 26. She was 26 years old when she died in 1937. I mean, again, here we are, like Marilyn, like James Dean, these icons are frozen in time at the height of their fame and their beauty. Because they died young, which is so tragic.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And kind of wonderful at the same time.

Brad Shreve:
Given the medical technology at that time, you can see that, that seems like almost like it would be an easy mistake without being able to get in and like they do now.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Very sad. Very sad. And, but, you know, I just wanted to bust that myth because that's always been out there.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And no, no, she had medical attention. They just misdiagnosed her. They just didn't know what was going on. And unfortunately it ended in her death, which was very tragic. She was very, very, very much loved by all of her colleagues. Nobody ever had a bad word to say about Jean Harlow, except maybe Joan Crawford, but we won't hold too much on that. That's just Joan. Gotta love her.

Tony Maietta:
But everybody loved Harlow to a tee. Spencer Tracy, Clark Gable, all— they called her Baby. That was her nickname from the time she was a child. And, you know, the Baby's gone at 26. So it's very sad. But also what is interesting about Harlow and Red-Headed Woman is, as you can imagine, though this film was a big hit, it was one of the films that really set the moralists, you know, got their backs up. Got them like, we cannot have these kinds of characters in films in front of our young people. In front of our impressionistic young people.

Tony Maietta:
So, you know, even though the Production Code wasn't strictly enforced until '34, Red-Headed Woman played a big part in the code coming down, because it just— they couldn't put up with it, this kind of behavior.

Brad Shreve:
Before we start talking about stats and everything else we have to talk about this film, let's get our usual out of the way. That, first of all, we are still doing the survey. It's going to run for a couple of weeks. Please, we ask you to go to the link that's in the show notes, and it's a very brief survey, just a few questions. We'd love it if you can help us We kind of feel like we know what you'd like. We know what we'd like. Let's see if we're on the same page. So just go there, click a couple of buttons.

Brad Shreve:
There's some boxes you can fill in if you want and get those in ASAP. That would really help us out. Beyond that, the other ways you can help us is, as always, rate and review this podcast. Whatever app you're listening on, you can look right at it and it says review or rate. Click that button and do so. We would really appreciate it. It lets others know that you enjoy the show. And we always love to hear from you.

Brad Shreve:
Again, in the show notes, you can send us a text or leave us a voicemail. Or the other way— boy, we're tossing out so many ways to reach us because we want to hear from you— you can email us at goinghollywoodpod@gmail.com.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, absolutely do that. See, look, this is a request. We did it. It is truly instant gratification here. Almost.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And we have more to come. We have scheduled— we have quite a few scheduled that were requested by individuals.

Tony Maietta:
We have. We have one coming up next, which was one that not only one person, not only 2 people, but I think 3 people requested.

Brad Shreve:
At least 3.

Tony Maietta:
At least 3. So, we're gonna do it. So, this film was— did have a wonderful critical reception, actually. Do you have any of the stats on this film, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I do. As I said, it, it was made for about $300,000 and it grossed about $1.2 million. Now remember, when we're talking about this era, these numbers can— you can't trust them 100%, but they're the best that we can get. So about $300,000 made $1.2 million. Not a drop in the bucket at that time period, that's for sure. No.

Tony Maietta:
'32.

Brad Shreve:
Nope. The critics and the audience loved Harlow. There were questions of whether it was a little too risqué and whether, if it was morally questionable. But everybody kind of admitted that they liked that at the same time. You know how that goes. Rotten Tomatoes, 91% critic score, which surprises me and I get it at the same time. I think story-wise it doesn't deserve it from a historical standpoint and just being plain old fun. I get it.

Brad Shreve:
Audience score is not as high, 72%, which doesn't surprise me because I don't think audiences would appreciate it. as much as a critic would from a historical standpoint.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I mean, I just think people love this movie because it's so much fun.

Brad Shreve:
It is.

Tony Maietta:
And yes, it just— it's just a hell of a lot of fun, you know. And again, don't look for any deep moral lessons in this thing because there aren't any, you know. If there is a moral lesson, it's, yeah, crime does pay, and go ahead and sleep your way to the top. Go ahead. So there's no moral lessons. It's just a really good time. But what's wonderful again My favorite thing about this film is the fact that it brought Jean Harlow into the forefront as this really wonderful, natural comedienne. And over time, she would really develop those skills and give us wonderful performances in Red Dust, and Dinner at Eight, and just, and Libeled Lady, one of my very favorite Harlow films.

Tony Maietta:
Just one of my very favorite films. And she became a, she was almost to the point where she was commenting on her own persona. She was able to, to kind of like deconstruct her persona and give these really funny, wonderful, self-aware performances. So if you don't know Jean Harlow, if you haven't seen a Jean Harlow film and you're a little worried about watching it, I don't know why you would. Start with Red-Headed Woman. I guarantee you, again, 115 minutes, or I'm sorry, an hour and 15 minutes, an hour and 20 minutes. Totally worth it.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Totally worth the investment. What else you got to do?

Brad Shreve:
I agree. Despite my criticisms, as always, it's a fun film and worth watching for sure. Watch it.

Tony Maietta:
It is. Well, I guess that was Redheaded Woman, Brad. Thank you, Megan, for your suggestion. I— we really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. Uh, I know you're dying of the heat over there in Spain, and it's pretty damn hot here, Brad.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, listener, just so you know, as much as how much we love you, we have to turn off our air conditioning, and it's the middle of the summer, because otherwise you'd hear a loud hum. So we are willing to do that for you.

Tony Maietta:
We are, but I can't take it much more. I'm schvitzing here. I'm schvitzing. So I only have one more thing left to say, but I don't want to say it. I actually do. So let's not say goodbye. Let's just say au revoir.

Brad Shreve:
No, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Goodbye, everybody.