Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta. And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just the guy who likes movies. We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too. And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter. As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood. Hey everyone! Welcome to the podcast. It is Tony, and I am Bradless this week. But it's not nothing to be upset about. Brad is just living his chosen Spanish life right now and he's busy. So he wasn't able to join me this week, but I am not alone because once I found that out, I made a call and I reached out to my own personal, what do we say? My own personal Mary Jane Croft, my own personal Countess Frambois. And I don't mean to put you in those terms because my guest is, you've heard him before, and he's been on the podcast before. He's a wonderful, wonderful film historian and a podcast co-host himself of Front Row Classics. Ladies and gentlemen, yes, joining me again for the first time this season is Mr. Brandon Davis. Welcome, Brandon. Welcome to the show. Hey Tony, good to see you. Good to see you. You know, we uh since the last time we recorded, we saw each other in person, which was fun. We actually met. Isn't that amazing? Brandon was in town for the TCM Film Festival a few weeks ago, and we actually, and thank you for carving out some time for me because uh I know that schedule's pretty packed. I mean, you were seeing movies at like 9 a.m., weren't you? Saturday was an insane day because I went and saw I saw George Stevens Jr.'s introduction to a place in the sun, and then I cut out to go and have brunch with you, and then we met, and then and then the rest of that day it was it was swing time, it was the Muppet movie, it was Victor Victoria, and it was notorious after that. That is an embarrassment of riches, an embarrassment of cinematic riches. Cinematic riches. I got to see Paul Williams and Leslie M. Warren. Yeah, that was a fun day. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you for you now that you've recovered and you're back to your normal time zone and you're feeling a lot. So thank you for joining me again. When I saw Brandon, I said, let's do uh because we were talking, I had been on Brandon's podcast and he owed me one. And we said, What are we gonna do when I thought we're more like we're more like Lucy and Carol Burnett, we have to trade off. We are. That's what we said. Yes, we did say that, right? We said we're more like Lucy and Carol Burnett. Tony and Brandon and Palm Springs. Tony and Brandon, yeah. I said to him, uh, when I found out Brad was not gonna be able to uh record this week, I thought, well, this is a perfect opportunity for Brandon and I to for Brandon to come on the show and talk about this film that I've been wanting to talk about, and I thought Brandon would be the perfect person to talk about it. But before we talk about, before we get into that, or in line with that, I want to um describe a film to you, Brandon. I want to describe a film and I want you to tell me what this film is. I'm just gonna give you a bullet point of the plot and then just just humor me and tell me what this is. So this movie is about a pair of Star Cross lovers, a man and a woman. Uh the man is an aspiring musician. The woman is an aspiring actress and singer. The man is a little off-kilter. He's a little bit um, he's he's kind of one of those crazy jazz guys. You know what I mean? He he he he definitely marches to the tune of his own drummer. The woman is very very much standard, very, very, very much in her own structure. She's very structured, but as happens in movie life, opposites attract and they fall in love and they try to have a relationship, but they're always coming up against each other. Their passions, they're both very passionate about what they believe in their artistry, and they keep bumping up against each other until finally those very things that brought them together tear them apart, and they separate. The girl goes off on her own, and what do you know, becomes a big movie star, a big acting, singing movie star. The boy goes off on his own, and what do you know, he becomes this great jazz improvisatory artist, and he opens up his own club, and years later they meet, and she has a kid, and they talk, and they decide they can't get back together again. They're they're better off apart than they ever were together. Now, Brandon, just from that description, that beautiful description, what movie am I talking about? Well, that sounds like my favorite movie of 2016, La La Land. It does. It also sounds like our movie of today, New York, New York. I'm sitting in the theater in 2016 watching La La Land, which I loved too. I loved La La Land. Thinking, okay, it seems to me I've heard this song before. I mean, it is so similar to New York, New York, New York, even to the point where it's La La Land and it's New York, New York. It's Los Angeles and New York. It's so funny. And I remember thinking, Damien Chazelle, I love you. You're a great filmmaker. What the hell, man? What are you doing? Riffing on Martin Scorsese. And I actually did a documentary with Damien Chazelle not that long ago. But we didn't film on the same day, which was disappointing to me, because I wanted to ask him, Damien, I love La La Land, but come on. It's basically New York, New York. What do you think about that, Brandon? You know, and watching watching New York, New York again this time around, I really I definitely could see the connections just in terms of not just the plot, but the stylization of everything, everything being over-stylized, everything being pastiche. Um you're right. The the main difference is the main difference is the way that the movie industry hovers over Lala Land and the way that just the culture of New York hovers over New York. New York, certainly. Um but you know, there's even a um you know, toward the end of La La Land, there's a dream ballet sequence. And in this movie, it's more of a in this movie it's more in the vein of what Liza's mom did in a starsborn with Born in a Trunk, but it's still similar. It's still similar. It's still taking you out of the plot for you know 10, 15 minutes. Yeah. And it but what cut what killed me was the ending, the fact that he has a jazz club and she's now the famous singer and actress, and they can't get together. And I I don't know. I just found that amazing to me. But it doesn't take away anything, in my opinion, from La La Land. No. What it does is it reinforces to me the brilliance of this film we're talking about today. And we are indeed, Brandon has joined me to talk about from United Artists in 1977, a movie I love, a what I consider a very flawed masterpiece, and that is New York, New York, from directed by none other than Mr. Martin Scorsese, starring Mr. Robert De Niro and Lisa Manoli herself, Miss Liza Manelli. Um, yeah, I love this movie. I've always loved this movie. This movie is one that divides people and that people have very definite opinions about. And I appreciate you joining me for this because I am dying to get throughout this episode your take on this film and your opinions of this film. But first I want to ask you, yeah, when was the first time? Do you remember the first time you saw New York, New York? Uh, I'm trying to remember. I think it was high school. Um, I think it was, I don't necessarily remember the year, but no, it was I was I was going down the rabbit hole of everything, movie musicals at that point, and you know, I had seen by that point I had seen cabaret, I'd seen um um you know, I'd seen a lot of the 70s, you know, musicals at that point. And, you know, when I saw in in the video store there, you know, a VHS copy of uh this movie directed by Martin Scorsese with Liza Minnelli and Robert De Niro, I'm like, what is this? Like it just existed at that point. And I really did it. And I was fascinated by it because I love there's something about there's something about the melancholy that I've always been drawn to. And this movie has a very melancholic tone to it. And I have to say, with the comparisons to Lala Land, I think as I put two and two together, uh Lala Land divided a lot of people too when it came out. And a lot of and very similar, the majority of the people I know who didn't like Lala Land are the same people who don't like New York, New York. Well, the thing about Lala Land is it won, it made how many gazillion dollars at the box and it won a slew. New York New York can't claim that, but yeah. New York, New York won freaking Golden Globe nomination for a song, and that's about it. And it obviously, unfortunately, was not a financial success. Yeah, but I think you have a very interesting point because Scorsese, for people who don't know about New York, New York, and only know the song, the Liza Manelli song that they wrote for Liza Manelli, not for Frank Sinatra. Okay, let's put that to bed. Not for Uncle Frank. Thank you, Uncle Frank. Um Scorsese describes New York, New York as a film noir hiding inside a Technicolor musical. And that is about the best description I can think of for there's a lot of descriptions for this film, but I think that pretty much sums it up. It is, it's the darkness of a film noir because Scorsese was inspired by those musicals after the war, the late 40s, early 50s musicals, like I'm gonna say it right now, like a star is born, like Love Me or Leave Me. These films which were musicals, but had a real darkness to them, a real core of like a noir edge. And that's in essence what he was trying to do with New York, New York, in part, and then other things too, don't you think? Oh, I think so, yeah. And it's not it's not a musical in the classic set, you know. Anytime someone breaks out into song in this, it's for an audition, it's a performance. No one's breaking out into song in this movie, too. So uh which is which is also one of the big differences between the it and La La Land, also. Um but but yeah, it is totally he's subverting your expectations with this movie completely. You're gonna if you go into it looking at the cover, looking at you know different scenes, and you think you're gonna watch this kind of flashback retro golden age musical, you learn very early on that this is not what this movie is. Yeah, well, it's kind of an homage and it's kind of a revisionist version of a musical. And that was the problem that people had with New York, New York when it was released. Yeah, they went expecting, and I don't know why, but they went expecting this kind of bright, fun, it's Liza Minnelli. But hello, there's also Robert De Niro there. I mean, when's the last time you saw Robert De Niro in a bright, fun movie, especially at this time? I mean, he had just done Taxi Driver. So I've heard so many fun descriptions about this film, uh, which I want to get into. But I think what's also important to point out, and when you said Scorsese subverts your expectations, and that's because he has hyper-realistic behavior set against absolutely artificial backdrops. Yeah. And that's where people get the, huh? What am I watching? What is this? So you have these lavish musical numbers, this beautiful scenery, over-the-top scenery, and these really gritty relationship drama. And I I think that's what's jarring, that's certainly what was jarring to people in 1977. They just it just didn't gel for them. They couldn't get the juxtaposition, right? Yeah, for me, for me, the epitome of what you're talking about is the scene in the snow uh with with De Niro and Manelli, where the two of them are having, you know, this hyper realistic, gritty conversation. And the and it's so, I mean, it's very akin to what you would see in 1977, and you've got this sort of flawless snow that's obviously a backdrop, you know, and the background, and that kind of stuff appeals to me. But I know that there's a lot of people who it doesn't appeal to me. With the papier mache trees, and you know, it's a gorgeous scene, but yeah, they're having a very gritty, hard discussion about the relationship. And you know, meanwhile, they look like they're in munchkin land because of the pastels and the colors, and you're like, and people are they're like, What? What am I watching? So it causes problems for people. I think it's genius, but it causes problems for people. I've also heard this movie described when they talk about the characters. A friend of mine said, Oh, it's Travis Bickle meets Esther Blodgett. It's basically De Niro's character from Taxi Driver dropped into an MGM musical. Yeah. And that's also disturbing to people too. They don't understand, because at this point, like I said, he had just done Taxi Driver, he was about to do Raging Bull. We know who Robert De Niro is, and the fact that he would be in this confection of a musical is very, very jarring. Yeah. No, it and and it just lends itself to the unpredictability of the movie. The character is so volatile. Yeah. And he just you he he's he's this powder keg that you just don't know ever when he's gonna explode or what he's going to react to. And when you put that up against this polished perfection that is in the background, uh this over-stylized polished perfection. You know, you know, movies in the 40s uh, you know, didn't even look like this. It look it's such a exaggerated version of what they look like. And uh it's it it really juxtaposes itself uh so jarring in such a way that you really have to you really have to give yourself over to it. You can't really overthink any of it as you're watching it. You do, and I think you just have to, as with many things, you just have to go for the ride. This journey that you're gonna be taken on in this film. It's a long journey, by the way. It's a very long it's an investment like all those movies, like a star is born, you know, similar, long, but you have to invest in it. You know, Scorsese's original idea when he decided he wanted to do this and make it in this style was to make it to film it in Technicolor, in three-strip Technicolor, as all those glorious films, MGM, were filmed in glorious technicolor. However, by 1976, 77, there weren't any more technicolor cameras that were working that they could actually use. I think the last film to use them was The Godfather Part 2, he said, which was 74. So he said, What am I gonna do? Well, he got together an incredible, a crack team of technicians to work on this. In fact, Liza said, every time I turned around, there was another genius behind me. Because we have cinematography by Laszlo Kovacs, who did Shampoo, who did Easy Rider, who did What's Up Doc? What's yes, one of our favorite movies? What's up, Doc? Paper Moon. We had a mythic production designer, Boris Levin, who did West Side Story, Giant, The Sound of Music. We also had uh this uh script, which was, and we'll get back to this, I'm gonna say air quotes script, because the original script was written by Earl McRao, and Scorsese threw that out basically, because he wanted to improvise this whole thing. And then he brought in Mardik Martin when they realized we can't do it this way. We need someone to write some of these scenes. And of course, we have the man himself. We have Martin Scorsese, who, you know, now is an undisputable giant in film. But in 77, you know, he had Alice doesn't live here anymore. He had Mean Streets, taxi driver. He was just beginning to establish himself. So he wasn't this this you know iconic film director we think of now, but he was still pretty damn respected. So this is quite a team coming together for this. It's yeah, no, it's interesting when you think about Scorsese at this point, because now you know he's thought of as you know, this gr you know, this grand old patriarch of film at this point, you know, who you know, who shakes his hand and fist at, you know, all things Marvel movies and things like that. And you know, and and back then he was the young Maverick. So it's it's interesting to put to to put him in that context back then, and you know, because people like him and Spielberg, you know, they're so deified now. But when you think of them what they were back then and these kind of young bucks, it's interesting to really put yourself back in that time period. It is, it is, and and going along with since he couldn't actually film this in three-strip Technicolor, he got this group of people together along with Fioni V. Aldridge to do the costumes, along with the fabulous Sidney Gillaroff to do Liza's hair uh from MGM. So what they did was, they would they they basically took what they had with the film stock they had and they heightened it by painting the sets brighter, painting the actors brighter, making everything just a little more exaggerated so it could mimic the look of those great technicolor movies of the late 40s and early 50s. And it's the production design is stunning in this. That's incredible. It's a riot of colors and of all kinds of some of these costumes. Uh, there's one scene uh where where Robert De Niro, where Jimmy is is eating with Francine and the cuffs on his shirt have gotta be about six feet long. I mean, it's hysterical. It's like a zoot suit wet dream with him. Um, but it's all to make his point because this is all impressionistic. This is all kind of like a dream, and that's what Scorsese is is really driving home. Yeah. Yeah, no, and it's I mean, it's I I texted you last night. I was just like, man, just in the uh just in the production design alone, there's so many scenes in this movie that you could just freeze frame and hang on your wall. They just make these wonderful art deco, almost Edward Hopper-ish kind of settings and and and paintings. Truly stunning. And Liza, I mean, I mean, you mentioned the costumes and the hair by Sidney Gillaroff, and it's it's insane. Just you can just glance at any scene in the movie how much she rem this is the movie she most resembles her mother. I mean, just I mean, and I'm sure and it has to do with the hairstyles and the wardrobe and all of that. Well, on and on purpose. Yeah, on purpose. A lot of it's on purpose. And she had her mother's dressing room for this movie. She did. I was gonna say, one of the most fascinating tidbits about this movie is it was filmed at MGM. Where she grew up. Where she basically grew up on the lot, on the back lot at NGM, and they gave her her mother's dressing room from Meet Me in St. Louis. So there was all kinds of levels of meta happening here. But Scorsese did it on purpose. When you think about it, he's paying homage to the films of Vincent Minelli and also to the films of Judy Garland. Who better to be in this movie than the daughter of Vincent Manelli and Judy Garland? Yeah, I definitely want to talk about Liza uh and her performance later because I think it's the best she's ever, ever been. But the the synopsis of this film is pretty much like La La Land. I kind of gave it to you. But Liza plays Francine Evans, she's a young, aspiring singer, she's a band singer when they meet. Uh Robert De Niro is Jimmy Doyle, and he is a musician. He plays the saxophone. And did you know that De Niro learned not how to play the saxophone, but how to make the fingers correct so he could do it? And he was dubbed, if that's the right word for music, is dubbed by Georgie Ald, who's in this movie, who plays Frankie Hart, uh, who is the band leader, the leader of the band that Liza sings with. And we also have some great other people in here. We have the amazing Lionel Stander, um, from all the way back to the very first A Star was born, as Tony Harwell, Liza's agent. We have Barry Primus as Paul Wilson, and every time I see her, I laugh. Mary Kay Place. I love Mary Kay Place in this. You saw me standing alone. Right off of Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman at that point. Right off of Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. Um, we have music by Ralph Burns, which incorporates some incredible songs of the great American songbook. And we have original songs by, of course, Who Else? By Candrin Ebb. Hello. It's Eliza. You also have Clarence Clarence Clemens from the E Street Band in this. Yes. Yeah. It's incredible. And and Robert De Niro's wife. Yeah. Denise Abbott isn't this. Who does a great version of Honeysuckle Rose. Yeah. She does, calling out the Lena Horn. So I'll just want to give a little bit of a background of how this how this all came about, because it really is fascinating. So Scorsese read that producers Erwin Winkler and Robert Chardoff had purchased a script by writer Earl McRail about the 1940s big band era, right while he was preparing Taxi Driver. And Scorsese said the first music he remembered hearing as a child was big band music. And he was obsessed with it. And he said, I really want to. I need to do this. I need, you know, Scorsese talks. Ah, he talks faster than me. I need to be on this. I need to, I need to, I need to do this. So he was hired to direct this movie and then basically threw out the script because it was his idea to make it an all improvisation. Now, this is how Scorsese worked. Okay, but there's a crucial difference. This was Scorsese's first big studio film. We just said Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Alice doesn't live here anymore. All shot on location, if you will. Realistic settings. Okay. You can improvise when you're doing that because nobody's waiting, nobody's going around building a set. There aren't hundreds of costumes, there aren't huge production numbers that are waiting for you to film something. You can't do that in a studio film. And this is where Scorsese ran into problems. Well, we talked about a couple episodes back, Brad and I talked about stage door, and we said how um the director, Gregory Lacava, would eavesdrop on conversations the actresses were having, and then he would incorporate that into a script, and then the actresses would play off the script. Well, ideally, that's the best way improvisation works in acting. And you know, you're an actor, Brandon, you understand this. You improv during the rehearsal. Somebody writes it down and then presents you with a script and you play the same thing. Well, that didn't happen in New York, New York. There just wasn't time. There were a few scenes, and those scenes which work the best, in my opinion, were constructed that way. They improvised in the rehearsal, went back, wrote it, and shot it. But they were so far behind schedule, and this thing was such a behemoth to make that so many of these scenes were just shot improvised. Now, when you have a brilliant actor like De Niro, it's not so difficult. But as you can imagine, this caused a real problem for the production. I mean, doesn't that isn't that insane that the I mean that kind of thinking? Yeah, it is insane, and you're you're right. And when you watch the film, the you can it does certain scenes just feel more disjointed than others. And I think it's because, you know, like you said, De Niro is very comfortable improvising dialogue and everything. And Liza certainly rises to the occasion, although you can although you do feel like every once in a while there's scenes where she is trying to keep up with him in terms of that. And but I think I think it actually lends itself into what you mentioned before. I think this is one of, isn't that her finest hour on screen? Because she I think she's she's trying to be very controlled and she underplays it so much in so many different scenes as opposed to being so outlandish, which she is in other films. It's so different from her portrayal of Sally Bowles and Cabaret. And she's so not Sally Bowles in this. No, and I think because I think because of the improvisation and because she's kind of doing it without a net, she's trying to keep herself much more controlled and inward. And I think it I think it lends itself well to the material. Well, yes, and you have to remember Scorsese and De Niro had a very tight relationship. You know, they were like they were a team of two, basically. So she's coming in. First of all, she's a woman, and you know, there were certain misogynistic things at play here, but she's a woman, she's coming into this very tight relationship, and this was not her way of working. She was very standard, scripted, you know, she's from the she worked in the theater, she had her apprenticeship in the theater on Broadway. I guarantee you there was not improvisation on cabaret, and if there was, it was very, very limited. But being Lasminelli and being like, I'm gonna do this, she stepped up and she went toe-to-toe with De Niro. And actually, when the filming was over, did you know this? De Niro told her, Don't ever be afraid to improvise anymore. You are one of the best I've ever worked with. And can you imagine hearing that from Robert De Niro? I mean, it's like, oh, okay, thanks. I don't need any, I don't need to work anymore. That's that's an Oscar for me. Because she did step up, because she was a live performer, so she could kind of get to that. And you're right, you can kind of see the disjointed scenes. You're like, oh, that's some improv. But it also lends that sense of immediacy, it gives it that realistic, gritty feeling that uh Scorsese wanted in the film. It's just a really crazy way of working, really crazy way of working. Yeah, but the more disjointed the scenes are, the more it balances itself out from the polish of the look of the movie, too. So it really gives it this quirky energy that really is unlike anything else. Yeah. One of the scenes, uh one of my favorite scenes is the proposal scene. Uh outside. Uh so basically De Niro takes Eliza, I should use the characters' names. Jimmy takes Francine to a Justice of the Peace, and she doesn't know what's going on. She's like, What? What's what's going on? What's going on? She doesn't know this is happening, and he's like, We're gonna get married. And she's like, uh what? So he goes to knock on the door of the Justice of the Peace's cabin and he breaks the glass. Well, that was an accident, and this is what happens when you don't work with a script because Scorzetti says, Cut, that was did you hurt yourself? That was great. Let's do it that way. Well, we have to get more glass. We didn't plan on doing this, so they had to stop filming to go get breakaway glass, like 14 panes of breakaway glass, which can you imagine how long that delayed the filming for that day? And they got it, and they did it over and over and over again. And Laszlo Kovac said they did it like 14 times. And De Niro's breaking glasses and breaking glass and breaking glass. And finally, he says this Martin, after the 14th take, he says to Scorsese, Um, do you think we got it? Can we move on? And he said, No, he said, That last take, I thought I saw the beginning of a tear in Liza's eye. We need to go further. So they did like five more takes of this scene. So, you know, normally if something is scripted and you plan the breakaway glass, you're doing five, six scenes. But because of this whole improvisation, not having the scene scripted, and then having to stop production and go get the glass, you know what I mean? You're adding more and more time, which is one reason why this thing went so over time and over budget. But it's a great scene, it's a fun, it's a wonderful, wonderful scene. Yeah, especially when he tries to get the cab to back over him. But there's there's a wonderful moment where he's there laying down and Liza is going, you know, Francine, you know, is trying to stop the cab, but you can tell Liza you can see the wheels turning a little bit and she's trying to give her, and she does that wonderful line ring of don't shift. I love that. Don't shift. Yeah, she has so many great things. I love it when they're fur in their first cab when they first, not when they first meet, but the day after they meet, and he's explaining what a major chord is to her, and she he gives her he gives her his gum and he says, Hold on to this for luck. And she looks at him, she goes, for luck, and then she smashes it against the cab door, and it's such a great and that was improvised. So you get jewels like that, but you also get long and longer and longer. The schedule just goes out the window. It goes out the window. But I think the improvisational aspect, it lends certainly to the unpredictability and volatility of the Jimmy character, yes. And just you know, to where, you know, you never quite know how he's going to react or what he's going to do. That's what I wanted to ask you. So, what do you think of so let's talk about these characters? What do you think of Jimmy Doyle, of the character of Jimmy Doyle? Do you think he's a creep? Do you think he's a hero? Do you think he's charming? What's your take on him? He's a charming asshole. Yeah, he's got this bravado and he's got this charisma about him that would just draw you to him. But anybody being with this guy for too long is just gonna turn toxic. And he just can't, he just can't help himself. You know, you know, I think back to the scene where they're having the orchestra rehearsal where she's doing taking a chance on love, and she's trying to manure some things around herself, but he won't even let her start the music. He has to do it himself. And I'm like, this guy he has to kick off the band. And I'm like, this guy is just, I mean, you just you can't, this is not someone who can be reasoned with ever. He's a poster boy for toxic masculinity, basically. But when you think about some of those musicals that that Scorsese is paying homage to, there's a lot of aggression in Gene Kelly, there's a lot of aggression in Frank Sinatra. That is not totally missing from these movies. So you kind of see where the seeds of Jimmy Doyle are planted in this. And yes, he's really I go back and forth with him. I think he's incredibly charming and yes, definitely charismatic. Um, and at this point, particularly, De Niro was so handsome. And but he is a creep, and she sees he's a creep, but he just wears her down. That's his charm is wearing people down. You know what I mean? He doesn't dazzle them with his charm, he wears them down until finally she's worn down. Yeah, yes, yes. I agree with you, I agree with you. So that's talking about that first scene, which is one of my very favorite scenes. Um, that scene is like a movie in itself. You know, that that first scene where they meet. So what happens is they meet on VJ Day. VJ Day. The war is over, and the first shot we see in the movie is of De Niro's feet. And uh he's in sat, he's in uh two-tone shoes. He's changed already out of his uniform, and he's in a Hawaiian shirt, white pants, and two-tone shoes. And he goes into this great big party they're having and celebrating the end of the war, and he meets Liza Manelli. And this is I love this so much. I talked about a bit about this on the podcast when we talked about Trip to Bountiful. Um, and what I love about this first scene is he's trying to pick Liza up, and he is giving her every single line he can think of. And every time the first words we hear out of Liza Manelli are no. She says no 14 times to him. That's all she says is no. No, no, no. And it's a different no, every each a different way. I love, love, love that. It's very uh they're all very specific no's. But you realize this is what I love about Liza, is everyone is so specific, everyone is so in the moment, every single no, and it's funny. It's just it's a great, uh, it's a very, very cute meet cute, I think. Yeah, yeah. And she's very and once again, I bring this up again. Uh also probably one of the one of the times she's very reminiscent of her mother. I can see her mother saying no, several of those different ways in the same way reactions, her reactions, and first of all, that set is amazing. Um, and we of course we can return to that set later on in the movie. And it's just it it just is it's exactly what you think VJ Day would be, just in your mind's eye. It's probably not exactly what it was in real life, but it's the movie version of what you think it would be. And they have this incredible frenetic chemistry together right away, and and and it already sets the tone of what exactly this relationship is going to be. It plants the seeds immediately. It tells you everything you need to know about these characters and what their future is going to be. He is always on the make, and she is going to be deflecting him at every turn. And it's also, they're always going head to head. Yeah. It's a constant power struggle between these two people. And you know, as what happens sometimes when you meet somebody and it's very passionate and you're always going head to head, that can lead to it can lead to a huge blowout, but can also sometimes lead to romance. And it does both ways in the space. And that's exactly what happens. Oh, yeah. At the same time, sometimes they end up falling in, they end up their passions take them over and they end up together through a series of machinations, which I'm not going to go into, but it's a lot of fun. He pretends he has a wooden leg, he has an alias. It's just it's so much fun. He ends up following her down to North Carolina where she's singing with the band. He gets a job with the band and they're performing together, and that's when they really fall in love. Yeah. And they start writing a song together. Can you guess which one? Yeah, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. So, anyway, I think what I love is that not only do you have the theme of this movie, or the overall, not the theme, but the motif of this movie of being this juxtaposition of uh basic reality against this artifice. And the the characters also reflect that because Jimmy is off the wall, improvisational, just totally out there, spur of the moment, instinctual musician. And Francine is very controlled, very contained, very by the book. She is the band singer. She's not Liza Manelli, she is a band singer. And I love this about Liza's performance. You know, she she basically learned a new style of singing, Liza Manelli did, to play this part. Because a band go ahead. No, no, I'm saying there's moments where she opens her mouth and you're like, is she being dubbed? That doesn't sound like Liza. No, that's it. She barely opens her mouth. She barely opens her mouth because she's doing, she's not doing Liza Manelli. She's playing a part, she's playing Francine Evans, and Francine Evans is a band singer like Doris Day, like Peggy Lee. They weren't performers, they were just another instrument in the orchestra. Yeah, and I love the fact that she does that. She it's a completely unexpected Liza Manelli. She's very controlled, very small. You know, what is it? Frank Sinatra famously said about Liza uh when she was starting out. He said to Mia Farrow, not every song is the national anthem. You know, because you get Liza, it's Baffo, pop. Not in this movie at first, not in this movie. And I love that. I love the fact that she's so controlled and so contained, and that that's the actress. Yeah, that's the actress in the character choice, and it's a it's it's niggas, and she's really good. Yeah, right? She's not she's not, you know, up to that point, Liza. I feel like through whether it was cabaret or sterile cuckoo or any of the other movies, there was a kookiness. There is no kookiness at all about Francine Evans. There's none. And and you're right, once, you know, once you get to the end of the movie and Francine becomes a star, then she becomes Liza. But but but up through but up through the big band period of the movie, you're right. She is Rosemary Clooney, she's Peggy Lee, you know, she is that kind of controlled singer. Scorsese said that the character of Francine is basically the journey of Doris Day into Liza Minelli. You know, basically she starts out as a very contained, very controlled singer, and then she slowly starts to find her voice. And as she finds her voice, she literally finds her voice. Yeah, she finds her voice as a performer when she finds her real voice, which is Liza Manelli's voice. Um, it's amazing. And it happens when uh it happens for the first time when she sings The Man I Love, which is one of my favorite musical sequences. So The Man I Love. Do you do you do you like that? Do you like that sequence? Oh, it's a great sequence. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's when she for the very, very first time. So Frankie Hart has left the band, he's given it to Jimmy to take over. So so Jimmy is basically fronting the band now, and it still says Jimmy Doyle's Orchestra with Francine Evans. And there's a sequence where Liza sings the man, I almost said the man that got away. There's a sequence where Liza sings the man I love. And at the very end, she opens up, her voice opens up, and you get a hint, a little glimpse of Liza Manelli, a little glimpse of Sally Bowles, that vibrato. And wouldn't you know that at that moment Francine's starts starts to ascend. She starts to get more and more attention until until it's becomes Francine Evans and Jimmy Doyle's orchestra. And that causes problems, folks. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And you you see it coming because you know that this is we know from the very beginning this is someone who can't handle, you know, the character of Jimmy couldn't can't handle being second to anybody, right? But as she begins to find her voice, she can give as well as she takes. And it's a it it always kind of feels like a fair fight between the two of them because they both have this kind of strength in the movie, and it, you know, and it comes to blows, you know, and as the plot goes on, and as she becomes pregnant, and you add that into the storyline. Um, and I mean they have some knockdown drag out, physical feet. They do really, really yeah, really. Oh my gosh, the scene in the cab where she's given birth um is intense. I mean, from both of them. And uh it's just she goes into labor, yeah. She really does. And and there are some like guttural screams that come out of her that you never hear from Liza in any other movie, I feel like. You never hear it. That's and you're absolutely right. This is so Liza even said that this is this was the reason one of the reasons Liza wanted to do this, other than work with the Nier Runs Corsese, was because for the first time she was playing the character who was the normal one. That's true. She was not not the crazy one, she wasn't Sally Bowles, she wasn't Pookie Adams, she was the sane one. But let me ask you a question. Do you think Francine is a villain? And you can you can think about that for a minute because I just threw that at you. I I don't know. I've I've always thought of Jimmy as the villain of this film, right? Yeah, right? Yeah, I've I Francine makes decisions for them unilaterally. She doesn't consult Jimmy. That's true. She when she gets pregnant, now he blames her for getting pregnant, and you're like, okay, it's the 40s, you're an asshole. Okay, it takes two to tango, buddy, but okay. She decides she's going to leave the band. That's her decision. She won't, she will not go on with the band. She makes unilateral decisions for the both of them. When the baby is born, she names the baby Jimmy. She doesn't even ask him to name it. You know, he goes, you just can't make. So there is an argument that, and this might be a little too misogynistic. So I don't give this a lot of argument, but I have heard this, and that's the only reason I'm bringing it up. I don't know that I necessarily agree with it that Francine is actually a villain in this because she is controlling Jimmy. And I think that when you put it like that, it seems kind of like bullshit. But when you look at some of the decisions, some of the things that happened, some of their real conflicts, are because she's acting without consulting him as a partner, as a partner, not even as man and woman, but as a partner in life. And I think that's an interesting take on that. She's she's she could be, you could define her as being careless and un you know, uh uncompromising in terms of her actions. I don't think there's some grand evil scheme in her mind that she's in. So I don't think so I I just think that that makes them both incredibly flawed characters. And incredibly real, incredibly real characters. Yeah. She's only a villain if you're going to vilify her for having her own ambition. Right. You know, and she should, you know, that's the thing. We're looking at this in the scope of a 40s movie when, you know, when the man was dominant. No, she's a woman, she's got dreams, she's got desires. Does that make her a villain because she wants a career, because she has passions, because she has things she wants to do, like a family and a career? No, it doesn't. But I I think that take on her is interesting because this film, when you look at this film, you look at Jimmy as the bad guy. You look at Jimmy as the one who's causing all the causing all the problems. However, you have to look at her too as being culpable too. Nobody's to blame. We're not saying anybody's right or wrong here. They're just passionate people who have dreams who want to see them come true. Yeah. I think that's it. Yeah, and they're and and they both are unwilling to I mean, they're both unwilling to bend to any kind of compromise, too. And I think that that's yeah, and that's that there lies the rub between the two of them. It's like that if they have to go forth on their own paths the way that they see it, and they can't really imagine doing it any other way. Way or bending even to somebody else, even just a little bit. No, and if anybody bends, she does, but not that much. She does. Not that much. No. So I mean, he's just when push finally comes to shove, no. She holds the line, you know, and so when she gets pregnant, she decides to leave the band and go back to New York, which causes basically the downfall of the band. So there's some animosity there on Jimmy's part. He eventually leaves the band because the replacement on the wonderful Mary Kay plays. Blooming. You saw me standing alone, uh, who plays Bernice. Um she's not Francine. The band, plus the times are changing. You see that less and less people are in the ballrooms. So he comes back to New York and he's just trying to find his way. Well, she is making a lot of money doing commercial jingles and doing demos. Meanwhile, she's gonna have a baby. And an agent from Decca Records is very interested in signing her because he sees the potential of her. And um Jimmy doesn't want her to do this. There's some jealousy there because suddenly she is, it's this is where it's like a stars born. You know what? Her career is ascending, his it's not going down, it's just not going anywhere. And there's a he has a real masculine ego problem with that. Um, and so as Brandon said, it comes to a head in a cab. So many of their fights happen in cars, they happen in cars, cabs, buses. Because you ask yourself, okay, who's driving this car? Who's the driving force of this relationship? Is it her or is it him? And the scene where Brandon was talking about where they have the real physical fight when she's uh when she decides she wants to sign with this record label after the baby's born, and they have a physical altercation and she goes into labor, you know, it's a very violent, it's a very disturbing scene. First of all, she's drunk because it's because it's like 1947, so pregnant women can drink. Um she's drunk, and then she goes into premature labor. And then the movie becomes the way we were for one scene. Do you know what I'm talking about, Brandon? Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, Redford has no relationship with his child in the way we were, and De Niro doesn't either. There's a scene in the hospital, Liza gives birth to their son, yeah, and there's a scene in the hospital which has an identical cousin in the way we were. Because Barbara gives birth and Redford comes in, they've decided they can't be together anymore, so this is their parting. So it's almost identical in both movies. It really is. Liza's in bed, Barbara's in bed, Jimmy leaves, Redford leaves. Except, this is and this is the thing, and what do you think about this? Liza's is better, I gotta say. Liza, and I hate I would I'm the last person in the world to ever, ever, ever sully the way we were. But what happened I love is that they decide they can't be together. They've made this decision, and they're in this, they're in the hospital together and they're saying goodbye. And De Niro leaves, and Liza cries. Same thing happens in the way we were. Well, in the way we were, when Barbara's alone, the head goes back, and the tear, the single tear, runs down the cheek. And then the movie, you know, and then you hear the way we were theme in the background. When Liza's is so real, yeah. Jimmy leaves and Liza sits there, and she's just looking back and forth, and suddenly she's overcome with emotion. And she does what we all, I think, do when we feel emotion overtaking us in public. She immediately covers her eyes because she's starting to cry. And then she pulls herself together and she takes her hand down and she looks around her, like, did anybody see me? Didn't anybody see me? It's so beautiful, it's so real. It moves me so much that that goodbye scene. Yeah, it's incredibly raw and it's incredibly real. And it's the I mean, it it's it it it's the difference between Liza and Streisand, really. I mean, Streisand is so polished and everything she does, but there is a that you you know, and as as glamorous and show busy as Liza can be, there is, and I think the reason we all love her is because there is this sort of raw realness to her that she brings, this humanity to everything. And so, yeah, the the humanity of Liza really comes out in those scenes, especially. I always thought that you know Barbara makes some amazing choices in her career, not so amazing sometimes in her acting choices, and Liza exactly the opposite. Liza makes the most rid a cop, really Liza, um uh lucky lady, really Liza. But in those moments, in Arthur too, but when she gets it right in those scenes, like the scenes in cabaret and the scenes in this, she's so real. Yeah, she's she's so raw and real, and um the walls are just down, and I think you're right. I think that's what people respond to as an actress to Liza. It's like her mother in that scene in A Star is very much in the dressing room where she's so raw and real. I love it, I love it. Yeah, or and I could go on singing, yeah. Oh, god, yeah, god yeah. So they part, they part, they go the separate ways, and we come upon to me the most amazing scene in the film. Do you know what I'm talking about? Let's see, where are we at that point? Um they've left. Let me give you the roadmap of New York, New York. She's in a recording studio. Oh, the world goes round, but the world goes round, yes, yes. Because she's in a recording studio, it's a couple years later, she's in this record, she's listening to this recording she made, and she's just not happy with it. She's like, I can't, it's it's the old Francine. It's very tight, it's very strident. And she sees her son, she goes over her son's belly, like four or five years old. She walks up to the to the uh recording and she starts again and she starts to sing, but the world goes round, and suddenly the words start to affect her. She starts to live the song, she starts to be, she suddenly is inside the world of the song, and as that's happening, the recording studio fades away, and this spotlight comes on her. Because she's now, as I said, she's left the recording studio in her mind, she's now living the and the internal life of the song, of the lyrics, and she sings it like she has never sung it before or since. She is living that song every single moment, every single motivation in that song. And by the way, P.S. She sung it live and she did it in one take. Is that not amazing? And Liza has gone on record as saying this is the favorite song of her career. She loves and you feel it every time she sings it. Yes, exactly. So as she's, you know, she's leaving the external world and going into the world of the song, and she finally, finally, we saw little hints of it before. Yeah, she finds her authentic voice. She becomes, for lack of a better word, Liza Minnelli. She ain't Doris Day anymore at this point. She ain't Doris Day no more, and because she's now found her voice, she becomes a huge star. And that's to me, that's an how that's what film can do. Okay. We just saw, we just watched this whole emotional journey and this character's journey to realizing her dreams in one song. In one song done by a brilliant, brilliant performer. Yeah. It moves me every time. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, you're right. Only film, because as as wonderful as you can do that on a stage because of film, because of close-ups, because of the way angles happen, the way lighting can be, you can feel an entire journey in just a three-minute song that you can't necessarily do anywhere else. And and yeah, you you totally feel like something has totally changed for this character by the end of it. Yeah, something clicked with her, and she suddenly, you know, and we see her entire internal monologue uh in the performance of this song. And we do we see that through the performance, but we see it through what Scorsese does by making the external world disappear, and we go, it's a very theatrical thing, by the way. And just having the spotlight on her, and we get closer and closer and closer until she's lost in this song. And then I love at the end when she finishes the song and she comes back up like, what the fuck was that? What did I just do? And it's something something possessed her. Yes, she got she was overtaken, and she becomes a star, and then we have the big musical number of Francines, which is happy, happy endings, happy endings, or sappy endings as Jimmy calls it. So aside from the point of happy endings, what do you think of the sequence happy endings, just as a musical sequence? I mean, it just it is amazing when you know that it was filmed on these MGM sound stages. I'm like, I can just see, I mean, little nuggets of like sun in a new sky for the Sharice does and I can see you know, moments from the American and Paris Valley. You know, you can see little bits, and how wonderful is it to have a cameo by her current father-in-law at that point, Jack Haley Sr. It's great, and also Sydney Gillaroff. And Sydney Gillaroff, yeah. Sydney Gillaroff is doing her hair at the beginning of it, you know, because she asked, Sydney, could you do my hair? And um, yeah, it's so great. That's Sydney Gillaroff was the great MGM hair hair stylist who worked on her mother. Um, this was the first scene shot in the whole movie, and so and Martin Scresese's idea was just as Brandon had mentioned, you know, these movies of the 40s and mostly the 50s, like a Star Was Born, like Singing in the Rain, like An American in Paris, the narrative of the film would suddenly stop, and we would get a 10, 15, 20-minute musical sequence, which has you think nothing to do with the film we've just been watching. However, in the best ones, in the best examples of this, it actually does. It actually mirrors what we've just been watching for the pre previous hour and a half, two hours. It reflects on it, it it adds another level to the story because very frequently these little musical sequences or these big musical sequences are mirrors of what we've just watched in a different way. Yeah, you know, in in Sappy Endings, it's the story of this woman who becomes a star and everybody abandons her. What did we just watch? Yeah, what did we just watch in New York, New York now? Francine becomes a star and she's abandoned. So I think it's really I think it's really amazing that he put that in there at the balls, first of all, to put that in there. But I mean, these sequences really do mirror the plots of what we've just been watching. So it's it's uh it's a great way to really add another level, another dimension to these films. Yeah, I mean, I I mean you're right. You just you you the they use they use the pastiche of those kind of musical interludes of those late 40s, early 50s musicals, and you're right, it just adds this extra layer to the movie, both both internally into the narrative and just meta, because this is Liza Manelli, you know, on these sound stages that she grew up on, made up very much like her mind, you know, and there's so many layers to this number. And then when you look at the way that it defines what Francine's been going through, it it's so incredible and to think that you know it was cut from the movie at certain points. It just it doesn't make sense. Well, of course, as he cut it, he did. Yeah, I know. He said because the movie was coming in at what, four hours? And his he said his ad he said the studio didn't tell him to do it. He said he had friends and advisors who said you might want to think about cutting happy endings. And since it was the first scene that he shot, he kind of he kind of lost perspective, he said, of it. Because it was the very first thing I shot, and I had a totally different movie in my mind. He thought maybe I have to think about what serves this film better. So it was cut, it was cut in its initial release. But then when the film was re-released in 1981, he put it back in and he said the movie works better with it in. He said it's the the happy endings brings a balance to New York, New York, that it's missing when the entire musical number isn't in it. Isn't that fascinating? It is, it really is. So, you know, it's like born people always bitch about Born in the Trunk adding 20 minutes to a star is born. But have you ever seen uh any of the cut? Well, they never cut Born in the Trunk, so that's not fair. Um, but I mean I've seen New York. I know, yeah, yeah. Well, I know like you know, friends when I whenever I show friends singing in the rain, they hate the Broadway ballet. They can't stay, you know, and it's always um, you know, or the or the girl hunt ballet in the bandwagon, which I think is hysterical. Um but yeah, it's all but yeah, it's always yeah, they're I mean, I mean that those sections of the movies always have their detractors. And they do, and I I I saw the very first time I saw New York, New York, I saw it without happy endings. Um the I think the very first videotape had it without happy endings. Um and it just starts with girls, girls, girls, all the other stuff, aces high, you know, the all that stuff that Peggy Smith goes through isn't in it, and it does seem unbalanced. It's like, oh, oh, okay. Okay, so she's doing a movie. But when you get the whole idea of this is not only Peggy Smith's story, this is Francine Evans' story, it really I think it's wonderful. I think it dressed home. I think so too. So we come to the climax of the movie after this. Francine's a star. Jimmy also finds success uh as an improvisational jazz musician. He opens his own club, Hello La La Land, becomes a huge star, has a hit recording with their song, the New York, New York theme. The theme from New York, New York. And Francine is now playing a big concert, guess where, in the very room where they met, all the way back on DJ Day. So Jimmy goes to see her, and what does she sing, Brandon? The one positive thing to come out of their relationship, their uh collaboration, New York, New York. And their son, too. And their son too. Yes, this is the moment Liza sings New York, New York. And I definitely want to get your take on this, but did you know that that was the second version of New York, New York that was written? I had read, yes, I hadn't I had heard that before, absolutely. Because De Niro didn't like the first one. De Niro didn't like it. De Niro's fascinating. De Niro thought it was weak. Can you imagine? You're okay. Fred Ebb and John Cander, cabaret, Chicago. I mean, Fred Ebb and Zorvis Breeze they're gonna trust Travis Bickle to tell them what's right, what's wrong. And Travis Bickle goes, nah, the song's weak. So Fred Ebb said they were pissed. So they wrote kind of out of spite and very quickly wrote a second version. And guess which one that was? That was that that isn't incredible. You know what, you know, though, it's reminiscent of uh Tom Drake being the one to convince uh Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine to change have yourself a merry little Christmas. Right? I know exactly. It's like, well, okay, I guess listen to Robert De Niro. He obviously knows what he's talking about. I guess I guess so, yeah. But no, but uh man, I mean, it's it's one of the most stunning musical numbers ever filmed, I think. I just from from beginning to end. I mean, performed, shot, everything else. She there's a scene, okay. She's dressed, she's got a like a big black buffant on, she's got a long red shirt, she's got black sheath pants on, and the very first scene before she starts seeing is shot uh it's shot from behind her towards the audience, and she turns around and her head is down, and I swear to you, it's her mother. I mean, she looks so much like her mother in that one shot. It's scary how much she looks like Judy. You think for a moment Judy came in and then she left again because it was MGM after all. Um, yeah, she looks so much like her mother. It's scary. And she sings New York, New York, but it's not, it's not Jimmy Doyle's version of New York, New York. It's not this jazzy improv. It is Showbiz with a capital S. It's Liza singing New York, New York with with the uh the hand rolls and the the dice throws and everything she does when she sings she sings New York New York in real life. Same thing. It is balls to the wall, New York, New York, and of course it's it blows everybody away. It's huge, it's a huge success. Yes, yes. It's incredible. So we come to the final scene. We come to the final scene, and this is really where I want your take, Brandon. Yeah, because I have a controversial opinion about this. Okay. So the she sings New York, New York. They're all in her dressing room at the end. Jimmy comes in, congratulations, blah, blah. There's too many people that can't talk. He leaves. He then calls her on the phone and asks her if she wants to have Chinese food. And she says, sure. Yeah. So everybody's gone. He says, I'll be waiting at the stage door. He's standing out there outside the stage door waiting for her. We see Liza, she's in her coat, she's getting ready to leave. She walks up, she turns the corner and she sees the stage door, and she stops, and she turns around and walks the other way, and gets in an elevator and leaves. And Jimmy's outside, realizing she's not gonna come. He turns and walks away, and the last shot we see are of his shoes. That's perfect symmetry. Perfect symmetry. And that's the end. They don't get together. Do you think? Now, here's my idea, here's what I've heard, and here's what I think happened. Okay. Liza says, and I think most people, the common take on this, is that as she's walking to the stage door, she has a flashback of all the horrors of their relationship, and she realizes I can't do this anymore. I've got to move on. And she turns and walks away. So it's her decision. Yeah. Then he leaves. This is what I think. And I like this better. I like this better. Okay. I think it's miscommunication. I think it's absolute miscommunication. He said to her, I'll meet you at the stage door. He is waiting outside the stage door. She is inside the stage door. She walks up and sees the stage door and he's not there. He's outside and she doesn't come out. So once again, this miscommunication they've been having for the last two and a half hours prevents them from getting together. So she turns and walks away, and he turns and walks away. That's the way I think it is. What do you think of that take? I think that's an amazing theory. I just think that I just think that her eyes during the that sequence say so much more than it being just kind of a, oh, I thought he was going to be there kind of thing. I I think you can just see the thought process in those puppy dog eyes of Liza as she's looking toward the stage door of what is this going to mean if I walk out here and where is this going to go from here? I have a I have a son now, I don't need to put him through all of this. Like, I feel like she takes us on the journey in like that 15 seconds. Maybe not. No, I mean that's that's the standard story. I mean, that's you know, that's the story that everybody's sticking to. I I love the fact that we've just watched two people for two and a half hours, as I said, at constant odds with each other, misinterpreting, miss miscommunicating throughout this entire movie. And the final moment they have an opportunity of getting back together again. Once again, they miscommunicate and it changes the future forever. But anyway, I think it's interesting. Well, tell me, I need to I need to go watch it again now with that in mind. I do too, with apparently this whole play that goes on in Eliza's eyes in those 15 seconds. Yeah, I know. Well, anyway, that's so, yeah, so that's the end of the movie. A beautiful, beautiful score at the end, a beautiful instrumental. Oh my gosh, that arrange that arrangement of New York, New York at the very end, it's it's it's a hopeful, melancholy tone. And it's it's it's you know, I you never hear another version like it, and it's so beautiful. You don't, you don't. It's you know, it's such a beautiful, as I said, I really think it is a very flawed masterpiece. I know a lot of people who don't like this movie. Um I know a lot of people who do, and I most of them look at it as I said, yeah, it's got some major flaws, but what is right? Oh my god, it just it just takes you to a different level. And these performances are unbelievable. Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, it is like I said at the top, it's very uh it's disjointed and you can you can see the wheels turning through the improvisations at times. And yeah, it's just not all of it. I I would say I would say the whole is greater than the part in this at some time. I think it works incredibly well as one solid piece, but if you were just to pick out sections of it, you'd be like, what is what is this? You know, you you you you don't quite know. You have to watch it within full context. But yeah, it's not it's you know, it's it it's in terms of like I said, I think Liza gives a stronger performance in cabaret, but I think I think cabaret is a film, is a greater film. Um but it's just that yeah, there's just something about it that doesn't always ring authentic when you watch it, and I think that that's what turns a lot of people off. Yeah, you know, and I what makes me the saddest about this is the fact that it was really was Liza's uh you know, three strikes and you're out, you know, because after Cabaret and Liza with a Z, and she was the biggest star in the world, then she did Unfortunately Lucky Lady, and then she did A Matter of Time, and this was it. This was this was her third strike, and she was out, and she never could recapture that magic era of her movie stardom again, which is a shame because uh yeah, she should have had her head examined for Lucky Lady. I agree with you on that. She didn't make the best choices. A matter of time was very tragic the way they cut it. It was her father's final film, cut it. But this was such she put so much into this. They all did. This was a valiant, valiant effort. Yeah, and the fact that it was a financial failure, uh critically mixed financial failure, is really gut-wrenching, you know. It's also timing. Yeah, did you know that so this film was released on June 21st, 1977? One month after a little movie called Star Wars. Star Wars changed the narrative of everyone in Hollywood, everything, you know. Suddenly, you know, who were movies now going to be designed for? Kids. What what what are we gonna talk about? Marketing and merchandising and you know, action films and sci-fi, and this kind of really gripping human drama, not to mention musical, it just it never would, it would never really come back. If if it had come out one year earlier in 76, there might have been hope for it. But yeah, 77, uh yeah, you know, 77, you're right, is when everything, you know, definitely, you know, definitely changes. I mean, you look at the the highest grossing movies that year, it was Star Wars, it was Smokey and the Bandit, it was movies like that that really were more yeah, that that really lent themselves more to you know action, and the the the summer blockbuster started to become a thing at at that point. And uh and you know, Liza would she would rebound in '81 with Arthur, but she had to take second billing to Dudley Moore at that point. Supporting, yeah, supporting. And and then she's wonderful in it. There shouldn't have been a sequel to that. I love Steppin Out. Stepping Out's wonderful, but Steppin Out was a small movie, didn't really make any business at all. And this was really her last shot. And that for me that's that. Meanwhile, De Niro and Scorsese go on to Raging Bull. So there's just something incredibly unfair about how this turned out. She had such good intentions and she gives a phenomenal, as I said, I feel, I feel it's her best performance in film. I think she is she is unexpected. The thing she does, she really digs into this character and doesn't rely on the air quotes Liza Minnelli that we all know. Yeah, she really goes for it. She really goes for it. I think what's probably good is it was reissued in 81. It was kind of uh some revisionist critics, people began to appreciate the flawed brilliance of this movie, uh, what Scorsese was trying to do. And it's one of those films that as the years go on, it gets appreciated more and more and more. Until, you know, it's still a cult film, but yeah, a hell of a cult film, in my opinion. A really, really wonderful film. Yeah, yeah. Now I think I think this is a movie the further we get away from it, the more and more it becomes uh the the I I think the more palatable it becomes in people's eyes, because I think we're used to now more frenetic, off-beat type off-beat type material. And so, and so yeah, I think that it definitely lends itself more maybe to 2026 than it even did in 77. Well, it certainly worked in 2016 with a movie called La La Land. That's all I gotta say. There's your proof right there. There's your proof right there. And of course, the and of course the big difference is in La La Land at the end, the two of them before they leave lock eyes with each other and know it's kind of over. There is no miscommunication. There's no, yeah. It's not left open-ended, and I'm sorry. I prefer this. I really do. Well, thank you so much for joining me on this journey through the past and the present and the future. New York, New York. Um, I know your podcast, Front Row Classics, is still going strong. How many episodes are you up to now? 454, I think, or something. Oh my lord. Maybe. And I've got maybe seven or eight in the can. Wow. Wow. I'll probably I'll probably take a little bit of a break this summer because I I'll be uh uh toward the end of June, beginning of July, I'll be heavily in um involved in a show. I'm in 1776 currently in rehearsal. So uh so but but I've got enough banks where I can release a fully regular schedule even when I'm doing the show. That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, thank you so much. Um, I so appreciate you joining me today. And ladies and gentlemen, help me thank our fabulous guest, Brandon Davis. Everybody applaud um for joining for joining us today. Brad will be back next week. Oh, I forgot to do the whole housekeeping stuff he always does about rate, subscribe. I just always forget to do it because that's what he does. But anyway, thank you everyone for your reviews, for your for subscribing, for following us. It's it means so much to us here. Um yeah, and I think that's it. That's that's New York, New York. Um, thank you, Brandon. Um, thank you everybody for and do me a favor, if you have about a day and a half, go watch this movie. I really think if you if you've never seen it and you only know Liza as cabaret Sally Bowls or as as Liza, um, yeah, just go watch it. Because I guarantee you, you're gonna be blown away by this performance and by this film. I think so too. It's unlike anything that has ever been done. So well, I guess that leaves us with one thing left to say, but since Brad's not here, I'll have to say it myself. Goodbye, everybody. Ebbity, every that's all, folks.