Tony Maietta: 0:04

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeta.

Brad Shreve: 0:08

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta: 0:11

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve: 0:18

And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta: 0:23

As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve: 0:28

Tony, you know why we are doing this episode.

Tony Maietta: 0:31

No, I don't. I'm hiding the corner. Do it yourself.

Brad Shreve: 0:38

Listener, Tony has hit a major milestone, and I am so proud of him. He doesn't mean his age either.

Tony Maietta: 0:46

Not yet. Not yet.

Brad Shreve: 0:48

Well, you've told me a little bit about your past. You should be proud that you've reached it this far as well. But shut up. A few months ago, Tony did a spot for Wired magazine. I guess it's a magazine. They have a YouTube channel. It's very popular where experts, experts come on and they answer questions. And Tony was invited on to answer some questions. The title of the show is Film Historian Answers Old Hollywood Questions. Right. Tech Support. The show's called Tech Support. So Tony was a guest and just recently hit the 1 million views.

Tony Maietta: 1:23

What? Get out. What? Is that true? Is that true? Like I wasn't sitting there. Like I wasn't sitting there watching it like a ticker tape. Ooh, 977,001. 977,002. I don't know. What happened? Suddenly, one country must have just all listened to it at once because it went from it was like stalled at 994. And then suddenly, the next thing I knew, it was a million. So yes, thank you, Brad. Thank you for that intro. We talked a bit about the Wired video when we talked about uh Seven Year Rich because of the Marilyn Monroe question. And it was an incredible experience. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to Wired magazine. Have me back. Have me back, please. I was so grateful to Wired magazine. I'm so grateful to the people who submitted the questions. And it's such an interesting concept. You know, it is. It's experts, and I'm honored and humbled to be called that. Um, but I mean, I there's channels up there. Who's up there? There's people who talk about etiquette up there. There's people who talk about politics up there. I think uh I think there's Arnold's on one of them, which I'm not thrilled to be on the same podcast as Arnold, but what are you gonna do? Uh Arnold's on there. Marky, I almost called him Marky Mark. What the hell? Hello, 1993. Mark Wahlberg is up there doing one. So yeah, I feel I feel in really vaulted company in that.

Brad Shreve: 2:45

It's great. I've seen everything from stand-up comedians talking about what makes things funny to scientists talking about what happens when you die in a nuclear war. I mean, it's across the board.

Tony Maietta: 2:56

I'm somewhere in between. Yeah, I'm somewhere in between Matteo Lane and Dr. Fauci. Yes, somewhere in there is me.

Brad Shreve: 3:05

Old Hollywood. We'll let you decide which one he's closest to.

Tony Maietta: 3:12

Yeah, that's very true.

Brad Shreve: 3:13

So the thing is, these episodes are usually about a half an hour long. Tony's is uh 25 minutes, and he had to answer a lot of questions. I did. And I know Tony. To answer a lot of questions in 25 minutes is not his thing.

Tony Maietta: 3:28

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 3:30

He clearly had to either edit himself or was that.

Tony Maietta: 3:34

I had no, I was not probably a little of both. I did not edit, if you notice. Uh, it was not, please, I wasn't editing this. They edited it. They edited it. If you think if I had edited it, I would have said, My God, what's going on with your hair? That's the first thing I would have said was, can somebody get him a comb, please? Um, we do this without makeup, folks. Um, so yeah, no, I didn't edit it. They edited, they edited it. And it's interesting how they did it. They did a lot of jump cuts, which I guess is what the kids do today on the internet on the internet. Yeah, jump cuts are very big on YouTube. Lots of jump cuts. And so they cut out some things. I was like, oh, that was a fun, I just had a joke there that you cut. Oh, you cut that joke. But anyway, nitpicking. So thrilled. I loved the questions. I loved the questions. Um, and we have, you know, and so Brad and I were talking about it, and we thought for those of you who didn't have a chance to see it, or for those of you who maybe did and want more information, because I hell, as Brad just said, I had a lot to say, and a lot of it was cut. Um, so I can maybe give some more information. So, do you want to tell people what we're gonna do in the structure of this episode of Going Hollywood?

Brad Shreve: 4:41

Well, there are certain questions that were asked that I had a particular interest in, and of course, you weren't given time, just the format of the show, to answer them as thoroughly as I would have liked. So I want you to elaborate some of the things that you just want to do.

Tony Maietta: 4:58

Let's let's give it a shot. Let's see what happens. It could get dangerous, but let's give it a shot.

Brad Shreve: 5:05

You are the expert, so I expect you to know all of this. Shoot. The first one I want to talk about is Natalie Wood's death. And there's a reason for this. I I am not a fan of conspiracy theories because they're 99% of them are ridiculous and usually involve so many people that somebody would talk and they would have been caught. But I've heard even though I still believe it was an accident, I've heard enough the I the possibility of a scandal it seems more real to me than other things. I still don't believe it, but it seems like a real possibility. Tell me more about Natalie's death. Okay.

Tony Maietta: 5:46

Well, you realize I I wasn't there, right? I mean, I know I'm old, but um yeah, I wasn't I I wasn't there, and what I said, what I said that unfortunately, or maybe did make it, and I don't remember. What I said was unfortunately, nobody knows what happened that night except Natalie Wood, and she's no longer with us. Um but so for people who don't know, Natalie Wood, a wonderful, iconic classic film star from the 50s and 60s, Rebel Without a Cause, Gypsy, Splendor in the Grass. Um, she died uh Thanksgiving weekend in 1981. She was found floating in Catalina Harbor. She had been out on the very cold, very wet Thanksgiving weekend with her husband, RJ Wagner, Robert Wagner, and her future and her co-star from a film she was making. The film was called Brainstorm, and the co-star was Christopher Walken. And I think it was Sunday morning, her body was discovered in Catalina Harbor. Nobody knows what happened. So Brad wants to know. So the theory is the most the most verifiable air quotes, if you can say, is that uh they had been drinking, they'd been partying, they'd been drinking, there had been some uncomfortable conversations between RJ Wagner and Christopher Walken. Natalie Wood went, you know, y'all, I'm going to bed, whatever. And she went downstairs, went down below. I'm sorry, nautical terms. She went below to their cabin, and she was getting dressed to go to bed in her and she was in her nightgown, and there was a dinghy on the side attached to the side of the boat, which it was a very, as I said, it was a stormy, cold weekend. It kept the waves kept banging the dinghy against the boat, and she was getting frustrated. So the theory is that she put her parka on, that was a downfilled parka, went outside in her nightgown, her socks and her parka to retie the dinghy, and slipped on the step going down the dinghy, hit her head, and fell in the ocean. And she had been drinking. Uh the autopsy clearly showed that she had a very high blood alcohol content. Um, but also what's really sad is that you know her parka was downfilled. So it started to absorb water and was pulling her down, which is what's really sad. So apparently, some there's some speculation. People heard someone, a woman yelling, whatever. All they know is the next Robert Walker and Robert, Robert Wagner and Christopher Walken went down and she was nowhere to be found. And you know, they called the Coast Guard and she was found the next morning. So what you're saying is that you've heard speculation, what, that there was foul play involved?

Brad Shreve: 8:24

Yes, I heard there was foul play involved. The first one I've heard is that uh supposedly Christopher Walken and Natalie were having a fling, and Robert found out about it and took matters in his own hands. The other, and I can't remember the the details that they've given to try and explain why it happened, were that Wagner and Walken together planned something. Wow.

Tony Maietta: 8:52

There are some theories. Yes, well, you know, there's a lot of speculation. There's a lot of speculation. There was actually a book, um uh Dennis Deverne, who the he wasn't the captain. I don't know what it is, so excuse me, I don't know the exact nautical term for what Dennis DeVerne was. I well, I want to say first mate, but I don't think that's right. Anyway, he allegedly he's the one with these people with conspiracy theories because he was actually he was there that night. Um, and he wrote a book about what happened. Uh, he doesn't really tell anything about what happened, he just gives his suspicions. Natalie Wood's sister, Lana, is also a great purveyor of these rumors. Um, the one, yes, uh the thing about Walken and Wood is that Natalie was just getting back into her film career. She'd taken some time off to have her family and she was coming back. She was definitely a comeback mode. And she was very, very Walken was a new generation of actor. And so I think RJ was, there was arguments, and RJ was jealous of Natalie's relationship with Walken, but it was a professional thing. And RJ Wagner admits to breaking a bottle that night up when they were up in the cabin and saying, you know, are you fucking my wife, or something like that? And I want to point out there's a wonderful documentary on HBO that Natalie Wood's daughter made, um, called What Remains Behind, I think that's the name of it, and goes into this. Um, where Robert Wagner confesses, yes, there were words. But the idea that there was some kind of illicit relationship, no. I don't, I don't think that holds water. I certainly don't believe that the two of them got together. Natalie, RJ Wagner, they were remarried, you know. They fell in love when they were very young, they had difficulties, they split up, and then they found their way back together. And I think what's so sad about it, regardless of what really happened, the reason that doesn't seem right to me is because I because why? Why would RJ Wagner do this? Natalie was the love of his life. They came back together after being separated for so long. The man was clearly devastated. He had two young daughters. I just I don't believe that. I believe it was a tragic accident. But again, the only person who really knows what happened is no longer with us because it was Natalie Wood. Just a very sad, sad ending. The fact was also very sad is that that becomes the focus of Natalie Wood's life, not the incredible body of work she left. Sex in the Single Girl, Gypsy, uh, Bob Carroll and Ted Nalis. You know, I mean, these this wonderful, not even to mention Rebel Without a Cause. That becomes the focus, is how she died, not how she lived. I prefer to think how she lived.

Brad Shreve: 11:24

That's the way I feel about it. Let's leave it at that and think about the great things she did in her life.

Tony Maietta: 11:29

Yes. The documentary is called What Remains Behind, Natasha, Gregs, and Wagner's. Beautiful, beautiful tribute to her mother. There's also a book.

Brad Shreve: 11:36

So next question. Next question from the internet. The next question is about Elizabeth Taylor. And this is one I probably should hang my head in shame because you talk quite a bit. People are asking about Elizabeth Taylor, and you talk about some of the great movies she uh it w it was in and what a megastar she was. And you know, I've seen very little of Elizabeth Taylor, and to say I'm not a huge fan, I'm gonna say that, but it's not very nice because I only knew her in her later years when she wasn't.

Tony Maietta: 12:04

You want to know about Elizabeth Taylor's films? You want to know about her career?

Brad Shreve: 12:09

I don't know a whole lot about Elizabeth Taylor other than the good works that she did. I know very little about her film career. And off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that I I really was astounded by. So I would like you to tell me, if I'm going to gain an appreciation for Elizabeth Taylor, what should I watch? Oh, okay.

Tony Maietta: 12:29

Well, I think that that question from the internet that was funny because I think the question was my roommate told me he didn't know who Elizabeth Taylor was, and I almost had a stroke. And my my response was, I had a stroke reading that question. But they cut that, which I thought was very funny. Um so which film? Well, you know what? This is a long movie career. I mean, Elizabeth Taylor was in films from the time when she was a child. National Velvet to uh I think she was in the Flintstones. I mean, that's a long movie career. National Velvet, I think, is 46, 47. Don't hate me if I'm not exactly right with that. Um, but she was a young girl. So, films to watch. I mean, it depends on what stage of Elizabeth Taylor you want to see. For me, number one, front and center is her Oscar-winning performance in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? To me, I think that she gives one of the greatest film performances of a theater piece ever. Ever. Now, that, you know, I'm sure people will have debate about that, but Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf is a very talky, very stagy play. And Mike Nichols, who directed it, managed to make it a very cinematic film, which is not an easy thing to do. We've talked about movies like that. Hello, we just talked about the bad seed and how it's just basically a filmed play. Um, and Nichols was able to do things, but primarily what he was able to do was get cinematic performances out of these actors. Every one of them had worked on theater except Elizabeth Taylor. And Elizabeth Taylor gives such a nuanced spectrum of emotions in this film. I would, oh my god, it's it's heartbreaking. I was we should talk about who's afraid of Virginia Wolf sometime. Because she goes toe toe toe to toe with Richard Burton and she does not hold back. She is loud, she is abrasive, she is ballsy, but she's also in moments when it counts, she has a wonderful monologue at the screen door, very quiet, very real. And I hardly recommend that. If you want to see a really great Elizabeth Taylor pre-Richard Burton film, I highly recommend Suddenly Last Summer. In fact, I think I was gonna suggest it as one of our air quote scary movies this month because this is you know, because it's a very it's a notoriously campy. Have you ever seen Suddenly Last Summer with uh uh Catherine Hepburn, Montgomery Clift, and Elizabeth Taylor based on the Tennessee Williams play? No.

Brad Shreve: 14:56

Um based on the cast, I'm almost certain I have not.

Tony Maietta: 14:58

It's a brilliant film. Uh, I'm not gonna go too much on the plot because I hope we talk about it sometime. But she's wonderful in it. She is raw. She is she basically plays a woman who's fighting her aunt not to force a lobotomy on her. Tennessee Williams. Um, yeah, it's it's starling. She has a wonderful scene, breakdown scene. She's wonderful in it. Uh, same thing with Cat on the Hot Ten Roof, which is right before Suddenly Last Summer, another Tennessee Williams play. Um, and I would really recommend for people, and don't laugh at me, I would recommend Cleopatra. Cleopatra, despite its reputation, is a wonderful film. Now, yes, it's way too long, and there's an actually an incredible, there's a lot of incredible stories about Cleopatra, which I we don't have time to go into. But you have to take your mind out of the fact that you've heard this is a terrible bomb, this was the biggest bomb in the in the world. No, it eventually made a profit. Now, it changed Hollywood, and we're not going to go into that, but she in Cleopatra, directed by Joseph Mankowitz, Joseph L. Mankowitz, who also directed her and suddenly last summer, gets a wonderful performance from her. And she fell in love with Richard Burton during the making of it and caused this huge scandal, La Scandale, condemned by the Vatican. Um, and you see that, you see the tenderness in her when she's with Richard Burton. You she also has a wonderful relationship with Rex Harrison as Julius Caesar. Highly recommend it. So I think those would be three. I would definitely remind Virginia Wolf, Suddenly Last Summer, if you want to add to that, Cat on the Hutton Roof, certainly, if not just to see Paul Newman in his shirtless glory. Um and then if you have a couple weeks, Cleopatra. That's the ones I would recommend.

Brad Shreve: 16:46

And I do want to ask about one particular movie, but first I want to comment about Cleopatra. I I know I watched it ages ago, but you know, usually a box office bomb is a reflection on the quality of the film, but not always. There have been some great films that were bombs, it's just a matter of circumstance. So I'm gonna take your word that maybe this was the situation with Cleopatra. I do want to ask about Giant, and uh there's a particular reason and I am going off track here because this isn't what you discussed. Only because I remember it being a really good film, but it was ages ago, and now I'm wondering if it's just because I like the cast.

Tony Maietta: 17:19

Well, I gotta warn you. First of all, I want to say Cleopatra was not a bomb. That's Cleopatra was the highest-grossing movie of 1963. It was not a bomb. Oh, it made more money than any other movie in 1963, but it also cost more than any other movie in film history. So it took a while to make a profit, but it eventually did, and it continues to. So the myth about Cleopatra being this huge bomb is a myth. It's also a myth that it bankrupt 20th Century Fox. It did not bankrupt 20th Century Fox. Um, it didn't cause the studio to sell their backlot. That was happening long before Cleopatra was ever in production. So those are just myths about it. Um, Giant. Giant is a great film, but I'm not, I don't want you to watch it because it was directed by George Stevens. And we all know how Brad feels if you've listened to this podcast, how Brad feels about George Stevens. She's good and she's not it's not a movie I would recommend for Cleop to see Elizabeth Taylor. It's a movie I'd recommend if you want to see an epic, huge giant, what you know, what was emblematic of the mid-50s, and and Rock Hudson gives a wonderful performance, but I wouldn't recommend it for Elizabeth Taylor. James Dean also, his last film. Uh he died when they were still filming. So if you want to see an epic, a grand epic before the the huge, huge epics like Cleopatra, then I would absolutely recommend Giant. It's a wonderful film, but it's George Stevens. Just I'm just saying that.

Brad Shreve: 18:46

Well, I'm amazed I said I remember liking it. Oh, right.

Tony Maietta: 18:49

Maybe we watched the wrong George Stevens movies.

Brad Shreve: 18:52

Well, I have some more questions, but first, you had some things you wanted to say about some of our listeners.

Tony Maietta: 18:56

Oh my god, we got some reviews. That yeah, let's take a little break because there's there's reviews that that okay. I'm sorry, listeners, audience, I didn't realize that you could leave reviews on Spotify. I'm new to this podcasting thing. It's so funny. And I just like was all of a sudden I was like, oh my god, there's reviews from Spotify. And I just want to say, um, the thing about Spotify is that you you have to go through the specific specific episode for the review. So I just want to say hi to Daniel Lancaster. This is um, he's left us other reviews before. We've talked about him before. You you know who I'm talking about here, Brad, right? He's he's from Switzerland, which uh love you already that you're from Switzerland. Um reserve me a room. If I can't yeah, just reserve me a room. Um and he uh he he was very he was very, very, very flattering, Brad, about our two Golden Girls episodes. And he said it made him he and his partner want to re-watch this great show again because it was so advanced and they spoke about so many current topics. So we are so happy that you're listening, Daniel. In Switzerland, which is amazing. And Gestad? Is it Gestad, maybe? Um, love it. Zurich. Oh, is it Zurich? It's Zurich. I'm sorry. Okay, well, Brad knows. Zurich. So thank you. And then Sam Wise, and I'm gonna read Sam's. Uh Sam Wise said, Tony, you're really just going to drop the fact that you were on an episode of Golden Girls and not fully flesh out that experience. Question mark, question mark, question mark. It must have been the Manja Cavallo curse. And I'm pretty sure when I just went back and watched that one, I spotted you in the background of a few scenes. Wow. Daniel, yes, it was the Manja Cavallo curse makes a lousy wedding present. Season five. You have good eyes because I don't even recognize myself when I look at the Manja Cavallo curse. Because wow, I'm just uh 22-year-old, fresh face, huge hair. Oh, I miss the 90s. Um, it was a wonderful experience. I didn't want the Golden Girls episodes to be about me and shut up, Brad. I didn't want them to be about me and my experience on Golden Girls. I just mentioned that I was on Golden Girls to give the context, primarily about the B. Arthur Betty White thing, and just to say, look, I was there, I was on the set, I saw nothing of these rumors that these women didn't like each other. And I also think it's pretty cool that I was on Golden Girls. I mean, it's something that I'm very proud of. So yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was an incredible experience. I was there almost the entire week. So I got to talk to Betty White about the Mary Tyler Moore show. She said it's as Betty White was, she was so gracious, so kind. Um, she said it was just like working on the Golden Girls, the kind of love on the set. And there was one very funny thing, though, and this is the last thing I'm gonna say about it, because this really is about me, and I don't like that. Um, so we're sitting at the we're sitting at the table, this the one of the scenes takes place at a wedding reception, and it was a very long, it was the last day, and it was a very, very long shoot, as you can imagine. There are a lot of people. And we're sitting there, and uh Rue turns to me and the girl who was playing my date at the wedding, and she says, Still want to be in show business? It's tedious, isn't it? Oh wait, wait, no, no, that was wrong, that's wrong. I got that backwards, I got the backwards, I got the backwards. Wait a minute. We're sitting there, I'm sorry, memory, we're sitting there, and B. Arthur turns to me and the girl I was sitting with and says, Still want to be in show business. And then Rue said, It's tedious, isn't it? And I just remember her leg was crossed and her leg was bouncing up and down with her high heel. It was just it was a rheumaclantic thing. Anyway, that's it. That's my gold girls experience. Thanks.

Brad Shreve: 22:35

And I have a couple to add to this. Uh, one is Nicole Maddox, and we have a big apology to give Nicole because she has not just commented, she's commented numerous times. And uh I'm gonna go back to her very first one that I see. And she said, I just want to pop in and say, I love this podcast. I'm a big classic movie lover and enjoy the back and forth commentary. And uh, she makes some recommendations and then says, keep up the great storytelling, gentlemen. Then one of her more recent ones is from I Remember Mama. And I'm only bringing this one up because she put, love the show, gentlemen. Tony, let's give Brad one more chance with George. Which is I which is funny because that leads us into the giant, and I didn't remember having seen this, so that was totally plan. Yeah, there you go. Yes.

Tony Maietta: 23:27

He liked a George Stevens movie, even though he doesn't remember it. Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 23:31

Yes. So as I've said before, I don't want to make promises, but this one I'm gonna put on the agenda somewhere. So coming up, we will have another one. And she's made some comments since then as well. She's great, thank you. She's great. Yes. The other person uh was Jeffnician. I love your name, Jeffnician. And uh he commented that he loved they shoot horses, don't they? And just wanted to say excellent pie. Oh, that's nice. Thank you to all of you.

Tony Maietta: 23:57

Thank you, thank you. You know, we just I've say a million times, we appreciate it so much, and we're gonna continue to give updates with these reviews because I think it's important because we we appreciate it so much. We want to say thank you. You know, we we love we appreciate we want to give the love back, you know, through the through the Ethernet or whatever the hell this is. So please give me a break. This is how we get paid. Exactly, exactly. We're the we're rich in this kind of thing. So thank you so much.

Brad Shreve: 24:26

So back to some more questions. Closeted stars that we now know were gay. I'd like to know a little bit more about them. Not just rumored that we can go there. I mean, I've heard rumors and I I just can't believe them that Sarah Ian McKellen is gay. Well, you know, I don't like you know I don't like dealing in rumors. So when you answer this question, I wanted you to focus on the people most people that are probably not aware that we're closeted gay. If there are any left.

Tony Maietta: 24:56

Well, I mean Well, that's the thing. I mean, who has a secret anymore? Up so many people people are dead. Because I don't like, you know, I I don't like trafficking and speculation. Um I I can't really say unless it's common knowledge now. How would I how would I know that? I wasn't there. I know. Same thing with Natalie Woods the day that the night Natalie Wood died. Um I've I could maybe like far did I mention Farley Granger? I think I mentioned him on Ward. Farley Granger, who wrote a book called Include Me Out, was pretty open though during the Golden Age, which was which was very, very scary and very unusual. For Farley Granger's he was a gorgeous man. He I was actually in a relationship with Arthur Lawrence, who we talked about during Rope. He and Arthur Lorentz, or Lawrence, whichever you want, um, were in a relationship, and I think during the time they were making rope, too. So uh Tab Hunter, uh who came out later, he wrote a wonderful book called Tab Hunter Confidential. And he and Rock Hudson, who you might have heard of, once or twice. We were both represented by the notorious Henry Wilson. Henry Wilson was pretty much uh the man who invented these people. He invented a bunch of these. Um John Saxon was also one of his clients. RJ Wagner was one of his clients. He represented these beautiful boys back in the 50s. And he actually sold Tab Hunter was before Rock, and he actually sold out Tab to Confidential Magazine to protect Rock. Confidential had a story about Tab attending an all-male party, and they were going to publish it. And then they had one about Rock. Well, Rock was a bigger box office star. So Wilson said, if I give you this on Tab, will you forget about Rock? And that's exactly what happened. So, and then of course we have Montgomery Clift, who was gay at least bisexual, but pretty was pretty much standard gay because he also had a relationship with women. Um, but he was had a relationship with Roddy. Maybe Roddy's somebody that you don't know offhand that Roddy McDowell was was gay. We don't really think of Roddy that because Roddy wasn't a sex symbol. I don't think we necessarily think of Roddy in sexual terms, although he was adorable. Um and Roddy was definitely in love with Montgomery Clift. Definitely. Uh they they had a relationship of some kind. So uh there's Roddy as well. Um, Jack Larson, who played Jimmy Olson on the Superman series, uh, was also a dear friend of Montgomery Cliff's and also in that kind of gay sewing circle. There's one I didn't know. Um, and you know, lesbians, Garbo, Dietrich, it's hard because as I said before, like with Cary Grant, it's hard for us to take our 21st century ideals of what sexuality is and put them on 20th century, mid-20th century, because it was just different. You know, people weren't necessarily gay, lined, straight, kind of like the kids are now. You know, we said this before. They got the right idea. They're just whatever attracts them is where they go. So you had people like Garbo who had relationships with men and relationships with women. Same thing with Dietrich. Mercedes DeCosta, good friend of Garbo's, same thing. Although I think she was primarily lesbian. And of course, Hepburn. Hepburn had relationships with men, Hepburn had relationships with women. Hepburn was just Hepburn. Same thing in Cary Grant. Cary Grant was mostly interested in Cary Grant. So if it was going to be a relationship with a man that would push him forward when he was in the theater when he was Archie Leach, probably had a lot of relationships with men. Ori Kelly, we talked about that, the costume designer. Um, but then when he got to Hollywood into a much more conservative atmosphere and a much more conservative environment, and he became Cary Grant, you know, he had to then start. He was then with women. He was married five times. Um, did he have a relationship with Randolph Scott? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? I wasn't there. So those are some of the people I can think of.

Brad Shreve: 28:55

And there are a lot of articles online about him and Randolph Scott, and but none of them seem like very um sources that I would necessarily trust. Not distrust, but I don't know them enough that I would trust them. So the next question I have is about Shirley Temple, who we knew is one of the biggest stars that ever happened back in her day. And then she vanished and showed up in politics. Uh I don't think she ever ran for anything, but she was an ambassador and uh was meaning seen in political circles.

Tony Maietta: 29:24

No, she did.

Brad Shreve: 29:25

What happened in between? Did she decide to did she back out on her own, or did Sollywood say, this little girl's gotten too old? What happened?

Tony Maietta: 29:32

Well, it's funny because I think the question on Wired was Shirley Temple didn't know she was a real person, just thought she was a drink. And I was like, what? Do you think someone just named a drink Shirley Temple? Just hello. Yeah. And it's called Shirley Temple because it doesn't have alcohol because she was a child. She was the incredible thing about Shirley Temple was from the time she was six, she was the top box office star in the world from 35 to 38. She was the number one box office star. From the time she was six, she was making $2,500 per week, which today is about $60,000 a week. So she was making $60,000 a week back in the 30s.

Brad Shreve: 30:13

Not bad for a six-year-old.

Tony Maietta: 30:15

Not bad for a six-year-old. And she made more. I mean, that was in 35, so she was a big star until about 38, 39. Um, in her first film, Bright Eyes, where she sings on the good chip, Lollipop. In 34, she won a special juvenile Oscars. You know, but there's just some there's some funny rumors about Shirley, which I wasn't able to talk about, which I think are hysterical. One of the rumors was that she wasn't a child at all, but a 30-year-old dwarf. I'm gonna believe that one just because I want to. Because it's just like, how can a child be this engaging and this talented? It's the thing. But she was talented as a child. As she got older, it became more and more apparent that that was that was a unique situation because she was so precocious as a child. You know, famously we talked about it in our Wizard of Oz episode. They thought about her for a second to play Dorothy, but there ain't no way she could have sung that score. There's just no way. She wasn't, didn't have the depth of talent of a Judy Garland or Deanna Durbin, other big child stars, or a Mickey Rooney, I gotta tell you. Um, so she as she got older and her appeal dwindled and she left Fox, she signed with MGM because the idea was that maybe she could join Judy and Mickey in some of these let's put on the show musicals that they were always doing. So she did. She did a couple hits in the 40s, uh, Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer, uh, since she went away, but then she pretty much disappeared in the 50s. She had a TV show. Um, she did that for a while, but she did. She reappeared as a delegate to the UN, appointed by Richard Nixon, because she did run for office. She ran for a seat in Congress in nine in the late 1960s, but she lost. And she was also a conservative Republican, but that meant something different than it does now. Um, so anyway, she has she was appointed by Nixon as an ambassador uh as a delegate to the UN. She was later an ambassador to Ghana. And you know, Ford, Gerald Ford actually considered her as a running mate in 76. Um, but it wasn't, you know, we know that didn't happen. And she then was appointed the first female chief protocol of the U.S. in 1977. And that's a person who advises the president and the secretary of state on diplomatic protocol. And she didn't serve it during the Reagan era because she supported George Bush in 1980 and not Ronald Reagan. Um maybe she knew him from Hollywood. But she was eventually, uh, when Bush became president, she was ambassador to Czechoslovakia. So that's a little bit about Shirley Temple's complete resume that didn't make it onto the wire thing. It was. It's interesting that she went into politics and was very successful. Very successful. You asked me about Loretta Young, too, because there was a question about people, no, the question was Hollywood scandals. Do you have any Hollywood tea? And I think I brought up Clark Gable allegedly being a gay hustler uh and picking up George K-Corps before he was a star, which is a which is a leg, which is a urban myth, urban legend. Who knows if it's true? Uh close Clark Gable was actually an extra in Ben Hur in 25. So who knows? And then they end up on the set of Gone with the Wynn, but that wasn't why George Kor was fired from Gone with a Wynn. He wasn't fired because he was gay or because Clark Gable was nervous that they had hooked up one time. He was fired because he wasn't giving the film the energy David O'Selznick wanted. But anyway, so I talked mostly about Loretta Young because I think Loretta Young is a scream. What happened to you to uh with Loretta Young? So what happened with Loretta Young was Loretta Young was, first of all, I want to say she was a top star in the pre-code era. And she frequently played gangsters and good time gals. And you can imagine what I mean by good time gal. You know, there's a great, a great movie she did called Midnight Mary. And so she was very, she was a hot woman. She was a beautiful, gorgeous woman. She looked a lot like Joan Crawford. Um, and she was also good friends with Joan Crawford.

Brad Shreve: 34:15

Um in the pre-code era, you could really be a good time gal.

Tony Maietta: 34:19

She was, she was. She was all like all these gals. They were really sexually ambitious, sexually explorative, explore, they explored their sexuality. I guess this is what I want to say. Sexually free women in pre-code that all disappeared by the time the code came down in 34. All gone.

Brad Shreve: 34:35

Yeah, women didn't have uh orgasms after that until the 70s.

Tony Maietta: 34:39

Exactly, exactly. So she was able to change her image uh to something much more pure and much more pristine because she wasn't actually, she was a in in reality, she was a very, very strict Catholic. But she had an affair with the very, very married Clark Gable when they were making a film appropriately titled Call of the Wild, and she became very, very pregnant. Now, she didn't know what she was going to do. She was afraid if people found out 20th Century Fox, her studio, they would force her to have an abortion. She was very, very Catholic. There was no way she was going to have an abortion. Um, so what she did was she left Hollywood for a while, had the baby, put it in a convent orphanage because she was Catholic, came back to Hollywood, waited a few more months, then went back and picked her up and adopted her, brought her back to Hollywood and raised her as her adopted daughter for the rest of her life. But as I said in the interview, the problem was this was fine when she was a baby, but as the little girl, her name was Judy, got older, she started to look more and more like Clark Gable and Loretta Young. You just you can't. She had the Gable ears, which her mother had to have pinned back when she was seven because people were whispering about the rumors. So these rumors were all over the place. And then after Gable died, Judy confronted her mother and said, Finally, are these rumors true? Am I really your biological daughter with Clark Gable? And Loretta Young famously said, Yes, yes, it's true. She probably grabbed her, clenched her fist to her chest and said, Yes, you're a walking mortal sin. You are my sin.

Brad Shreve: 36:27

Can you imagine your mother saying that to you? No, but you know what I love about this story? It sounds like days of our lives. It does. Well, Loretta, she was a hoot. She's a ridiculous soap opera story.

Tony Maietta: 36:41

She was a hoot, and she was one of my favorite stories about Loretta Young, which didn't make it on, was Loretta Young was she got to be, I mean, for this woman who played these good time gals and pre-coach, she became very, very notoriously strict. On her sets, she actually had a swear jar. So if you dropped a curse word uh on a Loretta Young set, you had to put a quarter in the swear jar. Loretta would be there with the swear jar, shake it, and say, put your quarter in, put your quarter in. But there's a very funny story. Maybe it's apocryphal, maybe it's not. I don't know. I love it though. They were on the set one day, and it was either Barbara Stanwick or Ethel Merman or Robert Mitchum who did this. Okay. They let some expletive flow. Loretta put out the swear jar, and whoever it was, one of these three people, reached in their pocket, took out a 20 and said, Here's 20 bucks, Loretta. Go fuck yourself. So I can imagine either one of those three people doing that. I love the fact that it was either Ethel Merman or Robert Mitchum. Who knows? Go fuck yourself, Loretta. Oh God, she was a piece of work, Loretta Young. She really was.

Brad Shreve: 37:55

I love those stories. I knew nothing about Loretta Young, and then it's interesting. But I could go on with more questions. But you mentioned you wanted to talk about something that wasn't classic Hollywood.

Tony Maietta: 38:06

Yeah, I guess I don't know. You know, I don't know about you, but I don't God. Do you ever go online? Do you ever go to YouTube? All the time. Is it just me, or is there a proliferation of trash stories about Sarah Jessica Parker and Kim Cattral and this whole and just like that thing? I just, it makes me sick to my stomach. It just is like, oh, come on. Really? You people really have nothing better to do than talk about this. Who cares? I'm you know, whether or not and just like that was a good show or not. That's what I'm talking about. It's just like, I don't understand this. People, I mean, they analyze it like to death. And so I was listening to this really, really interesting podcast called Origins, which was done before and just like that. It was done right, it was about Sex in the City, it was three episodes. Um, and it's a with a very reputable host, and I can't remember his name right now, off the top of my head. But anyway, he interviewed all these people about you know what happened with the last movie of Sex in the City and why it didn't come together, and the whole thing with Kim Catrol and Cher Jessica Parker, and the fact that, you know, what made it fall apart. And he interviewed Michael Patrick King. And Michael Patrick King, who, if we don't, if you don't know, didn't create Sex in the City, but he was the showrunner. He took over from Darren Starr, who created it, and ran the show, ran the movies, directed, wrote them. So Michael Patrick King is basically the force behind Sex in the City. And he's also very close with Sarah Jessica Parker. He spelled it out very clearly. The fact that Kim Catrall wanted parody. She wanted to be like the friends were. She wanted all of them to get the same amount of money because in her mind, Samantha was just as important to the show as Sarah Jessica, as Carrie Bradshaw was, as Miranda was, as Kristen Davis, as Charlotte was. I know she was the gay man's favorite. Well, and and Kim Cotrell said she was the favorite of all these people. So she couldn't understand why she couldn't make as much money as Sarah Jessica Parker. Well, and this is what Michael Patrick King said. And he said, you have to go all the way back to the beginning of Sex in the City. And you have to realize that when Sex in the City first happened, HBO was not the HBO we know. Okay? It was not the home of succession and of even the sopranos. HBO was a place where people went tuned in to watch boxing. That was it. It was not HBO. It's not TV, it's HBO. And in fact, Cynthia Nixon said when they were first starting Sex in the City, the first group of people really who would come up to her and compliment her were usually African-American men because they were watching HBO to watch the boxing, and then this show would come on called Sex in the City. But anyway, so this show is at this network, which is not which is known primarily for sports unboxing. Sarah Jessica Parker was a movie star at this point. There's no denying that. First Wives Club, LA Story, uh Honeymoon in Vegas. These were big movies. And Sarah Jessica Parker starred in them or was very prominent in them. So she was a movie star. And back in the 90s, we don't know this, we don't see this today because everybody goes everywhere. You can see Nicole Kidman in a film, and you can go see her on a, you know, something on Amazon Prime. Um, they didn't do that before. Movie stars did not come to television, it just didn't happen.

Brad Shreve: 41:30

Everybody immediately knew their career was over.

Tony Maietta: 41:32

Exactly.

Brad Shreve: 41:33

When that happened.

Tony Maietta: 41:34

So you're Sarah Jessica Parker, you're a bankable movie star, still making movies. You get this offer to do this show with the word sex in the title. HBO also had a show on called Real Sex, so you can imagine the confusion there. You get this offer to come on this show, TV show, for this network that's not really a network. How do you do that? Well, the contract that Sarah Jessica Parker got through her agent was unbelievable. Unlike any other contract has been before or since. Not only money-wise, but in the fact that it made her an executive producer. So they weren't like the friends. They were, you know, other Courtney Cox had done movies, but they were all basically, when the friends all got together after like the third or fourth year and said we all want to be paid the same, that's okay. They were all pretty much at the same level when they started. That was not the case. Sarah Jessica Parker was a movie star making a big risk to her career putting her name on this show. And then the rest of them, Ken Cottrell had done Mannequin and a couple other movies, and the other women had done really great work, but they weren't huge stars. Cynthia Nixon was a theater actress, and Kristen Davis had done Melrose plays. So when so that's the problem, is that then the show takes off. Sarah Jessica Parker has this contract that not only makes her the highest paid because she is the movie star who got this whole thing going, but makes her an executive producer, which is where the money really is. And that was the problem with the disparity in the salaries. Kim Cottrell wanted to be equal. She wanted them to all be equal. Now they all got raises if the show went on, but they were never gonna be what Sarah Jessica Parker did. Because if you notice, every single poster for Sex in the City says Sarah Jessica Parker. It doesn't have all four of them listed, it's just Sarah Jessica Parker. She was the star of the show. Now here's the really ironic thing. So when Kim Cottrell blew up Sex in the City 3, the movie, um, and it was over, and I'm like, okay, I guess this is the end of the franchise. And then they re-revamped the script from Sex in the City 3 and turned it into and just like that, because in the third movie that never got made, Big died. So they made that into and just like that. They got parody because and just like that was a different entity. Suddenly they were all executive producers and they had that parody that Kim Catrell wanted, and she would have gotten if she hadn't shot herself in the foot. So there you go. That's how life works sometimes. I just find that fascinating that people want to dump on Sarah Jessica Parker, who, from everything I've ever seen or read, or people I've ever talked to, was is just a very, very good leader. Kim Catrell even said that. And a very, very fair, kind woman. I mean, I don't know her, but anytime I've ever seen her, she's been interacted with a very, very nice person. So that's what I wanted to say about that. Done.

Brad Shreve: 44:37

The only other thing I gotta say about this is Kim Ctrell was the better Savik when it came to Star Trek. Much better. Much better than Kirsty Allen.

Tony Maietta: 44:46

And I love Kim Cottrell. She was brilliant as Samantha. I missed her as Samantha like everybody else.

Brad Shreve: 44:51

Yeah.

Tony Maietta: 44:52

The show was not the same without Samantha. Yes, this is not. I think Willie Garson even said, God rest his soul, Willie Garson even said that we're not talking about, we're talking about somebody who's a brilliant actress here. This woman is a brilliant actress. She deserves to get paid her worth. However, it's never going to be the same as the woman who started this thing. It's like Vivian Vance saying, I want to get as much money as Lucy. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 45:16

This was fun. Well, we'll have to consider doing some of these again in the future. Just some random Hollywood questions.

Tony Maietta: 45:21

Yeah, it was a nice change of pace.

Brad Shreve: 45:22

Listener, tell us what you think. Do you like these?

Tony Maietta: 45:25

If you like Tony just being on the hot seat.

Brad Shreve: 45:28

Yes. And if you if you don't, be kind about it. Yes, be kind. And you know how you can tell us, you can text us in the show notes. There is a button there. All you gotta do is click that button. We can't respond directly to you. We can only do it on the air. But if you click that, you will pop up on your phone and you can just send us a text and say, hey, I think it's a great idea, or I'd rather hear about movies directly.

Tony Maietta: 45:49

Yeah, that's true. That's true. And they can also follow or subscribe to the podcast. And um that would be great too. And again, we really, really appreciate these, these reviews and these ratings. Thank you so much, everybody, for listening and for being so kind in your in your comments. We'll be back for our final uh air quote scary October episode. We got one more to go, one film, which was actually a request from a from a listener. And I could not be more pleased. I can't wait to talk about it. Because I've been wanting to talk about this movie for over a year. Last Halloween I wanted to talk about it. Yeah, it's been on our agenda. It's been on and off. It'll be fun. It'll be fun. Well, Brad, in that case, I guess there's just one thing left to say. But I've been talking and talking and talking, so I don't want to say it. But I'll just say this. Let's not say goodbye. Let's just say au revoir.

Brad Shreve: 46:42

No, I've heard enough of you talking. Let's say goodbye. But anyway, what I was saying was Go bye, everybody. That's all, folks.