Tony Maietta:
 Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta

Brad Shreve:
 And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies. 

Tony Maietta:
 We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too. 

Brad Shreve:
 And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter,

Tony Maietta: 
 as does your self-delusion. 

Welcome to Going Hollywood. 

Tony Maietta:
Brad, we got some sad news this past week about one of our friends of the pod. Do you want to tell everybody?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It was actually very sad. And I reached out to you right away and you had just heard about it.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Polly Holiday, who is most known for flow analysis, who we talked about just recently, unfortunately.

Tony Maietta:
Just recently? Yeah, just recently we talked about Polly and we talked about Florence, Gene Castleberry, we talked about Alice, and ironically, we're in the middle of our happy birthday Golden Girls episodes. And Polly Holiday appeared on Golden Girls in the very first season in an episode called Blind Ambitions. Do you know who she played on Golden Girls, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Well, if she was blind, I know the storyline, so I'm going to guess she was somebody's sister, I think.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Was it Blanche's sister?

Tony Maietta:
No, that would have made sense because it's Polly Holiday and she could have done a Southern accent, but that might have been. Yeah, two on the nose with love. No, she was Rose.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't remember Blanche ever talking about her sister again, so I didn't think so. But I know that she came on somebody sister and then she was like most of the guest stars on Golden Girls. She was never seen or heard from again, so.

Tony Maietta:
Right. No, no, no. She. She played Lily Lindstrom, Rose's sister, in the very first season. You know, Polly Holiday. What. You know, not only created one of the most memorable sitcom characters ever, in my opinion, Flo, but she was the inspiration of sorts for Dorothy Michaels in Tootsie, because, as we said, she. She taught Dustin Hoffman how to do the.

Tony Maietta:
The Southern dialect for. For Dorothy Michaels with Meryl Streep. So, I mean, that's. That's. That's just wonderful. That's. God bless. What a talent.

Tony Maietta:
The last surviving original cast member of Alice. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I didn't realize, and I. I'm blanking on her name. The one that played Vera, I didn't realize that she had died.

Tony Maietta:
Beth Howland.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
You've probably blocked her from your mind since you dislike her characterization so much. Unbelievable.

Brad Shreve:
I had no problem with the woman. I think she's probably lovely. I think she's probably. Probably a great actress. I just didn't like the scripts I gave her.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So speaking of sisters, you know, Blanche had two sisters. Blanche had Virginia, who appeared twice, played by Sherry north twice, and Charmaine, who wrote a book, a romance novel that Blanche thought was based on her life. And she's like, vixen is based on my life. Anyway, those were Blanche's sisters.

Brad Shreve:
Now, did that remain two sisters? Because I Know these. These folks?

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
The number of children and the number of siblings they had changed. Change throughout the series as well as their age.

Tony Maietta:
Interesting you should bring that up, Brad. And honest to God, this wasn't prompt listener, we're going back to our Golden Girls. This is part two of our Happy Birthday Golden Girls. And one of the things I wanted to do, Brad, was I wanted to go over the characters again because I wanted to talk about siblings and children, and I wanted to kind of test your knowledge here. Now, I don't expect you to know this right off the top of your head, so no worries about it. And I have notes, but frankly, I would know them off top of my head anyway because I'm such a Golden Girls fanatic. Yes, of course. Let's do that.

Tony Maietta:
Let's. Let's talk about these characters. Let's reintroduce everybody to what we're doing today. The golden girls. Happy 40th birthday, golden girls, part two. So let's do that. Let's go over the. The characters and the actresses and their relations, if you will.

Tony Maietta:
Sound good?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And we can do this much quicker than we did the last one week.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, but it'll be fun. Come on. It'll be like. It'll be like when Dorothy. Dorothy and Rose were on Jeopardy. Well, that was a dream.

Brad Shreve:
That.

Tony Maietta:
And all the questions were cow questions.

Brad Shreve:
Or farm questions, just like they did with Cheers when.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, very similar went on there.

Brad Shreve:
And it was all postal worker questions. Very, very similar, though that was not a dream.

Tony Maietta:
All right, so Dorothy Petrillos. Vorknak Hollingsworth, because she becomes Hollingsworth in the last episode we're going to talk about today. She had. Do you know how many children Dorothy had?

Brad Shreve:
No, not the top of my head. I do not.

Tony Maietta:
She had two. She had a son and a daughter. Her son's name was Michael, and he was portrayed by the same actor twice. The heartthrob. At least he was a heartthrob to me. Scott Jacoby played Michael in two episodes, and her daughter Kate was. Was played by two different actresses in two different episodes. Sophia Petrillo.

Tony Maietta:
Weinstock. How many children did Sophia have, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Well, I. I'm gonna guess that one changed. Let me. Let me just toss out three.

Tony Maietta:
That's right. Yes. Of course, we have Dorothy. We just talked about. We have Dorothy's sister Gloria, who also made two appearances played by two different actresses. And we have, of course, the unforgettable, the irreplaceable, and unfortunately, the deceased Phil. Phil of the Air Quotes. And I'm only going to use this term because that's the term they use in the show.

Tony Maietta:
Cross dressing. Phil was a cross dresser. There's a very touching episode, I believe, in the sixth year of Golden Girls in which Phil dies and Sophia confronts her feelings about the fact that he liked to wear clothing of the other gender. And it's a very moving episode with. With. With guest star Brenda Vaccaro. Next we have Rose Lindstrom, Nyland and Brad, who's another Lindstrom that we've talked about recently on Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
Lindstum. Oh, a Phyllis, of course.

Tony Maietta:
Of course. So isn't it kind of interesting that they named her. Her maiden name is the same name as her mtm. Nemesis, Phyllis.

Brad Shreve:
Well, they are both from Minnesota.

Tony Maietta:
They are. But I just think it's funny that, you know, Sue Ann, when Betty White played Sue Ann, she slept with Lars, had an affair with Lars, and then they name her character on Golden Girls after they named Lindstrom.

Brad Shreve:
I think that that is funny. That never clicked.

Tony Maietta:
It's kind of odd, isn't it? I think maybe people in TB think third, the only Nordic surnames are Lindstrom and Gustavsson. Not on the Golden Girls, though. We have a whole slew, which I'll. We'll get to.

Brad Shreve:
You know what? You made me feel bad because I worked on a short story that I haven't sent out to be published yet. And of course, I use the last name Gustavsson. But anyway, now I'll have to change it.

Tony Maietta:
Rose had, and this is my best, at my best knowledge, because Rose would add a child every once in a while. Rose had five children. Kirsten was on the show, Bridget on the show, and then Gunilla, Adam and Charlie Jr. We never saw the latter three, but we saw Kirsten and Bridget on the show.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, well, I'm going to take note of Kirsten because I have a question when we do a brief discussion of the final episodes.

Tony Maietta:
All right, great. And finally, we have, of course, last but never, ever least, Blanche Elizabeth Devereaux, spelled D E V E, R A U, X, but pronounced Devereaux. However, as Dorothy points out, there is one instance in which Blanche's name is pronounced Deverux. Do you know when that is, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
No, I've never heard anybody say it as Devaroux.

Tony Maietta:
It's only pronounced Deverex in limericks. Ah, you can work that out for yourself, can't you?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Devereux and limericks. And Blanche has five children. Janet, who we see on the show, Rebecca, who we also See on the show, Doug Biff and Skippy, but Skippy's name is Matthew Skippy. And then finally, you know, we didn't talk about this guy last time, Brad. And it's very important we talk about this guy because he's a huge part of the show. None other than Stanley's Bornak himself. Yes, the great Herb Adelman, who played Stanley, I think in like a dozen episodes or even more over the entire run of the series. And did you know that Stan was not going to be anything but a minor kind of character? Came like once or twice.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. Did you know that that is not uncommon for them to like an actor and then continue.

Tony Maietta:
It's not. They like that. Well, he had such great chemistry with Bea Arthur and Bea Arthur loved him. And so that's why they always brought Stan back. And he was. He was a wonderful character. I love their relationship. Their relationship is one of the funniest, richest relationships, I think, in sitcom history.

Tony Maietta:
I think those two have.

Brad Shreve:
I can easily see the two of them being good, real life friends.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, no, I'm sure. I'm sure they were. So speaking of Nordic names, as we talked about, I would love now to just give a brief rundown of some of St Olaf's most illustrious characters.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I'm anxious to hear this one.

Tony Maietta:
Whose names, at least their names made appearances, usually in a St. Olive story, once in a while in a phone call. But yeah, who made their appearances on the Golden Girls? So like I said, I think most of Hollywood thinks the only two Nordic names are Lindstrom and Gustafson. But Golden Girls gave us Lucky Gunther. And you know the story of Lucky Gunther, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
No, I won't know the details of these stories.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
I just.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I'll tell you, I'm kind of.

Brad Shreve:
Glad because every time I watch these reels that pop up, they. I just laugh hysterically at them.

Tony Maietta:
Hysterically. Lucky Gunther is the St Olafian who lost his arms in a thresher accident and they were replaced by a pair of forceps. So after the accident, he was in charge of delivering babies and. And handing out corn on the cob at Rotary picnics. We had Gunilla of Statter. We had Ingmar von Bergen. And can you guess what Ingmar von Bergen's profession was? Brad, by any chance acting? No, close though. He was St.

Tony Maietta:
Olaf's meanest ventriloquist.

Brad Shreve:
I actually do remember that reference.

Tony Maietta:
Turn around quick. His lips are moving. Then we have Gunilla Bjorndonker. Now this is a very sad story about Gunilla Bjorndonkar. She was St Olaf's tallest high school student who drank some cherry herring and got knocken up and spingled by Yats Hernsberg, St. Olaf's only bald high school student. I wonder who that could be standing for. But it's very sad.

Tony Maietta:
Did you know. You know, she got. She got knock and up and spingled by Yats Hernsberg in the back of his fior Fierlane, which was a local car, sadly. Do you know how Gunilla met her untimely end?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I'm not even gonna guess.

Tony Maietta:
Skylab fell on her. And then we had Big Sven, Little Sven, Fat Jerry, and, okay, my very favorite of all the St. Olafians, Little Yemeni. Now, Little Yemeni, you could be forgiven for not knowing who Little Yemeni was because Dorothy brought up Little Yemeni because Little Yemeni was a boy who was raised by a moose. But may I remind you, Brad, that that moose not only raised Little Yemeni, he put him through medical school.

Brad Shreve:
I'm sitting here thinking it must have been the moose on Northern Exposure to have been able to afford to put her through medical school.

Tony Maietta:
So, anyway, those are just a handful of the illustrious citizens from St Olaf. I thought it would give us a nice warm up to come into our second episode of the Golden Girls, where we're celebrating the 40th anniversary. And as we did last time, we're going to talk about two episodes and the finale. So it's actually like four episodes because the PI. The finale is two parts.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, it is. And I do have a question. I'm gonna. I'm. I'm really hesitant to ask this because I. I'll let you know in a minute. Did Betty white on these St. Olaf stories, did she wing it sometimes?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, my God, no. Are you kidding? How would you ever wing those names?

Brad Shreve:
You know what? Tim Conway probably could have.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yes, exactly.

Brad Shreve:
But. But. And I don't expect everybody be Tom Tim Conway. And I just. I wanted to believe that she did, even though it seemed very unlikely.

Tony Maietta:
But the sheer.

Brad Shreve:
God, they were priceless. Just her. Her way of presenting them. What I'm not everybody could have got away with.

Tony Maietta:
What I'm always blown away by and is the fact that these are complex stories with these names, you know, Edgar von Bergen, Little Yimini. I mean, you have to know these names. Gustav, you know, exactly. See what I'm saying? Gunilla, Bjorn Dunker. I mean, Betty White had to memorize these things. And you know how I always do reels of the show for Instagram and Facebook and you know, Instagram has to be a minute for a story and a minute 30 for a reel. And so I thought, oh, I'll do some St Olaf stories. Most of them are over two minutes.

Tony Maietta:
So I'm thinking Betty White. Betty White memorized these two minute monologues over and over. What a genius actress this woman was. I don't think people realize that. It's incredible.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, she was a tremendous actress. And I don't know how many takes it took sometimes, but I, I'm always amazed when I watch that she says it's so matter of fact as if it's a true normal story. Like Rosewood.

Tony Maietta:
Not as many takes as it took Estelle Getty to get through one of her picture at stories. Yeah, that, that, that, that could be painful. That could be painful. So before we get into the show, though, I did think it was important for us. Last episode we addressed the coco in the room. I think we need to address a certain rumor that has been out there probably for the past 15, 20 years, pretty much ever since Bea Arthur died. And that was.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'm glad you brought this up because I'm gonna guess it was the rivalry because I. Yes, this is something I've always heard and I've never known if it was true. So I'm anxious for you to get into this.

Tony Maietta:
It's. Yeah, the bad blood between Bea and Betty. Basically the fact that Bea did not like Betty. And I've heard this, you know, and I. In the last episode, I kind of came out of the Golden Girls closet and admitted that I was on Golden Girls and Brad disparaged my participation in it by asking me if I had any lines. No, I didn't have lines. But I gotta tell you right now, unlike Gloria Beatty on they Shoot Horses, don't they? I was not an extra. I was a day player.

Tony Maietta:
I was there, I think, three out of the four days during the week. So I was there frequently because I. Because I had a job to do. I played an usher at a wedding. And so I had specific things. I had costume fitting. So I was not an extra. But anyway, I was on the set.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. Three out of the four or five days that they were there. And I only ever, ever, ever witnessed absolute professional behavior between the two and respect. In fact, I remember in my episode, which is in season five, Bea has this big brown dress on. And I remember during, when we were taping, she's like, I don't like this dress. This dress. What do you think? And she turned to Betty and she said, what do you Think of this dress. Do you like this dress? And Betty goes, you look pretty, honey.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, so there wasn't. There was no kind of animosity there that I witnessed. Now, however, I'll put a caveat on that. In that Bea Arthur. I don't think it's a surprise. Anybody could be a pretty salty broad. And one of Bea Arthur's favorite words began with a C and ended with a T. And she used it frequently.

Tony Maietta:
And according to Marcia Postner Williams, one of the producers, she used it frequently in regards to Betty.

Brad Shreve:
Now, usually that is not done in a nice way.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I believe, as I said, Bea liked to use it. I knew some people who knew Bea Arthur and. And she used it frequently in her. She was just a salty broad. She just liked to throw it around, you know what I mean? So it doesn't necessarily. She wasn't screaming it, but, yeah, she would probably be irritated and she would probably. That's the word she would use, you know. But Marcia Postner Williams said in 2025 this year, she said that those two couldn't warm up to each other if they were cremated together.

Tony Maietta:
Now, I think, okay, there's a certain. Gotta think about this, okay? These two actresses were very different. Bea was trained in theater. Betty was a TV baby. She'd been on TV since the 40s. And Betty, like, for example, when she would tell us a story and she'd go off script, she would break the fourth wall and make a comment out to the audience. You know, she would totally do that and get right back into it. Bea hated that.

Tony Maietta:
That's not what you do in the theater. You keep going, or you. Or you make a mistake and you go back, but you don't break the illusion of the reality by. So that kind of irritated Bea that Betty would do that. And I just think they were just two different people. Betty White said that her positive, sunshiny attitude might have annoyed Bea Arthur. Sometimes she was just a little too positive, a little too Miss Sunshine too much. And maybe that got.

Tony Maietta:
That wore on Bea Arthur's nerves. Who knows? Who knows?

Brad Shreve:
But Betty could be pretty salty herself.

Tony Maietta:
She could be, but it was always wrapped in that cloak of sunshine and that positive thinking. So I think that they're just two different people. Two different actresses had two different ways of approaching work, you know, and that's just who they were. But they also always ate together. I'll never forget that. Whenever we would break, when I was taping my. The show I was on, and we'd have our lunch breaks, the Four of them always went off together, every single lunchtime, ate together. They didn't hang out afterwards.

Tony Maietta:
You know, I don't know that they did, but I. I always heard they didn't hang out with each other, you know, when tapings were over. But there was. There was a real friendly, work, like, professional atmosphere there. So I think that's the best way to look at that. Air quotes, rumor that they didn't like each other. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
You know, Matthew Perry. We know Matthew Perry had some problems, and so there may be more to this story, but when Courtney Cox was asked why she didn't invite Matthew Perry to her wedding and basically they were trying to jerk up that there was bad blood, her response was, we were co workers and we were work friends.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But you aren't always personal friends with your work friends.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
Nothing bad between us. It's just that that's the way it works out sometimes. And that's probably what we're talking about here.

Tony Maietta:
I don't go to lunch with any of my work friends. I don't really have work friends. I mean, yeah, I think that we have two adult women who were professional and had respect for each other, but may not have been buddy buddy. Plus, Rue and Bea had a history, as we said, they worked together on Maude. Rue and Betty had a history. They worked together on Mama's Family. So it just isn't. You don't always have to be buddy buddy with the person that you're.

Tony Maietta:
That you're working with.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly.

Tony Maietta:
All right, so we're going to get into these new. These next episodes. And I think what I wanted to say was, was that, you know, as Brad and I talked about in the last episode, this series kind of has a natural break because at the end of the fourth season, it seemed like the show was getting a little stale. I remember this. I'm like, these episodes are getting kind of stupid. There's one episode where Rose thinks Bob Hopes her father. And I was like, oh, I think we've jumped the shark, people. Not good.

Tony Maietta:
So Susan Harris obviously thought that too. So she got a whole new creative staff on whole, a whole new bunch of writers to help reshape the show and get it going again. I love this group of people. Two of the people that she hired were none other than Mark Cherry, who would later go to create a little show called Desperate Housewives and Jamie Wootton. And what was interesting about Jamie Wootton and the Mark Cherry is that they were homosexual. I'll use the word from the 80s. They were gay.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And so they were in this room full of heterosexual men, these two gay women, these two gay women, these 2 gay men in this room full of heterosexual men. For a show that is about women, it's strange that the primary writers were all men. And, you know, people always said that Golden Girls wasn't really about women, it was about gay men, which. They said the same thing about Sex in the City, which is just stupid. No, it's about women. But these gay voices, these new voices, and these two gay voices definitely gave a different flavor to the show in its last three seasons. What do you think about that, Brad? Have you ever thought about that? Has ever occurred to you that the end of the series is a little bit different than the beginning of it?

Brad Shreve:
No, I haven't. And I didn't know that. And it's surprising that I didn't catch that. Probably if I watched, you know, we binge watched it and. And yeah, it went through so many fluxes. I probably. That's probably why I didn't catch that. That in particular.

Brad Shreve:
It doesn't surprise me that two gay men were on there. And I really wish I had the clip and maybe I'll. I'll look for it. Is when I think it was Rue McClenahan that addressed their gay following and why she thought maybe, you know, it. Yeah, but they addressed it and they were like.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I mean, she was grateful for. I think she said something because they were, you know, because they were fabulous. Because, you know what, they dressed fabulously. They had lots of sex. They talked openly about sex. And, you know, although the wardrobe, I mean, you know, it's very 1980s, but, you know, it's interesting. So the costume designer for the Golden Girls was Judy Evans, and she created the Golden Girls looks for each individual character. Four distinctly different looks.

Tony Maietta:
Beautiful. Bea Arthur hated to wear shoes, so she's very frequently barefoot or she's in sandals. And she also liked big, long, flowy things because that's who Bea Arthur was. She was big, long, flowy woman.

Brad Shreve:
Now, I heard that, you know, that was her outfit on Maude, and that's when she clued in that she liked that outfit. I don't know if she did that before Maude.

Tony Maietta:
Well, the thing about what Maude always.

Brad Shreve:
Wore, though, she dressed almost exactly like.

Tony Maietta:
She did on Maude, except 70s version. Well, the thing is, also, Bea Arthur. Bea Arthur lost a great deal of weight between Maude and Golden Girls. I mean, you see her in the pilot of Golden Girls. She's thin. I mean, she's a very you know, she's. She's much thinner on Golden Girls than she was on Mod and Mod. She was a bigger woman.

Tony Maietta:
So she always had to wear those long vests on Maude to kind of slim her down. On Golden Girls. Yeah, she liked the bigger sweaters because it was more comfortable. But it was also the 80s, big sweaters.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Big skirts, big shoulders. I mean, it was the 80s, Rue. Now, Rue had specially designed clothes. And Rue had a special clause in her contract that allowed her to keep all of her clothes that were specifically designed for her.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm glad you validated. I heard that was the case.

Tony Maietta:
It's true. And so when she died, a friend of hers got all of her belongings and he opened a restaurant in Washington Heights, I believe, in New York uptown called Cafe Rue. I went to it. I remember when I went to it, and there was a line down the block and he displayed many of her costumes, many of her Blanche costumes. So, yeah, she kept all her costumes. And I think Rose, you know, Rose would. She would always be in big silly sweaters and. Or plaid things.

Tony Maietta:
And of course, then there's the Sophia look, which is iconic. But, yeah, the costumes are definitely one of the things that make that scream. This is an 80s show.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, yeah. Especially the shoulder pads.

Tony Maietta:
So much so. So much so. All right, so there's so many wonderful episodes that we weren't able to talk about. You know, I think I should say that the first episode of the new team is a really wonderful episode called Sick and Tired. And it's kind of a famous episode because it deals with chronic fatigue syndrome. Do you know this episode, Brad? I do.

Brad Shreve:
And I do know that Susan Harris had chronic fatigue syndrome, which is one of the reasons she left the show.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, it was. And she. This is one of the reasons why she wrote this episode. Because what happens in the episode is Dorothy has this. She's feeling lousy and it's not going away. She has this flu she can't seem to get rid of and nobody can find out what it is. She's getting all these tests and nobody's believing her that she's sick. So it's really a moving and touching.

Tony Maietta:
It's a two part episode and it's a great episode. It's a very good episode. Bea Arthur has an epic put down in the second episode of the Doctor who told her to go get a different hairstyle. It's just a great. It's like a Dixie Carter type of, you know, sit down and listen to me type of monologue. And The B plot. I love the B plot in this show. In the B plot, Blanche has decided to become a romance novelist.

Tony Maietta:
And Rue McClanahan has one of her funniest, funniest scenes when Blanche enters the kitchen after having been up for 72 hours writing so damned funny. She's just totally off the charts. But anyway, we didn't take that episode. And as I said before, it's so difficult, because when I was looking through these episodes, I found almost something fun. In almost every episode, it was either an epic Dorothy or Sophia put down. It was an insane St. Olaf story or an insane Blanche story. But we had to choose.

Tony Maietta:
So my first episode is called Mrs. George Devereaux. It is from season six, episode nine. It was written by Richard Valkyrie and Tracy Gamble, directed by Matthew Diamond. It aired November 17, 1990, and it guest starred George Grizzard and, wait for it, Lyle Wagoner and Sonny Bono. Blanche, I. I know you're shocked and that this has caused you incredible pain.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, you might say that. Now, I didn't do it to be cruel.

Tony Maietta:
It may seem cowardly, but I. I didn't know how to tell you that.

Tony Maietta:
I just couldn't be married to you anymore. How could you say that?

Brad Shreve:
It's Lyle, isn't it? I'm just confused. I. I need time to think.

Tony Maietta:
What's there to think about? Sonny has the eyes of a poet. The soul of a poet. Hey, you're through with those furry vests, aren't you?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yes, ma'. Am.

Tony Maietta:
Take her. Blanche, are you okay? No, I'm not okay. I feel like I'm going insane. My life's been turned upside down. Just so we're in sync, is this husband back from the grave thing right? Yes, you twit. My husband, who abandoned me nine years ago and shows up now just to tell me he couldn't stand being married to me.

Tony Maietta:
Blanche. Excuse me.

Tony Maietta:
I've had some experience in marital discord myself. Sonny Bono.

Brad Shreve:
Get off my.

Tony Maietta:
This episode, as I said, after the fourth season, they got this new creative team in. The show kind of changed, and it kind of started to go in interesting, kind of occasionally surreal directions. You know, there's an episode near the end of the series where they all. That Rose has a fantasy. They all have their heads frozen, and they're all at this table, and they're just talking heads, things like that. In this episode, same thing. Because in this episode, what happens is that George Devereaux comes back from the dead, but he's not really dead. He faked his death because he got into same business problems, and he confronts Blanche, and that's the A part of the story.

Tony Maietta:
Do you remember what the B part of the story is, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
The B part of the story is Bea Arthur having both Lyle Wagner and Sonny Bono fighting for her heart.

Tony Maietta:
I love it. It's so funny. So Bea had done this very funny Cher impression the year before when she and Sophia entered themselves in the Shady Pines Mother Daughter beauty pageant.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So I think that was kind of the catalyst for having Sonny Bono come on, because. Yes, because she does a little. Babe, I got you, babe. It's so funny. It's so out there. I find this episode very touching. I find Rue McClanahan. I find Blanche incredibly touching in this episode.

Tony Maietta:
And what I think is interesting about it is the fact that, you know, Blanche, the slut, the tramp, we know all about that, but we. What I love about this is it really shows Blanche as a loving woman. This man is the man. This was her great love. And he comes back, and she doesn't know what to do, and she's very torn. She's very angry. And I think that, you know, it's. I just think this is another side of Blanche, and it helps humanize Blanche and gives Blanche a real empathy.

Tony Maietta:
We get. We have some empathy for Blanche and what she must be going through. She just humanizes her, don't you think?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Especially at the end. I really like the way we'll get to it. I wasn't fond of this episode, and there's very.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, you weren't?

Brad Shreve:
No.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, well, why don't you. Let's talk about. What weren't you. What weren't you fond of?

Brad Shreve:
First of all, I just thought it was ridiculous. I thought I had forgotten this episode. So the whole premise where her husband is actually alive, I'm like, oh, this is so. This is so cheesy. Then the fact that she was willing to accept him back or was debating, and the fact that Rose and Dorothy were encouraging. I'm like, no woman would encourage. You know, this man bailed on her. No woman is going to encourage her and support her going back to this guy so quickly.

Brad Shreve:
At least give it some thought. So the whole time that's going on, I'm, like, angry, because that didn't seem realistic. The other thing is, I thought the Sonny Bono, Lyle Wagner thing was very funny, but it was a little too over the top for me. So the whole time, I'm just like, this episode is just nuts and not in a good way. And then in the end, when it was a dream sequence. I hate dream sequences. I hate him in novels. I hate him in.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, Kathy in Wuthering Heights. That is a different story. But as a rule, dream sequences, I don't believe belong in any story. I think it's either poorly done or lazy writing. And I was. I was like, oh, good God. Well, at least this wasn't true. But this whole episode, I just want to erase from my memory, really.

Brad Shreve:
That's why I'm not. Yeah, I will say I laugh. There were definitely funny moments. Yeah, I will say that I thought it was well done. I just don't like the whole premise.

Tony Maietta:
See, I. And I have the. Obviously have the opposite reaction. I love the fact that it's. That it's a dream. I love the fact that this is. What I mean about this show going in different directions with this new creative team is that they're not afraid to take these risks. And the episode starts.

Tony Maietta:
We don't know it's a dream until the very end when Blanche wakes up.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
And. And realizes. But what's brilliant about the writing of this episode is during the episode, during the plot of the episode, Blanche tells the girls about this dream she has, this reoccurring dream. She has that Jordan. Exactly what's happening in a reoccurring dream. So that plants the seed, which I think is a brilliant way of grounding this in reality. Yeah, it is silly. It's silly and it's funny and I happen to like that.

Tony Maietta:
I like the fact that this episode pushes the reality envelope a little bit more than the others do. And because it's a dream, it's. You can get silly. It's a great change of pace for me. The whole Dorothy, Lyle, Sonny story is so damn funny because I love. They're in a production of Equus. Can you think of two people who are not less suited for production of Equus than Sonny Bono and Lyle Wagner?

Brad Shreve:
And all of it's going through my mind is who. They didn't tell who the roles were. And I'm like, who was the one that got naked? I hope it was at least Lyle.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it wouldn't be the first time for Lyle. Yeah, no, it is a very. It's a very, very silly storyline. But apparently the writers were always joking about one of the husbands coming back, you know, and finding out that they faked their death and coming back. And it was either going to be Charlie or it was going to be George. I don't think it was going to be Sal. I don't think it was going to be Sal. So I actually like that.

Tony Maietta:
I like the fact that it adds another layer to the Blanche character. I love the fact that she's not just a slut, and it shows this real love she has. And the final scene.

Brad Shreve:
I think the final scene was awesome.

Tony Maietta:
Beautiful. Yes. When she's. It ends. It doesn't end with a laugh. It doesn't end with a stupid insult joke. It ends with a very touching good night, George. I mean, it's just such a sweet, sweet moment for Blanche.

Tony Maietta:
And I think it gives us. It gives variety to the show and shows other human elements that these people aren't always insulting each other and calling each other slut, puppy, and 50 year old mattress that they actually care for each other. And that thing that Rose says to Blanche to convince her to give George a try when she goes, do it for all of us who wish we had the chance, I think it's very heartfelt. I think it's very moving. So I feel differently.

Brad Shreve:
That was actually one of the times where they were trying to push her to go back with him that I.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Somewhat believable. Yes. Because she did have that second chance. And I will say, regarding the ending, after this absurd, over the top episode, which I normally like absurd over the top, but this one wasn't my cup of tea. After all of that, for them to go to this very touching scene where Rose and Dorothy are so supportive and, you know, comforting Blanche and talking through what Blanche was going through, and then, you know, Blanche coming to terms with her loss, I thought that was all really, really well done. I. And I like the fact that it ended on that note after this absurdist episode.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it was very absurdist. It was very Green Acres. I'm surprised you didn't like it, Brad. It's very Green Acres. Very Green Acres. And it's meta references.

Brad Shreve:
But Green Acres is its world. That is the Green Acres world that they lived in. This was not the Golden Girls world.

Tony Maietta:
A couple of things I really love about this episode. It's the beginning of the Shady Pines threats. Shady Pines, Ma. And this is the one where she goes, shady Pines, Ma. And Sophia goes, you're bluffing. And Dorothy goes, the West Wing. Right away, Pussycat. Right away.

Tony Maietta:
And then it has an epic St Olaf story. This is the St Olaf story of the amazing Shapiro, St Olaf's most famous obmag. Obstetrician magician. How he got Bridget behind that ace of spades. Is this your baby? Is this your baby? That tells you right there. It's a dream because it is the stupidest St. Olive story ever. But so funny.

Tony Maietta:
Is this your baby? Is this your baby? Yeah. So I love the fact that this shows a human side of these, a different side, a different color to these women. And it gives Blanche so much more, as I said, empathy, vulnerability, and really, it really plugs into the idea that George was a lover of her life and that this is a woman of substance. George, played by the wonderful George Grizzard, who was a Broadway actor who played Jamie, George's brother, the season before. So they were kind of bringing him back because he looks exactly like George. But speaking of these insults, I want to do a little quiz for you, and you should be able to get this. I think this is pretty. This is pretty easy.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, we'll see. All right, now I feel on the spot, big time.

Tony Maietta:
I'm going to give you some insults. I'm gonna. I want you to tell me who they're directed at. You don't have to tell me who said them. Just tell me who is being insulted here. Okay?

Brad Shreve:
Okay. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, you vindictive little sea monkey.

Brad Shreve:
Well, it sounds like Dorothy. And that would have been to Sophia, right?

Tony Maietta:
You raisin in sneakers.

Brad Shreve:
That sounds like a Blanche. And, oh, no, that would be towards Sophia as well.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right, but it's a Blanche. Okay, fasten your seatbelt, slut puppy. This ain't gonna be no cakewalk.

Brad Shreve:
Well, that sounds like a Sophia would say that towards Blanche.

Tony Maietta:
Right, Exactly. You titmouse.

Brad Shreve:
You titmouse.

Tony Maietta:
Who is that? Who's. Who's that? Who's. Who's. Who's the titmouse?

Brad Shreve:
I'm gonna say Rose, you cankerous little prune. Well, that's a Sophia.

Tony Maietta:
Ya bed hopping relic.

Brad Shreve:
Well, that's an easy one. That's Blanche.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right, right. Fluff head.

Brad Shreve:
Fluff head. That sounds like towards Rose.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Who's Satan's secretary?

Brad Shreve:
Who? Satan's secretary, Dorothy.

Tony Maietta:
No, you got one wrong. That's. So that's Sophia about Blanche, because Blanche is wearing a red dress to fills funeral.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, gotcha.

Tony Maietta:
Who's Satan's secretary? And my very, very, very, very, very, very, very favor. Think what you want. What do I care? Hypersexual bitch.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I believe that. Most likely it seems it's a stretch, but I'm gonna guess Blanche.

Tony Maietta:
But who says it?

Brad Shreve:
I'm debating between Sophia. Oh, no, you know what I'm gonna guess? That was one. That was a curveball to the audience. I'm gonna say that came from Rose.

Tony Maietta:
That's right. It was Rose. It was Rose. Because in this episode, Rose reveals that the Journal of abnormal psychology in St. Olaf, which makes so much sense. And Blanche says, I just don't believe you've ever read a scientific journal. And Rose says, believe what you want. See if I care.

Tony Maietta:
And then she turns and walks out, and under her breath she goes hypersexual. It's Betty White's delivery. Just brings it home. But you did really well. You got everyone but one of them.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes.

Tony Maietta:
That's pretty good.

Brad Shreve:
I was nervous.

Tony Maietta:
You deceitful little Sicilian gecko.

Brad Shreve:
Before you go forward, I want to go back to the. The warmth these ladies had for each other. I really liked about this show is that was. You knew that they loved each other. They showed that they love each other, but it wasn't too much. They didn't end every episode like I Love Lucy. And I'm sorry, I don't mean that as a slam. And I Love Lucy didn't end up every episode where they're all huddled together like after.

Brad Shreve:
After a feud, and like, oh, we all love each other and that's unnecessary. We don't do that in real life.

Tony Maietta:
You're right. You're right. That's absolutely true. It's absolutely true. All right, so that was Mrs. Blanche Devereaux. Now we're on to another episode. Brad, you want to introduce this episode?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. This one is called Where's Charlie? It aired on October 19, 1991. It's the last season. Season seven, episode five.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And the writers were Gail Parent and Jim Valley. Valley. And directed by Lex Pisaris. This is a name I'm not familiar with.

Tony Maietta:
He was the. He was the director of many of the episodes at the end of the last seasons.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, gotcha. Now, this has to do with Rose and Miles. And I love Miles because I can't believe I don't remember the actors name. He played Rhoda's father. I always love this act. Who? Harold Gould. Okay, thank you. When she said Harold, I just always.

Brad Shreve:
He, you know, he's one of these actors that pretty much is always the same, but you just love him. And does I. I was really happy that he was in this episode. And what this is about is Miles gives Rose a friendship ring, which is kind of funny because that's not typically people. Something people in the 60s do in their 60s do. And Rose believes that her husband is sending disapproval signals, including the fruit being the way it's placed in the refrigerator. But. And Dorothy writes to her late father, which was very sweet, and they didn't really get a lot into that.

Brad Shreve:
And then Blanche is dating a baseball player. This kind of hunky baseball player.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
There's a whole funny thing with that, right?

Tony Maietta:
Well, it's a whole, it's a whole reference to Bull Durham, to the film Bull Durham. Blanche is basically playing Susan Sarandon and their guests, the guest star, Tim Thomason, is basically doing Tim Robbins. So it's a whole Bull Durham takeoff.

Brad Shreve:
And I gotta say, I love it because I just really have a thing for baseball players.

Tony Maietta:
So that's why you like this one.

Brad Shreve:
I, I, Baseball is my favorite game. And I will admit part of it is because I just. A man is in a baseball uniform. Just whatever, whatever. I still like the game as well, but it, it's icing.

Tony Maietta:
Anyway, I, you digress?

Brad Shreve:
I digress. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I think that, I think I love this episode so much because it's just so silly and fun and yes, this is from the last year. And my personal opinion, most of my favorite episodes of the Golden Girls are from the last season. I think, I think there are some of the funniest, most brilliant episodes this last year. This is definitely at the top of my list because I like the Bull Durham take off. It's cute. I think Rue McClanahan looks fantastic in those off the shoulder sweaters and things. But the Rose, Sophia and Dorothy thing is hysterical. First of all, the fact that Rose gets a non engagement ring from Miles.

Tony Maietta:
It's more like a friendship ring. Kind of like Abbott would give to Costello, but much nicer. But the fact that then she goes and opens the refrigerator door and screams. And Dorothy says, rose, we've been over this many times. The light always goes on when you open the door. Doesn't mean anyone's living there. And the reason she screams is because she looked at the fruit salad and all of the cantaloupe in the fruit salad was over to one side. And that was Charlie's signal to her that he'd be reaching out to her from beyond the grave because he hated cantaloupe, he hated fruit salad, he hated when the fruit all, he hated when the fruit all got mixed up.

Tony Maietta:
And Blanche goes, then, then why make fruit salad? And Rose goes, that's an argument we must have had a million times. So Rose is freaked out about the fact that she thinks Charlie is contacting her from the other side because of this friendship ring. And Sophia, of course, makes things worse when she pretends to be, to be channeling Charlie's spirit and advises Rose to give the ring back. Because, Sophia, maybe the paper boy's right. Sophia is just a mean old lady. That's just the way it is.

Tony Maietta:
Charlie must really be upset about me accepting Miles ring. Oh, God, if I could just talk to him one more time, I would give everybody last cent I have. Wait, Rose. What? Sophia, it's not Sophia. It's Charlie. I'm of the old lady's body. Come on, Sophia, you're full of fruit salad. Charlie.

Tony Maietta:
Charlie, I want to believe it's you. Tell me something that only the two of us would know. Don't take any wooden nickels. Oh, my God, it is you. Why have you come back now? To tell you to open your heart and your pocketbook. Give the old lady money. Make it a 20. I will, but there's something I have to know.

Tony Maietta:
How do you feel about the ring Miles gave me? Uh, how do you think I feel? You must be pretty upset about it to come back from the beyond. Okay, that works. I have to go, Rose. Goodbye, my love. What happened? Why am I standing? When can I get that 20? Sophia, the most amazing, amazing thing happened. Charlie was here in your body. Really? If I'd known he was coming, I would have tied it up a bit.

Tony Maietta:
And then Dorothy. Yes. Dorothy's writing a letter to her father to get some of her feelings out. And I think Sophia says, the pop that's been dead for 17 years. And Rose keeps asking Dorothy, when are you going to mail that letter? She's like, I'm not mailing the letter. My favorite line in this. My favorite line is this. My favorite moment is.

Tony Maietta:
After yet another insult from Sophia, Dorothy stands up and says to her, do you have any idea how it makes me feel when you say these things? And Sophia says, no, after I'm dead, drop me a note. So it's a silly, silly, silly episode. What happens? So, Steve. So. So Blanche is coaching this guy in baseball, his name Stevie. And she's coaching him a la Bull Durham in which Susan Sarandon has Tim Robbins wear ladies lingerie to get the sensuality of baseball and all this stuff. So what happens at the very end, the very final scene with this Brad with Steve? Well, Stevie.

Brad Shreve:
Stevie finds he enjoys wearing what we.

Tony Maietta:
Traditionally call women's clothing and shows up at the front door in a blue dress looking like Milton Berle, if anybody gets that reference.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly. Yes. The ugliest drag queen I've ever seen.

Tony Maietta:
And Dorothy's epic line is, Blanche, you really know how to mold a man. He goes out, Steve, and comes back. Edie.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Which I'm sure goes over to a lot of kids heads these days.

Tony Maietta:
So it's. Yeah, it's very funny. You know, Sophia eventually confesses to Rose that she was playing a trick on her. She was just being mean. But she really should, you know, that Miles can love her in a way that Charlie can't anymore, and she really should accept the love from Miles and accept the ring. So in the end, it all ends happily. It all ends happily. But it's such a silly episode.

Tony Maietta:
I just find it so much fun.

Brad Shreve:
And, you know, this is one thing that bothered me in the episode is I felt Sophia was over. That was just mean. What she.

Tony Maietta:
That was mean.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It didn't ruin the show for me, but I thought, God, that's really meaner than she normally is.

Tony Maietta:
Well, maybe the paper boy is right. She's just a mean old lady. That is true.

Brad Shreve:
She's cantankerous, not mean.

Tony Maietta:
She's just mean. Well, I think that's a criticism a lot of people have of the show is the series went on. I happen to like it. I think the epic put downs are so funny, and I think the actresses play them so well, if you notice. And Rue McClanahan said this. She said the reason that Sophia can say these terrible things to her is, is because Blanche laughs it off. It's all in how Blanche reacts. If Blanche got offended at Slut Puppy at some of these things that Sophia says to her, then we'd be like, oh, what a terrible old woman.

Tony Maietta:
But Blanche finds it humorous. Blanche laughs it off, so we laugh it off.

Brad Shreve:
Well, like I said in the last episode, she embraces it.

Tony Maietta:
She does. She does. It's funny. She's just like, oh, that crazy old lady. And Rose. So many of them go over Rose's head that Rose doesn't get offended either. The only person who gets offended is Dorothy. And Sophia says, nah, when I'm dead, drop me a line.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, so that's that episode. There's a couple honorable mentions in this last year, I think. Not this last year, but in this last group of episodes. 72 hours. And that's the famous episode in which Rose may have contracted HIV from a blood transfusion, which is a really. I mean, think about this. This is the early 90s. I think this is 1990.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it is 1990. AIDS. You know, we've talked about this before. Nobody was talking about aids. And the fact that this show would. Would put a storyline out there and have Rose be the one, not Blanche, because as Blanche says, AIDS is not a bad person's disease. Rose, it is not God's punishment on people. And that needed to be heard in 1990, because I don't think we realize it now looking back.

Tony Maietta:
That was people's attitude, was that people with AIDS brought this on themselves. And so this was a really important episode. And Bravo, writers of Golden Girls and actresses of Golden Girls for putting that episode out, I agree.

Brad Shreve:
You know, 1993, I'm almost certain was the year that had the highest death rate from hiv.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And the fact that this is one of the few times it was ever mentioned on television during that time period is criminal. But wonderful reflection on this show.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. You know, some of my favorite episodes from this last season. Just a couple I love. Goodbye, Mr. Gordon. Do you know this episode? Brad, Dorothy's high school teacher, comes back, and she's always had a crush on him, and he kind of uses her, but she doesn't really see it because she has such a crush on him. But the funniest part of the episode is that as a favor to Rose, who has now become associate producer on the show Wake Up, Miami, and on the show, they're doing a show about women who live together and love each other. And so Rose begs Dorothy and Blanche to come on as guests as two women who live together.

Tony Maietta:
And so they do it. And it's a live show. A live show. And do you remember what they're introduced.

Brad Shreve:
As, Brad, I believe, as lesbians.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. They say, we'll be back with four lesbians on Wake Up, Miami. And they are horrified. And Blanche says, rose, Nylan, every man I know is watching this show, this live show. This live show about lesbian lovers of Miami. Very funny.

Brad Shreve:
And she should have been excited because there is a stereotype of straight men loving lesbians because they want to change them. And Blanche has seen it as the opportunity it was.

Tony Maietta:
Well, actually, at the end of the episode, she gets a date with a man who wants to change her because she's obviously never been with a real man. So it worked out for her. It worked out for her. Oh, I love so many episodes this year. Another one is the Case of the Libertine Bell, where they all go on this murder mystery weekend, and Dorothy solves the mystery, and Rose says, dorothy, that was a real tour to France. There's one called the Commitments where Dorothy falls for a Beatlemania performer who plays Paul in Beetlemania. It's so crazy and funny. I love them.

Tony Maietta:
I love them. But all good things must come to an end, apparently, because we're coming up to the Very, very last episode, the finale, a two part episode of Golden Girls which ended the series because Bea Arthur was tired, she wanted to go. You know, she actually threatened to leave the year before. And if you remember, Brad, there was an episode where she almost got married to Stan the year before. Do you remember that? And there was a guest star who was brought in. Did you ever. Did you ever see that episode, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, because I actually got confused and I was thinking the series actually ended with her marrying Stan, which really bothered me. So when I watched the finale, I realized I was wrong. So I do remember the episode where she almost married Stan, but I don't remember who the guest was.

Tony Maietta:
Well, let me tell you, it was a very special guest star and friend of the pod one, Debbie Reynolds.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, my God, how could I forget? Debbie.

Tony Maietta:
Get Debbie. Yeah, she played a character who was going to move into Dorothy's room and take over. But it didn't work out and Bea decided to do one more year. So that's why the series ends at seventh year. So the final episode of the series is entitled One Flew out of the Cuckoo's Nest. Part 1 and 2 is a two parter. Episodes 179 and 180 in the series written by Don Siegel, Jerry Perzegian, Mitchell Hurwitz, who later created Arrested Development, by the way.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I love Arrested Development.

Tony Maietta:
It was directed by Lex Pizaras and it featured guest star Leslie Nielsen.

Brad Shreve:
I had the time of my life last night. And even if he never calls again.

Tony Maietta:
At least we'll always have Don's Crab House. Ingrid Bergman had Paris. My pussycat has crabs. Oh, girls, would you look if Aunt Uncle Lucas has brought his favorite niece?

Tony Maietta:
Dorothy, I didn't mean to intrude without calling, but I didn't sleep last night for thinking about you.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, no intrusion. I was afraid that I'd never see you again.

Tony Maietta:
Never see me again? I'd buy a julep for the ghost of General Grant before I let that happen. Oh, I was hoping you'd say that. Dorothy. Dorothy, I know it sounds impetuous. I know we just met, but I'm at that stage in my life where I can't afford to waste time. Dorothy, I love you and I want to know. Will you? Will you?

Tony Maietta:
I think he's gonna ask her out again.

Tony Maietta:
Dorothy. Yes? Dorothy, will you marry me?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, Lucas.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yes.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no.

Tony Maietta:
Do you know. Do you want to give a brief synopsis of what happens in this last episode? Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah, it's Leslie Nielsen. Is the guest star. And he is big Daddy's son. Enough.

Tony Maietta:
Baby brother. Baby brother.

Brad Shreve:
Daddy's baby brother. So he's related to Blanche and he's coming into town and Blanche has a one night stand. And like, you know, he. Like she says, a one night stand can only happen one time, so she can't pass that up. And I like her thinking. And so she pawns him off onto Dorothy. And I love the scene of him and Dorothy on their blind date. Just both of them absolutely miserable because they're bored to tears and they're not connecting in any way, shape or form.

Brad Shreve:
But in the end, they fall in love.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, they do. And they marry.

Brad Shreve:
They are pretending that they're engaged to get even with Blanche for pushing them on each other. And during that process, they realize they love each other.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it's a really interesting twist to the episode. It's a really unusual, unique. I think it's one of the best final episodes of any sitcom. I really love it because, you know, the plot, the main plot, when Dorothy and Lucas pretend to be in love with each other and then actually fall in love with each other, was actually inspired by something that really happened. It was based on the real courtship of Paul Witt and Susan Harris and their partner, Tony Thomas. Tony Thomas, their partner in their company with Thomas Harris, not their partner.

Brad Shreve:
And I was like, oh, I not.

Tony Maietta:
That kind of partner. No. They were trying to fool Tony Thomas. And they were, because they always had this very combative, very kinetic relationship that there was obviously some kind of passion there. And they were trying to. They said, let's play a joke on him and pretend like we're really in love. And then they ended up really falling in love. So I love that.

Tony Maietta:
I love when real life kind of in creates these shows which are. Which are really wonderful. And what's interesting about this show is, you know, Lex ran into Jay Sandrich, friend of the pod, Jay Sandrich, who directed the pilot of Golden Girls and also directed most of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. And it was in a Mary Tyler Moore show tribute at the Museum of Broadcasting. And he said, since, you know, Jay, since you directed the pilot, I'm directing the final episode. Do you have any advice? Because, you know, the last show of the Mary Tyler Moore show, which we talked about on our podcast, was mythic, way back then even. Do you have any advice? And he asked him, and Jay asked him if they had a Tipperary scene in the Golden Girl script, which is basically, you know, producer speak for a director speak for a final sentimental scene. Where everybody says goodbye like Long Way to Tipperary.

Tony Maietta:
And Mary Tyler Moore and Lex said, yeah, they do. He said, just block it minimally. Don't rehearse it at all. Let the actors real emotions carry it through. And that's exactly what happened. Because this is a funny episode. It's very funny. Rose at first thinks that she's going to go move in with her daughter because the family is breaking up and.

Tony Maietta:
And Blanche is upset because she's going to be all by herself. And Sophia doesn't know if Lucas and Dorothy are going to want her ruining their marriage by moving in with them. And then they all decide they're all going to stay together, except Dorothy and Lucas are going to go away. So there's a goodbye scene, which is basically the Golden Girls Long Waited a Tipperary scene. And it's so moving and it's so touching when the four of them are all together to say goodbye to each other. And as you can imagine, because Bea Arthur was really leaving and the other three were going on to golden palace, the show that will not be named. There was a great deal of emotion all week. There was a great deal of emotion all week.

Tony Maietta:
And that emotion is so evident in that last scene. It's so moving and in my opinion is such a moving and touching and funny goodbye. What do you think?

Brad Shreve:
Let me give you my negative on the episode, which is somewhat minor because I really want to get into what I love about this episode. My negative is that I can't think of Leslie Nelson's character, but Lucas, Lucas, Lucas, Lucas. I wish Lucas. Because one thing I really loved on this show was that Rose had the relationship with Miles. I like that there was a long term relationship, even though it's kind of an on again, off thing thing. And I kind of wish there was more of that. I wish that Leslie Nelson had been brought in midway through this season. So it wasn't just this whirlwind thing at the very end.

Brad Shreve:
Just to warm us up in this kind of. I think their whole situation could have been dragged on and been funny. This was. That was the only thing that I saw as a traditional final episode thing in this episode. What I like about the rest of this episode, to me, it did not feel like a final episode.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
There were no clips.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
There was. It wasn't overly emotional. Yes. At the end when friends are saying goodbye, they get emotional, but it wasn't throughout. It just felt like this is happening in Dorothy's life and we're moving on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's. Yeah. There's no clips. Thank God.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. I hate clip episodes.

Tony Maietta:
You know, I think that as. As we talked about it with Mary Tyler Moore, Mary Tyler Moore really set the bar for. For final episodes. And the Golden Girls is right up there with it. I think it's one of the best final episodes of any sitcom because of the fact that it stands, as you just said, it stands on its own as its own episode. There's no flashbacks. There's nothing like that. It's very funny.

Tony Maietta:
There are very funny moments in it. There are very sentimental moments in it. And the final scene is just so touching when they're hugging each other and they're holding each other, and what happens is that Dorothy finally says goodbye and she goes out the door, and then she comes running right back in again, which I thought was wonderful the first time I saw it. And they say goodbye again, and she says, well, the first time she leaves, she goes, I love you always. And she leaves. She goes running back in, and they hug again, and she says, you're angels, all of you. And then she turns and walks out again. And then she comes running around from the lanai.

Tony Maietta:
She's in there hugging again. And then she says, you'll always be my sisters, always. Which is kind of the theme of the Golden Girls. And then she leaves. And they stand there and they wait, and people are kind of like, oh, where's she gonna come now? Where's she gonna come now? And then you realize she's not coming back. And that's the. That's the lump in the throat moment. That's the moment where they all come together and hold each other and you can see them really crying.

Tony Maietta:
You can see, you know, Betty White tearing up and Estelle Getty crying. It's so, so moving that it ends that way. But what I think is very funny is this, if you remember in the pilot, and we're gonna bring this full circle B's last line in the pilot, Dorothy's last line in the pilot episode is, no matter what happens, even if all of us get married, we'll all stay together. And look what happens at the end from Dorothy. That didn't hold true. That didn't hold true.

Brad Shreve:
Off to Atlanta.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. She's like, out of here.

Brad Shreve:
One thing that I really, really liked on this episode, it has to do with Sophia. Knowing that Sophia wound up on, I hate to say it, Golden Palace. We knew that she's gonna stay behind, but I couldn't remember the details of this episode other than Dorothy married. So the whole time I'M thinking, okay, Sophia talking about going with Lucas and Dorothy when they moved to Atlanta. And I'm like, how do they get out of that? And, yeah, Sophia ends up staying in Miami. What is gonna be the premise? And I was kind of skeptical. And when Sophia says that she needs to stay behind because Dorothy needs to move on, and she felt like she was part of the problem between Dorothy and Stanley, it seemed very believable.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you.

Brad Shreve:
And touching.

Tony Maietta:
No, you weren't. Yes, you were. I think I was in the way the first time. No, you weren't. Yes, you were.

Brad Shreve:
Some sitcoms, when they do things like that, they come up with the most ridiculous, quick toss up reasons as to why somebody would stay behind or why a character does something that you don't expect. This one was believable. It was a tender moment from Sophia.

Tony Maietta:
It was. It was. You know what I hate about this episode?

Brad Shreve:
What?

Tony Maietta:
Along with the rest of America, I hate Bea Arthur's wedding dress. It is horrible. And you know who else hated Bea Arthur's wedding dress? Bea Arthur hated her wedding dress. I never understood that she hated that dress she had on. In the episode I was in, she. She's Bea Arthur. You think she'd be like, I won't wear that. I know you wouldn't think so, but apparently, you know, she was a very shy woman in certain respects, and she hated that episode.

Tony Maietta:
That, that wedding dress she talked about all the time, how much she. With those weird kind of circular twirly things on her neckline. I was like, what is that? Is that paper? Are those little paper curls? What are those curls on her dress? It's. It's horrible. It's horrible.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I have a confession to make. One thing is, I'm always surprised how ugly wedding dresses are on television. Movies not as much, but frequently, but television almost always are hideous. I didn't notice because we said we're going to watch it but not go that deep into it. And I don't think I even looked at her dress.

Tony Maietta:
Well, be glad, because once you see that dress, you can't unsee it. God bless.

Brad Shreve:
Well, now you make me want to go back and look at it.

Tony Maietta:
So. Yeah. So Dorothy moves away and we check into the golden palace, which also changed network, so went to CBS from NBC because NBC is like, we don't want it. You know, and the funny thing about Golden Palace.

Brad Shreve:
Smart NBC.

Tony Maietta:
Well, the thing about golden palace is, is that there are some cute episodes of Golden Palace. But it's like we said last episode, our first episode. You need Dorothy, you need that grounding force. You can't, you can't take one of the vital pieces of this puzzle out and have a full picture. You need it. And so for me, the best episode of golden palace is the one where Dorothy came back and visited. There were. She did a two.

Tony Maietta:
It was a two part episode and she visited and it was like Golden Girls all over again. But alas, she left again. So. Golden Girls. Golden Girls. Golden palace, as I said, premiered on CBS the following year in 1992. It was actually renewed for a second season. But then just before CBS announced officially it's fall lineup, they pulled it and it was over.

Tony Maietta:
And then I think Estelle Getty went on to a year on Empty Nest. Right. Wasn't she like, she played Sophia on Empty Nest for a year?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, she became a regular on Empty Nest, which Empty Nest had been as. I, I loved it when it first started. It had been kind of falling apart at that point. And I think she made it even worse.

Tony Maietta:
She was, well, she was just like.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, let's toss the old lady in to be funny.

Tony Maietta:
Let's put her somewhere, please. She's a ratings getter. Let's put her.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it was so obvious. That's what was for. And so I really, I dislike that she was on there. One thing that really surprised me, if this is true, when it came to Golden Palace, I don't know what Stel Getty's feeling was on it, but I know Bea Arthur was not the least bit interested.

Tony Maietta:
No.

Brad Shreve:
And my understanding is that Rue McClenahan was reluctant, but Betty White embraced it.

Tony Maietta:
Emergency.

Brad Shreve:
And it really surprises me. I would have thought Betty White, having been on television so long, would have been the one that said it's time to put this to rest.

Tony Maietta:
Do you know how many TV shows Betty White did in her career? I think one of her, one of her autobiographies is called Here We Go Again because Betty White pretty much said yes to everything. She just wanted the job. She, I mean, after this, she did that show. She did another show before she did Hot in Cleveland. She was on. What's that drama show. She won an Emmy. The.

Tony Maietta:
The Law Show. Not, not LA Law, not the Practice, but the other one that was on cbs. I can't remember the name of it, it's not important. But anyway, she was, Please. She worked up until her death. So I mean, I think Betty White just wanted to work. She's like, I'm just gonna throw it at the wall and see if it sticks. And you know, considering two of the things that she threw on the wall were the marriage.

Tony Maietta:
Three of the things were the marriage, Heller Moore show, the Golden Girls and Hut in Cleveland, pretty damn good track record, not to mention going back to, you know, TV in the 50s and the 40s. So I think that was.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So. Yeah. So that's. Wow, Brad. I think that's wrapping up our happy birthday Golden Girls tribute. You know, when we get to this part of our episode, I usually. I usually bring us down and I. To talk about the sad, tragic ends to so many of these people.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, you're like a headline on the Inquirer.

Tony Maietta:
That's the historian in me. That's the TV film historian me. But for this episode, I'm not going to do that. I am a fan. I am going to be the fan because we all know that these four wonderful actresses are no longer with us on this earthly realm. We all know that. But I like to think, and I think everybody else likes to believe that the characters still are. They ain't dead.

Tony Maietta:
And I prefer to think of them that way. I prefer to think of them still alive and kicking and having wonderful adventures at 6151 Richmond street in Miami, eating cheesecake, telling St. Olaf stories, occasionally swatting each other with. In the head with newspapers and just having a fan tastic time. That's the way I feel about it, Brad.

Brad Shreve:
That's the way I feel about a lot of shows. Yes, I agree with you.

Tony Maietta:
Well, is there anything else you want to say about the Golden Girls or the podcast or anything else?

Brad Shreve:
As always, I want to thank all the new listeners for checking out our show and hope you enjoyed it. And we ask that you please subscribe so you don't miss notification when another episode comes out. Another episode, I should say, not episodes. Well, many episodes. And our longtime listeners, thank you very much as always for coming back each week and please rate and review our show. As we said, we've been getting some. And we've also been getting people reaching out to us and saying, hey, yeah, do, do some episodes of this, like giving us movie recommendations. I know there's one that Marie Maurice, he's my husband.

Brad Shreve:
I know there's one that Tony has said that we're gonna do. For sure.

Tony Maietta:
We are.

Brad Shreve:
Do you want to say to this we don't know when.

Tony Maietta:
If you say it, we got to do it. I'm just saying it right now. So you go ahead and say it. And now we got to do it. So say it.

Brad Shreve:
Valley of the Dolls.

Tony Maietta:
Neely o'. Hara. Yes. Finally. We're going to do some Valley of the Dolls. That's great. That's great, Brad. Thank you for saying that.

Tony Maietta:
Thank you, everybody, for your reviews, for your. For your follows. It means so much to us. Well, Brad, I guess that's all we have to say about the Golden Girls 40th birthday. Happy, happy birthday, ladies. I love you. Guess there's only one thing left to say. But I don't want to say it.

Tony Maietta:
So let's just say Miami is nice. So I'll say it twice.

Brad Shreve:
Nah, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Miami is nice.

Brad Shreve:
You didn't say your goodbye. Everybody threw me off.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, goodbye, everybody.