Tony Maietta:
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Tony Maietta:
Brad, before we start recording, I have one thing to say.

Brad Shreve:
Okay?

Tony Maietta:
I know how much you want me to and I know how much our listener wants me to, but I am not going to yodel. I'm not. I am not going to yodel. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not, not, not, not, not going to do it. I'm not going to.

Brad Shreve:
That. That was actually impressive. I wasn't expecting that.

Tony Maietta:
Sister Rose is going to kick them and the little ole who.

Brad Shreve:
When you told me you were going to start out with something, I had no idea it was going to be a yodel.

Tony Maietta:
I've been yodeling all day. And Michael's like, are you doing Sound of Music? No. Close, but no. Hey, everybody. Well, we are back for, I think, what is really our last episode in our summer series. I'm so sad about that. But I wanted to do one final summer movie because like it or not, we're winding down the summer, you know, which is really sad for me, especially here in la. Cause it's been such a lousy summer.

Tony Maietta:
But this is it. This is our last summer movie.

Brad Shreve:
So we decide for the next three months it's gonna be really dark, kind of depressing films. Schindler's List 7.

Tony Maietta:
In my opinion, this movie is just fun, fun, fun. There are no hidden messages about greed or death. There's no lessons about misogyny. It's just fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun for me. Now, I don't know about Brad, but I don't know what Brad's opinion is going to be. But to me, this is big business. We should say that from Touchstone in 1988. Starring who? Who's it starring, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Two ladies that are pretty well known. And I love and adore both of them. Lily Tomlin and Bette Midler. And some would say Bette Midler middle Lily Tomlin. Which I think at the time this movie was made, I'm almost certain. Yeah, she got top billing for it.

Tony Maietta:
Well, they. No, actually it was. The billing was Bette Midler and Lily Tomlin and Lily Tomlin and Bette Midler. I have the. I know you can't see, but I have the poster right behind me. And it's because they play twins. Twins who are separated at birth. Now before we go any further about this too, I just want to.

Tony Maietta:
I want to relate a little personal thing about me with this movie. Because when I was thinking about big business because this was a last minute substitute, we were going to do something else and I thought, no, let's let's do a fun one. One last fun summer movie. But, you know, even I have my doubts that this is kind of like a little sliver of a movie. You know, it's not Grand Hotel. It's not even. It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. It's not this big epic.

Tony Maietta:
It's a little fun little bubble of a movie from 1988. And I. And I thought, why should we really do that? And then I thought about my experiences with this movie and how it made me feel the first time I saw it, and, you know, it. And the reason I want to talk about this is because it got me thinking about movies in general, in a bigger picture. So just indulge me, if you will, Brad and Listener, about this, because I first saw this movie in the theater when it came out. Now we all know how old I am. If you don't, you can look me up on IMDb ruined it years ago. So, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So there's no can't. There's no subterfuge there. So I saw this. I had just graduated from college, and it was the summer between college and the beginning of your real life, you know, And I don't know about you, but for me, that was a pretty weird summer because, you know, you're just done with this very long period of being at Cocoon, and now suddenly you're dealing with life. And I was supposed to go to grad school. I really didn't want to go to grad school. I wanted to start my life. And I was living alone in Pittsburgh, and everyone had left from the college season had left, so I was basically in the city alone in the summer.

Tony Maietta:
And it was like a somewhat depressing time, a time of reflection. And so I didn't know what to do one night. So I went to the movie theater and I saw this movie. And it was. To me, it was just so much fun. I mean, for 90 minutes, I was in a state of pure joy. And I guess that's what I want to say about this movie and the moviegoing experience as a whole. You know, you're being taken out of your life, whatever you're dealing with in your life at the present moment, and you're being transported to a.

Tony Maietta:
A different place, a different time. You know, you're usually just, you know, forgetting your troubles. Come on, get happy kind of a thing. And I actually went back four times to see this movie in the theater, and every time, it had on me. Yeah, I mean, that. That summer was my big business summer. And another thing it did. It was also my portal to this phenomenon that we know as Bette Midler.

Tony Maietta:
Now, obviously, I knew Bette Midler. I knew of the Rose. Of course, I hadn't really seen Outrageous Fortune yet or Ruthless People because I was in college. I was doing other things. But it brought me into this whole. The world of the divine Ms. M. And I went to this whole divine Ms.

Tony Maietta:
M spiral, and. Which I'm still kind of in to this day because I love and adore Bette Midler. So I guess that's what I want to say about this movie, is that you could consider it a little insignificant movie. But to me, it's not. And I don't consider that. That. That's my spiel.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I kind of think of it as. In terms of. For me, I'm thinking of Funny Farm, Roxan movies that didn't rock the world, but were still fun to see, at least as an individual. Maybe. Maybe not for other individuals. Funny Farm. Funny thing about that is I went to the movie and absolutely hated it. I walked out of there just gritting my teeth, I thought it was so bad.

Brad Shreve:
And then I met a buddy of mine that night at a bar, and he saw it, and we started talking about it, and we're laughing so hard our stomachs hurt.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
So I went back and watched it. I thought, okay, this is better than I thought. It was not a great movie. No. But it was fine. And I think that's what you're talking about with this movie.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes. It just. It gives me joy. It's pure, undiluted, silly joy. And I think that's perfect for our last summer movie, you know, and it's funny because I meet people who have the same response to this movie, so I don't think it's so insignificant. I am constantly hearing quipping with people lines from this movie. You know, oh, God, it's me with a bad haircut, which is one of my favorite lines ever. Or Lily Tomlin.

Tony Maietta:
When they're first in the Plaza Suite and they have the sink up there. And Bette Midler goes, it's what the French call. And Lily goes, well, the French must be taller than me. And I, you know, got my Tuesday panties on, too. So, I mean, it's these lines, which I think you probably won't be surprised that many of these lines come right from Lily Tomlin and her partner, Jane Wagner. I mean, my God, as a frog's ass. Watertight. I mean, what do you think? Of course.

Tony Maietta:
So this movie has a lot of Fans. I am definitely one of them. As I said, I have their. One of the. I have one of the original posters in my bedroom. But, you know, before we turn our snooty New York asses or our snooty Southern California asses up at this movie, I want to say it has some pretty interesting lineage. You know, this humble farce is basically a retelling of Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors in which two sets of identical twins are separated as infants, which in itself is based on a play by Plotus, a Roman playwright. So, I mean, there's some.

Tony Maietta:
This thing has some roots. It's not just a piece of fluff. There's definitely some definite roots to this comedy.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, I agree 100%. I think the premise was. It's just a lot of fun. I love the beginning with the. The nurse mixing up the kids. And I think the. The country girls against the Red city girls was just a great idea. It was a lot of fun in that sense.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it's like the town mouse.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
One of Aesop's fables. Aesop. Aesop. Aesop. Anyway, you say Aesop, I'll say Aesop. Prince and the Pauper. Another one. So, I mean, it's.

Tony Maietta:
It's all these things are referenced. The theme of nature versus nurture also. So when you look at it, this little comedy, you can really read a lot into this Lily silly. This little silly comedy from 1988. But one of the things I love most about this movie is it gives me a real taste of New York in the late 80s, which compared to the Disneyland it is now, is really startling. I always think about kids today who go to New York now, you know, when they're starting out, when they're 22, 23, even younger. And I think about the first time I went to New York out of college, and it was just like this, because it was 1988, 1989. I mean, you know, Times Square, you didn't want to go to Times Square ever, let alone at night.

Tony Maietta:
It was even tricky to walk unless.

Brad Shreve:
You wanted drugs or a prostitute.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, exactly. Or go see a porn. You know, that was when you went to Times Square. I mean, even walking in the theater district was tough and tricky. You had to be very careful in the theater district, which now, you know, it's Disneyland, basically. So do we want to give a little background about what the. What this film's about, what the plot of this film is?

Brad Shreve:
Sure. I'm. We kind of gave it away. This is A rich couple are driving through a Rural part of the country. And she goes into labor. So they go to this little country doctor and she's giving birth.

Tony Maietta:
Do you love Deborah Rush as. As the mother? As Binky. Do you know Deborah Rush?

Brad Shreve:
No, I didn't know her.

Tony Maietta:
People think she was Catherine o'. Hara. People get her confused with Catherine o'. Hara. She's not. She's. She's a wonderful comic actress in her own right. She's.

Tony Maietta:
She's a fantastic comic actor. I think it.

Brad Shreve:
Because I kept looking at her, trying to figure out who it was, and I think I was thinking of Catherine o'. Hara because I'm like, who is that? Who is that? So anyway, they. They have to go to this country doctor at the same time. This country couple, the wife comes in and she's in labor. And lo and behold, both women have twins. And it's kind of chaotic. And the nurse. Quick and easy, the nurse puts.

Brad Shreve:
She switches them. She puts one twin with the wrong twin and the other twin with the other twin. So instead of two old.

Tony Maietta:
Older nurse. Yeah, so older nurse kind of scatter.

Brad Shreve:
Scatter brain. There's a lot going on. So you end up with. Instead of two Bet Midlers and two Lily Tomlins, you end up with two Lily and Betts. And the rich couple go back to New York where the girls, I guess, take over the business and the other two stay in. What's the name of that town? Something Holler, I think.

Tony Maietta:
Jupiter Holler.

Brad Shreve:
Jupiter Holler, yes.

Tony Maietta:
Well, hello Jupiter Hollow. We know you're doing fine. Okay. I'm not gonna sing anymore.

Brad Shreve:
I promise. If you didn't take a guess. Eventually they all meet up and comedy.

Tony Maietta:
Ensues at the Plaza Hotel. Well, Sadie, Bette Midler's Gears is staying.

Brad Shreve:
At the Plaza Hotel.

Tony Maietta:
It's so wonderful because, yes, one twin is completely a fish out of water in the other one's environment. And yes, they all meet together because the rich twins, the Sheldon twins, run a company called Moramax. Not Miramax, Moramax. More Max Mormax. And they are in the process of taking over the factory that is in Jupiter Hollow. And they're going to do strip mining and just, you know, rape the land, basically. So the country twins come to New York City to kick some snooty New York City ass and stop this. This from happening.

Tony Maietta:
And they come up against the city twins who are running the company. And that's how madness ensues. And of course, there's all kinds of mixed identities. It is like. It's a comedy of errors.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly.

Tony Maietta:
And that's that's basically what it is. And it's a hell of a lot of fun. I think. I want to say that, you know, in my opinion, I think Bette Midler and Lily Tomlin are like a dream team. I think it's so funny. They never really. This is the only time they've ever really worked together and they've ever worked together in a film so far. I mean, they're both alive.

Tony Maietta:
God bless Lily Tomlins. 85, something like that. That's a little bit younger at this time. Lily was 48 and Bet was 43. And I think what's so wonderful about them as, as a team is that they're totally different in the way they work. BET is performative. You know, the big eyes, the takes. My favorite entrance in movie history is when that elevator door opens and Bette Midler's head comes up and her eyes open wide and then they close and she exits the elevator.

Tony Maietta:
She's so broad. She's so big. But that's what's so wonderful about Bette. Everything is big and broad and overdone, but so well done that you don't think it. You don't. It doesn't occur to you that, oh, that's too much because it's the style. And Lily is character, you know, Lily. For people who don't know Lily Tomlin, Lily Tomlin is a brilliant, brilliant character comedienne.

Tony Maietta:
I've seen two of her one woman shows. One of them, the Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe, is a brilliant one woman show in which she plays all different kinds of characters. But when you think about all these great touches that Lily puts in her characters of Rose, she's got the shoulder pads that keep falling, splitting the gum in two when they're in the limo with Fabrio, the snake bracelet, pulling up her culottes. Don't you love those culottes that Rose wears? The country Rose wears. It's a. So they, they blend really well together, though. I mean, that's. That's the thing.

Tony Maietta:
Their different styles really merge very well.

Brad Shreve:
What do you think they did? I have a challenge with Lily in this. First of all, I want to talk about Bette the Bet in this. Remind me a lot of Bette in Ruthless People, which is. Is a movie I absolutely love. I don't think the general world loves it, but I love it.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, I love Ruthless.

Brad Shreve:
She's. She's a totally different character, but again, she's big and bold. I think it's hard for BET not To be.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes. Jim Abrams said, who directed this film, said, you have to let BET be big. And he also directed Ruthless People with the Zucker Brothers, you have to let BET be big. That's what the people want to see.

Brad Shreve:
And I would agree with that. This one's going to hurt me because I love and adore Lily Tomlin. Just love her. I thought she played the rich sister. Well, awkward. Didn't really want to be there. Her portrayal of the suspicious country sister did not land for me. It felt forced, almost like she hadn't quite figured out what her character was supposed to be.

Brad Shreve:
Beyond the accent and the attitude, I just. Of all the characters, she's the one that I just didn't feel was right. I don't think it was played well.

Tony Maietta:
No, I agree with you. You know, it's funny because I was thinking, okay, when it comes to the sisters, Rose Ratliff, probably you're right. That's the Country Rose is probably the weakest of all the four. And I think that Sadie Ratliff. I'm sorry, this is very confusing. Rose Sheldon, the City Lily Tomlin is probably the most rich character, the richest characters. Bette is doing Bette. Bette is doing the divine Miss M.

Tony Maietta:
When she's Sadie, City Sadie, she's doing divine Miss M. And she's brilliant. Nobody does the divine Miss M better than Bette Midler. And then she's very funny, I think, as the Country Bet as well. Let's just call them the Country Bet and the Lily Bet.

Brad Shreve:
Thank you. I guess they use their last names, but Country Bet, Lily Bet is better.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, better. I think that even though they're both named Rose and Sadie, anyway, I think that it's a fine characterization. There's not much to it. So I really think that each. Each actress has their specific strong characterization. And I absolutely agree with you. I'm very moved by Lily as the City Tomlin. I find her very.

Tony Maietta:
The fish out of water. I find her very moving in this. I think her chemistry with Fred Ward is phenomenal. Fred Ward plays Roon, Country Lily's intended boyfriend, you know, her fiance, but he falls for City Tomlin even though he doesn't know they're different people. So, yeah, I agree with you completely.

Brad Shreve:
How could you not have chemistry with Fred Ward? He looked great in this film.

Tony Maietta:
I remember. Oh, no. Fred Ward is great. Fred Ward is great. Fred Ward plays Rune Dimmick, who's. What is his. What is his big claim to fame? Rune Dimmock's big claim to fame?

Brad Shreve:
Brad oh, I'm. I'm drawing a blank.

Tony Maietta:
He's a putt Putt golf.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, my God. Yes. And it was a big event.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Trying to remember who sponsored it was funny. It made me laugh.

Tony Maietta:
And the. The putt putt golf course he was at for the big tournament was clearly in Southern California, because it was called Palms. But that. Let's not try to be sensible about where things are in this. So Jupiter Hollows is somewhere allegedly in, like, West Virginia. And having just been in West Virginia, where strip mining is a real thing. That's very true. And of course, the rest of the film takes place at the Plaza Hotel.

Tony Maietta:
Another reason I love this movie is it gives you a real dose of the Plaza in its heyday when it was still a hotel. Now there's parts of it that are still a hotel, but mostly it's Residences. But what I love about it is you get to see that. You get to have that feeling of it. Even though much of this movie was not shot at the Plaza Hotel, it was shot on a set at Walt Disney Studios in Burbank. Because the Plaza was like, no, you can't shoot here. The exteriors are obviously the Plaza and the Palm Court and things like that are the Plaza, but the rest of it was a set in Burbank. But I still get real Plaza Hotel vibes, which I love.

Tony Maietta:
I love that. Wonderful. So this film was directed by Jim Abrams, who I think Brad, as you know, is responsible for a film that we kind of talked about not too long ago, kind of in reference to another film. He and Jerry and David Zucker are the geniuses behind Airplane and the Naked Gun and Hotshots. And this was his first solo.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, this is when they all branched out on their own.

Tony Maietta:
They all branched out on their own, he said, because Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was running Disney, said, you got to do something on your own, buddy. You just got it, because otherwise you're never gonna.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And I do want to emphasize that as far as is understood, unless something went. Happened behind the scenes that nobody knows about, the three of them splitting up and going their separate ways was not a negative thing. They just all were ready to do their own thing.

Tony Maietta:
Well, they've done some amazing films, but, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
It was time for them to step out on their own. And, you know, Abrams admitted to being basically terrified when he realized he was gonna have to do this.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, I would think so.

Tony Maietta:
She want me to give a little bit of backstory of this movie, because even big business has a backstory of.

Brad Shreve:
Course, that is why the historian is here.

Tony Maietta:
That is why the historians here and to keep the regular guy in line. So I've read. I don't know if you've read this, but I have read that this film was originally written for Barbra Streisand and Goldie Hawn.

Brad Shreve:
Now. Yes, I did.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, I'm sorry.

Brad Shreve:
Goldie could be. All right. I can't see Streisand.

Tony Maietta:
Can you see Barbra Streisand milking a cow? I mean, come on. No, no, this is. I've only seen that once. I have never seen that anywhere else. And I gotta tell you, I am sure there are many films that were happening in the 70s, in the 80s, that people were saying, oh, I'm writing this for Barbara, I'm writing this for Goldie. They have no knowledge of it, I guarantee you. Because, you know, in my lifelong education, my lifelong study of Barb, Barbra Streisand's life, I have never ever seen a reference to this film. Big Business Klute.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. She admits she turned down Clute. She admits she turned down Cabaret. I never saw nothing about Big Business. I'll say right now, there's truth to it.

Brad Shreve:
And she did look at the script. Barbara would definitely have put it down and said, no, thanks.

Tony Maietta:
Well, the script was different. Plus at this time in her career, I mean, this was right after she had just filmed Nuts. Yentl was over. She just filmed Nuts. She was really beginning her decades long quest to make the Normal Heart at this point. So I don't think she would be tempted. I just don't believe it. I'm sorry, I don't.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me. And also because we forget that at this point Bette Midler was Miss Disney. I mean, come on. That. Remember this was after down in Beverly Hills brought her back after the horror of Jinxed. And then she did Ruthless People, which was even bigger. Outrageous Fortune bigger. So Bette was hot, hot, hot.

Tony Maietta:
And she. Those were all Touchstone films. Touchstone is the adult division, if you will, of Disney. And Bette Midler was Miss Disney at this time. So she had a very fruitful relationship. She had a three picture deal, this one. And then she did Beaches, which was a huge hit and she did Stella. And so I really have a hard time believing that original casting.

Tony Maietta:
But maybe, maybe I just think that because Abrams had worked with BET on Ruthless People right before this, it makes so much more sense that this film was designed for bet. Now I also read and in fact Jim Abrams Said that for the Lily part, they actually approached Candace Bergen. Did you hear. Ever hear that?

Brad Shreve:
No. No.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So I. I go back and forth to Candice Bergen. Sometimes I think she's really good. Sometimes I think Candace. But I think that he had seen Lily in Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe, which she was doing sporadically at this point. And like many people, he was just blown away by this incredible talent of Lily Tomlin. And he's like, no, we gotta get Lily.

Tony Maietta:
So it brought him together. Brought them together. The first script that Abrams got, he said was a little heavy. It was by a writer named Leslie Dixon, who had written Outrageous Fortune. So there's another Bette Midler connection. But he said he really wanted to do this film. And so basically the eventual script was credited to Mark Rubell and Dory Pearson with, as I said before, a hell of a lot of doctoring by Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner. Because you're just not going to.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, who else is going to come with. Who else is going to come up with. Have you got your brains and your balls in your briefcase? Have you got both your brains and your balls in your briefcase? You know, is a frog's ass watertight, like I said before? So that's the late Tomlin. And he discussed. When he was working with BET on Ruthless People, he said he realized that you have to let Bette be as big as I said before, as big as she's gonna be, because that's what people want. And so it was. This was a lesson to him, as he admitted it. It was a lesson to him to direct this film because he was really kind of a.

Tony Maietta:
He was. His first time solo directing, I think did a great job. I think he did a really great job.

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah, certainly for the first time. I agree.

Tony Maietta:
So this, I think what's also important to point out. I want two things, but before I go there, I want to talk about the rest of this cast because we have some really great people in this cast. We just talked about Fred Ward. For people who don't know Fred Ward, he was in the Right Stuff. Henry and June Silkwood. He's usually a dramatic actor, but he's wonderfully funny in this and wonderfully sexy in this film. Edward Herman. Brad the Return.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
The friend of the pod. Edward Herman, who we just talked about in St. Elsewhere. Edward Herman plays Graham Shelbourn, who is the flunky of the. Of the city, Lily. And that pretty much, you know, he. He is. He's wonderful in this.

Tony Maietta:
I love Him. He's just. There's something about him which is so much fun. He and the actor Daniel Jarrell. Daniel Darrell plays Chuck. He's a British actor and he's in Chariots of Fire. He was in 84 Charing Crossroad. They're a couple.

Tony Maietta:
We have a little gay thing here, which I don't think is overplayed. I think it's played. Yeah, it's a little stereotypical, but especially when they meet Fred Ward.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, that was great. And that. Actually, I'm an idiot. That was the first time I realized they were a gay couple.

Tony Maietta:
Really.

Brad Shreve:
Probably if I went back, it would be so damn obvious. But I did not catch it.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't when Bette caught them guzzling Dom Perignon, my expense account when they were in the restaurant. I thought it was very funny. Yes. They play. And they're, of course, enamored with Ruhn. And they are tasked by Rose, Bette Midler, City, Rose City, Bet. To find these Ratliff people who are coming up from Jupiter Hollow to cause a problem at the stockholders meeting. And that's when they run into Ruhn.

Tony Maietta:
They think he's are Ratliff. He think. They think he's a Ratliff. So they. He doesn't have any where to stay, so he sleeps in their room at the Plaza with them. Which, of course causes all kinds of heart palpitations for those two.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, especially the little one.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes. We also have Michelle Placido. Placido. Michelle Placido. Michelle Placido. I apologize if I'm. If I'm mauling that. He plays Fabio Alberici.

Tony Maietta:
Falio Alberici. He plays Eurotrash, as BET calls it. First time I've heard the term. Yes, Eurotrash. When BET meets him in the elevator. Do you know that role was originally offered to Julio Iglesias?

Brad Shreve:
No, but that doesn't surprise me. He was very Julio Iglesias.

Tony Maietta:
Like he was. He was. Fabio is one of the people that Moramax is going to be merging with to strip mine Jupiter Hollow. So he's also a villain. And he falls in love with City Bat at the end of the movie. And then we also have the Gross twins. They're not twins, but the Gross siblings. Michael Gross from Family Ties.

Tony Maietta:
I couldn't think of it. And. And Mary Gross from Saturday Night Live. Isn't that fun to see them together even though they have no interactions?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. You know, let me say this about Michael Gross, okay? He himself did fine. Yeah, he worked with what he was given, but it wasn't much. So I can't fault his performance. But I couldn't figure out why he was there. I didn't connect with his character at all. And I'm still not sure why he was even in the movie. And I can't for the life of me remember even what he did.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he has to. Each twin has to have a paramour. He has to have a, you know, a romantic interest. He's the romantic interest of City Lily Tomlin. And she ends up, of course, with Ruhn at the end because. So they all switch partners. If you notice, they each have a significant other in. In their lives, and they all switch them up at the end of the movie.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, but I just didn't find him interesting in any way like the others. And it almost makes you wonder if he had scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor because it felt like there were missing chunks of development about his character. Now, granted, none of these were really deep, but to me, he was a cardboard cutout. And I like Michael.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I mean, because the point of this movie is Bet and Lily. The point of this movie is watching Bet and Lily play identical twins who. Who look nothing alike. You know what I mean? It doesn't occur to them as they're growing up, you don't look anything like me. You've got red hair and you're kind of short, and I'm tall and lanky, but, you know, that's. You have to suspend your disbelief. Abrams said that. He said if you set the rules early enough, audiences will buy into it.

Tony Maietta:
They will buy the fact that these twins. Air quotes. Don't look anything alike.

Brad Shreve:
Well, they never said if they were identical twins or fraternal twins.

Tony Maietta:
That's true. That's very true.

Brad Shreve:
That's true. And you talked about. This was about the two ladies. Oddly enough, I found myself more engaged with the supporting character.

Tony Maietta:
You did? Tell me.

Brad Shreve:
Well, tell me. To me, they felt better written, they felt better acted. To me, they were all more fun to watch than the two leads. And I adore the two leads, really. So don't get me wrong there. To me, they should have been the heart of the film. And part of the reason is it was over the top. But it's not in a good way.

Brad Shreve:
Not in a good, campy way. It's like the filmmakers were trying to do.

Tony Maietta:
You don't think bad is camp a.

Brad Shreve:
Screwball comedy without fully understanding what makes the style work? Yes, it was campy, but like I said, not in a good way.

Tony Maietta:
This is how we dress for work. You look like a blood clot. You don't think Bets Campy in this? I mean, come on.

Brad Shreve:
Well, bad is, but. But I'm just saying I really liked the secondary characters, which is pretty unusual.

Tony Maietta:
Give me some examples of the secondary characters that you. Because I'm thinking.

Brad Shreve:
I liked Rune a lot.

Tony Maietta:
I'll give you that. Obviously Herman and. And you like the gay couple.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, I like those two. I like the guy that worked the front desk, even though he had a very small part.

Tony Maietta:
He's very funny. He's in a lot of Zucker Abrams movies.

Brad Shreve:
I enjoyed all of them more when they came on the screen, except Michael Gross, who put me to sleep when he was on. I like the beginning with the parents and the labor scene. I thought that was so beautifully done. Granted, it was a different tone than the rest of the movie, but I like that well acted and I expected a change of tone and. Of course. And it was actually very silly and very funny. That was really a campy, over the top and it worked. The rest.

Brad Shreve:
Okay.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. Well, that's a take. That's a take. I happen to like the two leads the best. I mean, I love the supporting cast in this. I think when you have an actor the stature of Edward Herman playing this silly Graham, you know, this kind of flip, flop, flippity jibbit, fly by, flighty Graham character. And then you have Chuck, you know, this actor. The guy who played the actor who played Chuck was actually in an episode of Sex and the City the first season in which he plays a real.

Tony Maietta:
A real prick. A real. A reprehensible character who's a friend of Biggs and totally different. I mean, these are some. These are some heavy hitters, you know, this is true, Michelle.

Brad Shreve:
And seeing Edward Herman in this role after seeing him in St. Elsewhere was. Was surreal.

Tony Maietta:
That's what you do, though. It was great cast.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it was great cast.

Tony Maietta:
Dramatic actors who can handle it. Because comedy is, you know, dying is easy. Comedy is hard. As we said in Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World, you want people who have the chops to do this. Fabio Alberici, Michelle Placido. And I'm sorry if I'm mauling his name. He was in a. He was very.

Tony Maietta:
He's an Italian TV and film actor. He did a film called Ernesto right before this. It's very famous. It's a gay film. It has you probably. If you know anything about it, you know it from the COVID because it's basically him with his arms around this person. This man and all you see is the man's bare ass. I mean, it's really out there.

Tony Maietta:
I was. I remember when I first, you know, when I first started working at Video west, seeing that film cover, I was like, holy shit.

Brad Shreve:
I gotta.

Tony Maietta:
I gotta watch me Ernesto. I gotta watch that. I think what's important too, to point out about this movie other than the fact that as Abrams said, Abrams does a lot of big wide shots. He said you have to do that because when you have actors, that is Bette Midler, who are being so big you can't come in for close ups. You have to frame it like it's on a stage. And much of this film is framed on a stage. It's also framed like it's on a stage because of the special effects. A very important thing about Big business is it was one of the very first films to use cgi.

Tony Maietta:
I think that who Framed Roger Rabbit was the first. I might be wrong about that. I didn't have time to research that. I apologize if I am. But I know the big business was very, very, very, very early in that. And the way they do it now with our 2025 eyes, we can kind of see it. You can kind of see where they might have. You know, because at a certain point, you know, the PS de resistance of this film is.

Tony Maietta:
Is when the twins run into each other. It's the best scene in the whole movie because they all go to the ladies room. Do you want to set the scene for that?

Brad Shreve:
Brad, I have something to say about the CGI in this film.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm just trying to. I'm trying to get your.

Tony Maietta:
Remember, it's 1988 and brand new.

Brad Shreve:
I know. Actually I was really impressed because knowing that it was 1988, I was expecting to look terrible. And I was watching closely for that reason and I was like, wow, they did a damn good job.

Tony Maietta:
Fantastic job. The split screens. I mean, Hollywood had been doing split screens for years. So that wasn't that difficult.

Brad Shreve:
It's a lot better than the ones they did in the Bewitch.

Tony Maietta:
Well, television, Disney budgeted film. So let's just remember that what is fascinating about those split screens is when they cross, you know, Lily will go in a door and close the door and then Lily, the other Lily will come out of the other door and then Bette will cross in front of her. I mean, it's that. That's what's interesting. It's not the Patty Duke show with Patty on one side and Patty on the other and like you know, the line between them, they cross over each other, which is really impressive when that happens. That happens a lot in this movie. The bathroom scene, which is the final scene where all the twins meet each other and everybody figures out what's going on. So they're going to have a stockholders meeting for more Max when they decide what if they're going to sell the factory at Jupiter Hollow.

Tony Maietta:
That's why Country Bet and Country Lily came to New York to stop this sale from happening. And they all end up in the ladies room. And for reasons which are too complicated to go into at this moment, City Bet and Country Bet are wearing the exact same outfit because it gets sold in the hotel store, which I thought was so great. I love that dress, too.

Brad Shreve:
It's fantastic. So we get. We get a Lucy Harpo moment.

Tony Maietta:
We do. We do. Because the. Because they all go into stalls in the ladies room at the Plaza Hotel. And bet. City Bet. I'm not sure which one comes out first. City Better.

Tony Maietta:
Country Bet. But one of them comes out of the bathroom stall, and then seconds later, the other one comes out of the bathroom stall. And there's a wall between them with mirrors. So they walk past the wall, and then they walk past what they assume is a mirror, but it's not. It's an opening. So it doesn't occur to them. But then they stop and they look back and Bette does this whole wonderful. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy Harpo Marx thing where she's making faces and she's doing her Bette Midler shtick. She's doing a shimmy. She's doing the things with her hands where she's doing a little time step. It's so funny. And then she finally reaches out and grabs the nose of the twin and they scream and they realize, this ain't no mirror. This is a real person. And then the other two twins come, lilies come running out of their stalls, and. And they all start screaming.

Tony Maietta:
And that's. This is what's genius. They all start circling around each other. And it looks really great. I mean, it's.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
If you look really closely, you can kind of see it, but don't look closely. You know, I'm also watching it on a remastered dvd. If I was watching it in the movie theater, I wouldn't notice it. It's wonderful. The technical expertise that made that scene happen is fabulous.

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah, it's. You know, if Star wars was made today, people would laugh at it. Well, but it was incredible at its time. I mean, you got to put that in Perspective. If that was made today, I would have been impressed.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I'm still blown away by it. In my 2025 eyes, I'm blown away when I see these special effects. I'm blown away by the fact they were able to achieve this and make it look so seamless and believable. I mean, it really is believable. So they realize. The twins realize that they're mismatched, and they go to stop the merger from happening or the company from buying Jupiter Hollow Factory. But they realize they can't have the one who wants to sell it, the evil one City BET doesn't want, obviously. So they have to lock her in a closet.

Tony Maietta:
And so Country BET has to pretend to be City bet. City bet. Yeah, that's right. City bet. To stop the sale. Because this whole time, Citibet has been telling them, the shareholders, they're gonna. They need to. They need to buy this.

Tony Maietta:
This factory. So they've got to change their minds. And she doesn't know what to do. So what does she do, Brad, that allows her to pretend to be City bet?

Brad Shreve:
Do you remember you're asking me these questions, and I'm drawing blank.

Tony Maietta:
She channels.

Brad Shreve:
I did see this, folks.

Tony Maietta:
She channels Joan Collins because. Oh, God, yes, Country BET is obsessed with Dynasty. And she was just watching the scene where Joan Collins was in front of the board of directors, and she says, if you don't. If you don't vote the way I want you to, I'm going to fire you and replace you with a board who will vote the way. So that's basically what Bette does.

Brad Shreve:
Can't believe I forgot that that that's who she was channeling, because. Do you want to know what I was thinking about the whole time she was trying to copy Joan Collins?

Tony Maietta:
What? What were you trying.

Brad Shreve:
When Joan Collins was kind of making fun of her Persona and was sucking down a chili dog on Will and Grace? Because it kind of. Yes, it's definitely country bet.

Tony Maietta:
No, it did. It did. It did. But she channels Alexis. She channels Alexis from Dynasty, Joan Collins from Dynasty. And she says, and if you don't vote the way I tell you to, I'm gonna fire y' all and replace you with a board who will. And of course, at the end of the day, it's taken care of. There's a beautiful, moving speech from Country Lily or from City Lily, and it saves the day.

Tony Maietta:
Of course, they don't sell, everybody's happy, and they all leave the plaza at the end. And the movie actually first ended that way with Each of them coming up with now their new paramour, the new person they're really suited for. You know, City Lily goes off with Ruhn. Country Bet goes off with City Bets ex husband because they have a connection. And they all pair off together. And it originally ended that way, but Jeffrey Katzenberg said to Abrams, you need a button. You need something to end this. You need a button.

Tony Maietta:
A button is something which emphasizes a point. You know, you need a button at the end of this movie. And throughout this movie, there has been an indigent, unhoused, whatever word you want to use, man wandering around the plaza. He's. He's messy, he's filthy. And at one point in the movie, he says, there's two of everybody in there. Or something to that effect. If you stand here long enough, you see yourself come out.

Tony Maietta:
Something like that.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. I want to talk about him because he. And another character I would have liked to have seen more of, the limo driver.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, he was great.

Brad Shreve:
Because the limo driver. I didn't want to see the limo driver be. I can't think of his name. The. The Harlan driver on Arthur. I didn't want to see him that much, but I felt like he obviously had watched these women grow up because it's hint that hinted that he's been with them for years.

Tony Maietta:
He's a young character in the. In the 40s episode. It's. He's the young Harlan is in the 40s episode. And then.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he could have been a little more fun. Now, they did have the scene where he yelled at them. Answered the damn phone.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Which at first I thought that that's not right, because Midler, her rich character, would never have tolerated that. And then I thought, well, wait a minute, though. Because they grew up with him. And I think that should have been emphasized because that really took me. I'm like, no, she would never. He would never have done that because he. It would. Grant.

Brad Shreve:
It was country middler. But if it had been Rich Midler, I thought, oh, no, she would. Told him he's history. But then I remembered, no, he was. He's been a part of their lives. And that would have connected a little more. And I think he could have been more a part of what was going on. Grant, I know it had a lot of characters, so it would have really made this cast huge.

Brad Shreve:
But I would like to seen that the other one is the indigent guy. I think he could have been more. Still been the side character that he is, but he could have been Watching more, we could have seen his face more, like seeing people coming out and just the shock. And it was almost like he was placed in to say these couple of lines here and there, almost like Vera and Alice.

Tony Maietta:
I wouldn't say that. Well, no, I'm kidding. What I was going to say is, is that when the movie ended, it ended with just the four couples going off together. And that was the end of the movie. But. But Katzenberg said, you need a button here. You need something to really lift this off at the end. So they took that character of the homeless man, of the engine man, who kept saying, there's two of everybody in there.

Tony Maietta:
And they brought a twin in for him.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
So they all went back to New York, back to the plaza, and shot that one scene at the end where the homeless man's clean, you know, businessman, twin comes out of the plaza and they see each other, and that's where the movie ends.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And that was a. That was a nice touch.

Tony Maietta:
That is a nice. That was cute. Katzenberg was right. You know, he did need that button, and that button was perfect. So I think that we need to talk about now. How. How did this movie. Do you have stats on this movie, Brad? How did this movie perform?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it was a touchstone film, as we said, from 1988. The budget for this film was 20mil and it grossed 40mil. Now you something I've been thinking about. When they say grossed, are they talking about marketing or is Mark. I think marketing separate, isn't it?

Tony Maietta:
Well, you mean caught. You mean the. The budget? The budget's. Oh, no, the budget.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yeah, yes. I'm sorry.

Tony Maietta:
Remember.

Brad Shreve:
I'm sorry.

Tony Maietta:
Remember I said to you, no, it's not. Remember when I said to you, if you want to figure out if a film makes. If a film's a hit or made a profit, you kind of have to double the budget because that doubling is the marketing, that doubling is the publicity. That doubling is all the post production stuff film has to go through. Now, that's not exactly right. You know, I'm talking as a general rule about double. Not exactly a double, but about that much.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And so at first, when I initially saw this, I thought, okay, it made double what it was made for, so it didn't do bad. And then I realized, wait a minute, Marketing. I never think about the marketing, and that's always huge. So I don't know, it probably made a profit, but not nearly as much as it.

Tony Maietta:
And that rule does not apply to films from the studio era, by the way. Because studios had the publicity built into the entire studio. So we're talking about films after, you know, after the studio system broke down. That's kind of a general rule. So, yes, this film was not a tremendous box office success. It was a success, though. It was a hit. It made money.

Tony Maietta:
It didn't make as much money as, say, Ruthless People or Outrageous Fortune, but it still made money and it was still a hit. And both Beth and Beth, both Bette and Lily, were nominated for the American Comedy Award. And it's funny because I remember this. I remember when they got the award, they were together on the stage and I remember them saying, wait for it. Are you ready for it?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
We want to. We want to meet Lucy. Here's your Lucy moment. Here's your Lucy moment. Said they want to meet Lucy. We want to meet Lucy. Now, Lucy had met Bed Midler before, so I don't really know what that was about. But anyway, we want to meet Lucy.

Tony Maietta:
And sure enough, Lucy and Bet and Lily went to lunch not long after this. There are photos of it. And it's great because that's awesome. Lucy died one year later. So, yeah, it's amazing that they had this opportunity to say, we want to have lunch with Lucy. We want to meet Lucy. They got to meet Lucy. Lucy.

Tony Maietta:
That's my. That's my memory of that.

Brad Shreve:
And I would love to have seen the three together. What a. What a trio. The pictures are now Rotten Tomatoes. The critics gave it a 52%. Obviously pretty lukewarm there. The audience liked it a little bit better, 69%. I will say I'm more in line with the critics.

Brad Shreve:
My background with this story is. I asked after you said you wanted to do this film, I thought, I think I've seen that. And I think I told you that. I said, I think I saw it, but I don't remember a thing. And I did see it years ago, and it completely wiped from my memory. And I asked Maurice, did I see this movie? He said, you absolutely hated it. I said, oh, no. I said, oh, no.

Brad Shreve:
I'm gonna come out like an asshole. Because I halfway remember that when I rewatched it, it did feel totally new to me. I didn't hate it. I will say that. But I wouldn't say I liked it either. It was just a Sunday afternoon flipping through the channels. Oh, there it is. Yeah, let me watch that.

Tony Maietta:
I get that.

Brad Shreve:
That's what it was to me.

Tony Maietta:
I get that. And you know what? I don't expect everybody to have the personal reaction as I Tried to say at the beginning of the episode, you know, there are movies. Everybody's experience with a movie depends on what. What they're going through in their life. That's what's wonderful about movies. You know, movies can either confirm something you're feeling at the moment, or they can make you forget something you're feeling in the moment. Sometimes you need a real escape. You know, at that point in my life, I needed the lift.

Tony Maietta:
I needed the escape. I kind of need it now, too. I think we all do, but. Or most people. And so that's what's great about movies. That's what's great about these experiences, is they're individual. So I wouldn't expect you to have the same kind of emotional kind of love I have for this film. Because when I'm watching it, I'm thinking, this is really silly little sliver of a movie.

Tony Maietta:
Despite the fact I love Lily, I love bet. I can see what you're saying. For me, I have a personal feeling for this movie that is totally mine and individual. So I would never expect that. But I'm glad that you enjoyed it, at least.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. Yeah, I did. I mean, you know, there's always. I'm thinking of one of Betts. I'm sure it was a flop. Isn't she great?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, where she plays.

Brad Shreve:
Okay. I actually like that movie. It's a terrible film, actually. It's kind of dull. But I liked it because I thought she and Nathan Lane really worked well together. And I liked their carefree attitude. Get up and drink in the morning and. But they didn't really act like alcohol.

Brad Shreve:
I liked all that. It's a fun movie for me to watch, but I don't think most people would like it. So I kind of get where you're coming from there. This is better than that. I will tell you for sure. Let me tell you my challenges with it because I already kind of told you that I thought as a screwball comedy, it didn't really work. I really got a kick out of the Rich sisters. Those two I really liked.

Brad Shreve:
They had great energy. They were fun. The country sisters. They didn't feel that enjoyable to me. They felt. They felt too caricature. I'm sorry I drank coffee earlier. I'm having a hard time saying these words.

Brad Shreve:
Their clothes were kind of cartoonish. And it wasn't like the whole film was cartoonish. It just. It was too cliche and too on the nose to me. So those were some of the challenges I had with this. And that's probably. I Think I really did not enjoy the country sisters nearly as much as the city sisters. And because I love ruthless people, I think Bette just plays a rich, crazy woman much better than she played the country woman.

Brad Shreve:
She just didn't. It didn't land with me and all her doing that. No. And I know she was supposed to be a little. Because she was sisters of the. Of the other bet. She was supposed to be a little more.

Tony Maietta:
She was a little rougher. Yeah. A little more of a city. Yeah. She was a fish out of water when she was in the country. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, she was in the country. So I get that. It just didn't work as well.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I think she has. I think she has real charm as country that I really do. I love it. I mean, when she goes. When city bet goes, oh my God, it's me with a bad haircut. And she says, I paid 12 bucks for this. I mean, there's a real charm to her, I feel.

Tony Maietta:
I think she's successful in both. I think Lily is very successful as the fish out of water city Lily. Silly. I keep calling her Silly Tomlin.

Brad Shreve:
She would probably be fine with that.

Tony Maietta:
I think she's great as the city rose. Yes. I think she's wonderful, touching as the city rose.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I agree with you, Country Rose. Although I think, you know, is a frog's ass watertight. Some of the things she says are very, very funny is Country Rose. It's not as effective as she is when she's city Rose. So. Yeah, but we're nitpicking here. I mean, this is a farce. This is a farce that you just gotta watch it and say, I'm gonna have a silly time.

Tony Maietta:
I think it's really kind of sad that they don't. Well, I think it's very sad. Hollywood doesn't make a lot of movies anymore that aren't superhero movies. Don't get me started. But this kind of mid level adult comedy farce just doesn't exist anymore. You know, it's not a huge budgeted film. It was a mid level budget film. Just a fun time.

Tony Maietta:
And I can't remember the last time I went and saw one of these in a theater. Which makes me really sad because it'd be nice to have them back. It really would.

Brad Shreve:
And I started earlier and I said, I love the premise. And I did. I think the premise was fantastic. I love the bones of this.

Tony Maietta:
Well, thanks, Shakespeare.

Brad Shreve:
I would really. Well, yeah, I'll think. I'll think, will think, Platus. But I'd love To see someone remake this with sharper writing and a more grounded tone.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, well, there you go.

Brad Shreve:
But. But still, be campy. I think it's. It would be a great movie. I think it was really the writing and the directing. I'll. I'll give Abrams a pass on it because it was his first. First by himself.

Brad Shreve:
I'm sure he's relieved that I said that.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he's. He's passed on, so I don't think it'll.

Brad Shreve:
Well, he's. He's looking down and smiling on me now.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Brad, is there anything else you want to say about the podcast or anything else?

Brad Shreve:
I said my piece about the. The movie. It's okay. Go see Ruthless People if you haven't seen it. It's.

Tony Maietta:
To me, it's better plugging another movie.

Brad Shreve:
Because I know what I said. I don't think people liked it that well, and you were trying to correct me. I. This is a lot like, what's up, doc? I asked people about this movie, and they have no clue as to what I'm talking.

Tony Maietta:
Really?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I don't know what circles. I'm.

Tony Maietta:
Ruthless People. Ruthless People. Well, it's a very 80s film, you know. I mean.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it is very 80s. It is very 80s. So, anyway, yes, listener, if this is your first, second, or third time listening and you haven't subscribed, please click. Actually, it's not subscribing anymore. It's called follow. Click the follow button. And if you've been listening to us, we would love to have you rate and review the show. We got a.

Brad Shreve:
Two new reviews, and I'm sorry. I was gonna read part of them off so I could thank the individuals, and I'll have to do that the next time around.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, that's great. I love hearing that. I love hearing. I haven't seen him yet. Oh, I can't wait. Yes. Next time we're going to mention. That's great.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Brad, looks like I got my Tuesday panties on. So that means there's only one thing left to say. But I'm not gonna say it. I'm gonna yodel it. No, I'm kidding. Let's not say goodbye. Let's say ole, ole. Ole.

Brad Shreve:
No. Before you yodel again, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Goodbye, everybody. Apologies.