Brad Shreve:
Tony, I was kind of reluctant to suggest this series. I felt like we had to because it was. The term is overused. But it was groundbreaking in so many ways. But it never was a huge hit. It never reached, what, higher than 47th in the ratings? I think it was. Yeah, it was always low in the ratings, but it changed my life.

Tony Maietta:
Did it really?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Do you want to know how it changed my life?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. In what way, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Because most of the series ran Wednesday nights at 10 o' clock every Wednesday night. I turned down when people said, let's go do this, let's go do that, let's go to this. Now, granted, this is back before the days of Netflix where a whole series drops in a day. It's a whole different world. I swarmed to myself. I will never, ever get into a series again where that happens. And I will say, except for a few exceptions where I was watching with somebody else, I stuck with shows like CSI where, yeah, there's a background story, but for the most part, everything's wrapped up in a bow. You can watch one episode and never watch it for two more years and watch another episode.

Brad Shreve:
So I stayed with that.

Tony Maietta:
So wait, so what you're saying is that you didn't want to miss because it was because of the serialized nature of the episodes, you didn't want to miss the episode, Is that what you're saying? Or any episode?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I had to be there every Wednesday night to see I was not gonna miss an episode. I loved the show too much, and I was just so addicted to it, I had to see it.

Tony Maietta:
Do you think we should tell people what the show is that you were so addicted to that?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, well, they probably know from the intro, but we're talking about Sane Elsewhere.

Tony Maietta:
That's true. That's true. Well, you know, here's something interesting. Wednesday nights, huh? This is funny. This is. I always like to tell people this. This is Brad's baby. Brad wanted to do this.

Tony Maietta:
This is Brad's show. I love St. Elsewhere. I'm not saying that I would not want to do St. Elsewhere, but. But my experience with St. Elsewhere is much different than yours because the years that it ran From October of 1982 to May of 1988 coincide exactly with my high school college years. And I was doing many other things during my high school and college years and staying home and watching Saint Elsewhere.

Tony Maietta:
Now, that didn't stop me from vcring the Golden Girls, but still. So my experience with this series is not nearly as thorough as yours. So we're kind of Switching hats here. I'm gonna let you be the TV historian for this one, and I'm gonna be the normal guy who just likes to watch tv.

Brad Shreve:
There you go. You know, I was only a toddler when this came out, so.

Tony Maietta:
That's true. Yeah. I was Mensa in high school and college, if that wasn't clear. Yeah. Very, very young.

Brad Shreve:
Very young. But, yes, yes, I'm very interested to see what your thoughts are now that we did a deep dive. We watched four episodes. Two were part of a two parter. Yeah, it's kind of one big episode. So I'm interested, as we get into these, to see what your thoughts are.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah, my thoughts are interesting. I'm interested to see what my thoughts are.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Because I'm flying blind here, and I'm not. Of course I'm not. I would never do that. But, I mean, I do have. You know, I'm not ignorant of this show. Obviously. I love this. I love this series.

Tony Maietta:
I had seen it. But when you said you wanted to do St. Elsewhere, you wanted to talk about St. Elsewhere, I would realize, wow, I have not seen St. Elsewhere in many, many years. Now, this is funny because, you know, there are shows from that time period, such as Cheers, such as the Golden Girls, as I just said, which I've seen over and over again over the years. I haven't seen Saint Elsewhere over and over again. Which is kind of interesting, you know, because it was such a groundbreaking show and such an awarded show.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, yes, you said it never got higher than 47, but it won 13 Emmys. It was nominated for 62. So, you know, we're up in Mary Tyler Moore land here. No coincidence. But I'm surprised that it's not. I know there was gonna be a movie at one point and, yeah, that felt, you know, reboot. Yeah. So I think that it's kind of interesting that this show, though groundbreaking and a real touchstone for TV in the 80s, is not that much brought up again.

Tony Maietta:
It's not revived as much as I thought it would be.

Brad Shreve:
Well, it actually, yeah, vanished from TV altogether or from any streaming service. I was watching interviews with some of the surviving cast members. They were doing these during COVID on YouTube and they said, you know, we stopped hearing from people. And then it got on Hulu and all of a sudden the letters started coming in again.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, well, it's a great. It's a wonderful show. It's Hill Street Blues in a hospital.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, though I think it's better. I think it's better.

Tony Maietta:
But Yeah, I do too. I heard that. That's how I heard it. Was it. But I always thought that St. Elsewhere was a pretty good title because that's where most of the audience was during its primetime run. Elsewhere.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, they were. So do you want to tell people what Saint Elsewhere means?

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah, St. Elsewhere, basically. That's obviously not the name of the hospital, but St. Elsewhere is kind of like a catch all phrase in the pilot. Doesn't Dr. Craig say it's called St. Elsewhere because a Boston media source named it? Is that because they perceived the hospital as a dumping ground? A place where you wouldn't want to send your mother. Your mother in law? Isn't that what Dr.

Tony Maietta:
Craig says in the first episode? It's like a catch all phrase too, for teaching hospitals in general. Right, that's what I heard.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, it is a catch all for typically any hospital that takes people that other hospitals won't because they necessarily don't have finance like MLK Hospital in la, that they finally closed down because it never got good funding and it was a struggling hospital, or as you said, a general rule that are teaching hospitals, which incorrectly are typically considered not as up to par.

Tony Maietta:
And let me just say too, I'm not going to attempt any more Boston dialects of William Daniels or anybody else. I just had to get that one in there because I do like the way he said your mother in law. I can't do a good Boston anyway. Yes. So it's obviously not called Saint Elsewhere for reals. It's called Saint Allegiance. Do you know what Saint Allegiance is the patron saint of?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, because it's in one of the episodes that we talked about.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it is.

Brad Shreve:
So you go and say it and then I'm gonna. You usually pass on to me to say what a movie's about. So I'll let you tell the listener as well as what the show is about.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Saint Eligius is the patron saint of craftsmen, which I thought was interesting. Well, Saint Elsewhere is set at a fictional hospital in Boston. It's like a decaying urban hospital.

Brad Shreve:
It's in the South End. Anybody that's familiar with that?

Tony Maietta:
The South End. And it was actually Franklin Square Housing apartments were actually the real place that stood in for Saint Elsewhere. It was. The exteriors were. And as I said, it's a slang term used in the medical field to refer to lesser equipped hospitals that serve patients turned away by, you know, more prestigious. It's a dumping ground, as Dr. Craig said. And it really is like Hill Street Blues in a hospital.

Tony Maietta:
And it's just the interweaving stories, the crossover stories of this group of doctors, this huge cast of doctors dealing with life and death situations. It's like any medical drama that we watch today. It's like Chicago Hope. Does anybody watch Chicago Hope anymore? It's like any of these dramas. It's like Medical Center. It's like any of these dramas and that the personal lives intertwine with the professional lives. There's, you know, what's that. What's that one that's on now? Is it still on now?

Brad Shreve:
I haven't watched any really since this one. I've watched a few episodes of Scrubs, but that was. Some of the cast members of First Day House were showed up on Scrubs.

Tony Maietta:
Scrubs is different. Yeah, the one with Dr. McDreamy.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, that was Chicago Hope, wasn't it? No, I remember him being referred to. I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
We're pathetic.

Brad Shreve:
You look it up while we talk. But there is one big difference. This show had that has been true since then. But this show made a big difference. And this was not Dr. Kildare. This was not Marcus Welby. Every patient did not live.

Brad Shreve:
Every doctor was not perfect. Every doctor did not make the perfect call. You know, Dr. Welby, on his way home, would stop by the hospital to see a patient or just their home to see how they're doing. This was real people. These were doctors that they. They were. What is it when you're.

Brad Shreve:
These were residents that had to sleep in bunk beds, that were exhausted from working days at a time. They made mistakes. People died. The hospital was falling apart around them. They didn't have the best equipment. It wasn't this perfect hospital. And it weren't. They weren't perfect doctors.

Brad Shreve:
And that's where. That's what drew me in from the beginning, and that's what helped me all the way through. Because it wasn't necessarily a hospital drama. This was real people.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't Grey's Anatomy. I think that's what you're trying to say.

Brad Shreve:
I don't know. I've never watched Grey's anatomy.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's Dr. McDreamy's Grey's Anatomy.

Brad Shreve:
Ah, gotcha.

Tony Maietta:
Anyway, anyway, yes, I agree with you. That's what's interesting about it. And this. This just a little background about. About this. The show was created by Joshua Brand and John Falzy. It was developed by Mark Tinker and John Masias. And among the notable producers of the show were maybe a couple names which might seem familiar to you.

Tony Maietta:
Bruce Paltrow. Yes. Gwyneth's dad. And the directors included Mark Tinker's brother, John Tinker. Now, I've said Tinker twice. Now I'm gonna say one more time, because, yes, indeed, they are children of the ever dapper, ever handsome, ever farsighted Grant Tinker, Mr. MTM. Which I'm not gonna call him Mr.

Tony Maietta:
MTM because he was a force in his own right. But yes, and interestingly, we talked about how this show never ranked higher than 47 in the ratings. Now, its first season, it was in danger of being canceled, but the president of NBC had a soft spot for the show and kept it on. And who was that president of NBC, Brad. Do you know?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I'm drawing blank. I'm thinking of the different presidents that I'm drawing a blank.

Tony Maietta:
Grant Tinker. Don't you get my joke?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Okay. I feel like an idiot.

Tony Maietta:
Daddy kept. Daddy kept the show on the air. I think that's wonderful.

Brad Shreve:
I had no idea that he was. He was there at that time. I heard all these other reasons they kept it on because it did have a. The audience was small, but it was. First, the demographics were good. And second, it was small, but they were very, very loyal.

Tony Maietta:
They were very loyal. It was a. It was the demographic Everybody loves 18 to 34. You know, the. The young, affluent. But it was Grant. It had a little bit of a ratings boost near the end of its first season, but it was still in danger of being canceled. It was in danger of being canceled every season.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, you know, it didn't get higher than 47. So, you know, this show is not a huge ratings getter, but it was recognized for the brilliant writing, for the brilliant acting, the incredible storytelling techniques that it employed. Did you notice. Have you seen Adolescence on Netflix? The show that's big Emmy. Okay. The. The gimmick of adolescence is it's all one shot. Seriously, There are no cuts.

Tony Maietta:
It's a big, long play for an hour, and the camera moves all over. And St. Elsewhere does that. St. Elsewhere does all these very long scenes where you're following one character and the camera turns and you follow another character. And I was like, oh, my God, this is. Having not seen St. Elsewhere in so long and just having recently watched Adolescence, I was like.

Tony Maietta:
Like adolescence. But of course it cuts. There are cuts in St. Elsewhere. They didn't film the whole hour at once like they do with adolescents. But this was all really wonderful, groundbreaking stuff. And so, yes, there was a definite buzz about this show that kept it on. Plus, it dealt with some Pretty heavy topics.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, well, yeah. I mean, the most famous one everybody thinks about is Mark Harmon's character, who was Bobby Caldwell. Okay. We were five years into the AIDS epidemic because it was first caught doctor's eyes. The CBC published an article on it in 1981, and other than a TV movie, it was never mentioned on television at all until Mark Harmon's character, Bobby Caldwell, was diagnosed with HIV in the fourth season in 1986.

Tony Maietta:
And can I just say something?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Mark Harmon, Denzel Washington. I'll even throw in Ed Begley Jr. Now, one of the episodes you gave me to watch featured these people.

Brad Shreve:
And I'll tell you, Mark Harmon and Scrubs.

Tony Maietta:
I'm like, what the hell? I love this cast. I love this cast. I love the cast of the episodes that you gave me to watch. But I'm like, he doesn't give me an episode with Denzel. He didn't give me an episode with I'll take frickin. Ed Begley Jr. No. Let alone Mark Harmon.

Tony Maietta:
It's fine. It's fine.

Brad Shreve:
There's a reason why you didn't see one that highlighted Denzel. Yeah, it's amazing. He was on all six seasons as many characters that were killed off or vanished or moved away on the series, especially in the beginning when they could not get the. The cast was really bloated. He never had a decent storyline, ever. His whole purpose was when Howie Mandel would say something funny. He was the straight man. Or if somebody.

Brad Shreve:
One of the other residents was having a difficult time with the diagnosis, he was always a little smarter and would help them. That was his only purpose on the show.

Tony Maietta:
He does.

Brad Shreve:
Totally screwed.

Tony Maietta:
He does do that in. In the. The one episode that you gave me. He does. He is very, very smart in these.

Brad Shreve:
He's helping Jack.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, exactly. He is. He's telling him to go down to the basement. We're going to hit of ourselves. We're going to have to.

Brad Shreve:
But he's totally the straight man with Howie.

Tony Maietta:
Here's the thing about. I mean, let's talk about this cast. But first I just want to say, you know, Glory Denzel's big Academy Award for supporting actor was in 89. So it was after this show was over. So, you know, he was. He was doing his work. He was doing his journeyman acting work. And then he did Glory and the rest is acting history.

Tony Maietta:
But let's think some of. Some of these other people you mentioned, Howie Mandel, I always forget how he's in this. And then I'm like, oh, God, of course. Howie Mandel's in this. Bonnie Bartlett. Who?

Brad Shreve:
I love.

Tony Maietta:
I love Bonnie Bartlett. I love me some Bonnie Bartlett. Christina Pickles.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I love her.

Tony Maietta:
I love Christina Pickles. Did you remember her on Friends? She was Monica and Ross's mother on Friends.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, I did.

Tony Maietta:
With Elliott Gould as. Oh, yeah. She's so, so funny on Friends. And she's just as funny here. And I didn't realize she was actually British. She's a British actress.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And she's got that slightly in Friends. Obviously, she downplays it. She's got just a really wonderful way of speaking. So there's still a fantastic supporting cast in this, but we have the three main people. I think we need to talk about the three main leading men in this. Because to me, that's what really. That's really what this show is about, is about these three main guys. We talk about them.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, I would go a little longer than that. I mean, I would never get a one and get into all of them because there were so many people over the series. But, yeah, I'll let you talk about the three main ones.

Tony Maietta:
I'll tell you about the main guys. Okay. We have Ed Flanders, my favorite, who plays Dr. Donald Westfall, who was in the show up until the final year, then he left and came back for the final episode. Right, I'm correct.

Brad Shreve:
He came back for two episodes in the final year.

Tony Maietta:
Final year. Okay.

Brad Shreve:
He.

Tony Maietta:
Later, he played Dr. Donald Westfall, nominated for five Emmy awards. He won in 1983. And of course, he is the one who famously showed his ass on primetime tv.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, the first ass showing when he.

Tony Maietta:
Mooned his new boss in the final episode of season five. And, you know, do you know? This is so cute. Do you know what the name of that episode is, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I know Moon is in it.

Tony Maietta:
It's Moon for the Misbegotten because Flanders won a Tony Award in 1974 for Moon for the Misbegotten, which is a Eugene O' Neill play. So he had won the Tony for the play Moon for the Misbegotten. And so the episode in which he actually mooned somebody in St. Elsewhere and shows his ass, they named it Moon for the Misbegotten. I thought that was so cute. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And this isn't one of the episodes we talked about, but I do want you to know that they had a hard time getting through the sensors. And finally when they showed the clip, the sensor said there was nothing sexual about that. Okay, we're fine with it.

Tony Maietta:
Yet another groundbreaking thing about the show you're an asshole.

Brad Shreve:
He showed his ass. It wasn't like, let's be.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he said, maybe I'll put this in language you understand. Right. And then he drops his pants and shows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, unfortunately, you know, he dealt with depression his entire life. I'm always doing this. I'm always bringing down this podcast. And he committed suicide in 1995, which is very sad because a very, very gifted, smart, wonderful actor.

Tony Maietta:
He was on an episode of Mary Tyler Moore, by the way. He played a priest that Mary thought that a priest who was. Who may or not be leaving the priesthood because of Mary Richards. So that's the power of Mary Richards. Anyway, so we have Ed Flanders, we have William Daniels, who was a Broadway and TV actor, probably most famous, at least in acting circles, for playing John Adams in 1776, the musical 1776. But he's also best known to TV fans. Do you know with what Brad. I know.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, it's Boy Meets World.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that. But he was also the voice of Kit.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, he was the voice of Kit.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
We're showing our age there.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes. He won two Emmys for this show. He was. He was married to Bonnie Bartlett, who plays his wife on the show. And believe it or not, God bless, he is still alive as of this recording. He is 98 years old. God bless William Daniels and his impeccable Boston dialect. And then finally, we have the indefatigable Norman Lloyd.

Tony Maietta:
Who? God, Norman Lloyd. He played in films back into the 40s. He was in Hitchcock, Saboteur, Spellbound. He was in Limelight, Charlie Chaplin's limelight. In fact, he had the enviable position of sharing the screen with Chaplin and Keaton in the final scene of Limelight, when Chaplin's character dies because he talked about it all the time. I met Norman Lloyd on more than one occasion. He was a wonderful guy. I would see him at Chaplin retrospectives.

Tony Maietta:
He was always talking about Charlie and he was always talking about. He was just a really warm, engaging man, you know, just like Dr. Oschlander. Just as warm and engaging as Dr. Oschlander. Those are the main three, I think, don't you feel? Those are the main three. And everybody else kind of circles around them.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And the interesting thing is Norman Lloyd, who played Dr. Oslander, he was. Had a guest starring role in the first season. And was. Their plan was to kill him off.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Because he had. He had cancer and it was brought up a lot in the first season. The expectation was that they were going to kill him. Off before the end of the first season and second season. Lo and behold, the rest of the series. He was a main cast member. I think he is probably the most underrated of the three. I think his character was wonderful and easy to love.

Brad Shreve:
He wasn't as easy to love as Aliceland. I mean, I don't know how anybody could not just want to pick up that man and hold him, be held by him like a grandpa. I don't mean a sexual way like a grandpa, but he just, I don't know, he seems like the kind of the grumpy grandpa that when nobody's looking, gives you a piece of candy.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, he lived to be 106.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, he did.

Tony Maietta:
Isn't that amazing? He died in 2021. He made his last film at a hundred. Yeah, he was quite a guy. He was an incredible guy. He was really. He was a lot of fun. And my God, he knew Chaplin, he knew Keaton. It was just.

Tony Maietta:
He's an astounding. For a film historian, it's just. It's catnip. It's catnip.

Brad Shreve:
I do want to say one thing about Ed Flanders before I forget because I, you know, he did suffer from addiction and, well, he suffered from depression his whole life, which, you know, addiction was there. And that's very common with people that have mental disorders. The reason he left at the end of the fifth season was a dual decision. One, because he had become so erratic on the series. They were always concerned about him getting his roles right and whatever. At the same time, he knew he was having a problem and he wanted to take that time off to take care of himself and his family. I think that says a lot about him.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah. No, absolutely no. What a wonderful actor. I mean, just, you know, he's one of. He has an innate humanity which is so perfect for Dr. Westfall. We want that in our series lead. We want someone that we can identify with, someone to connect to.

Tony Maietta:
You know, he's. And that's why, you know, you have to have him. Because if you're going to have Daniels, you need a ying to a yang. You know, you need. If somebody's going to be hard edged and sarcastic and, let's face it, bitchy, you need somebody who is going to soften that. And that's exactly what Flanders does in this show. I just, I love that. I love that.

Tony Maietta:
So as we said, the show because it's set in Boston, there were some crossovers which I think is very weird. And I want to ask your opinion about this.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
There was a crossover episode in 1985 called Cheers.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And guess where the crossover took place? At Cheers.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. They went to this bar near the Public Gardens.

Tony Maietta:
But isn't it. I think it's so weird that a drama does a crossover to a sitcom. And it was filmed on the Cheers set.

Brad Shreve:
You know, it was filmed on the Cheers set. They darkened the set. It's weird. They gave it a different look and feel, but it still was Cheers, obviously. I will say, the first time I watched it, I didn't like it. It seemed too gimmicky and odd. Later years when I watched, I thought they did a really good job of the crossover between the Serious Drum. I say serious drama.

Brad Shreve:
There was a lot of humor in St. Elsewhere.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
But it was a serious drama and just an outright sitcom. They. I think they did a good job melding them together.

Tony Maietta:
I know. I mean, I think we're so used to crossovers now. I mean, my God, how many times, you know, the Golden Girls went to Empty Nest and, you know, how many different places did Friends go? But I think that it's always odd when you're changing genres, when you're going. From when a drama is guesting on a sitcom. Did now. I'm sorry, spoiler alert here. I never. I've never seen this episode.

Tony Maietta:
Did they show the fourth wall of Cheers or did they totally disregard that? They were like, we're not going to worry about that.

Brad Shreve:
They never showed the fourth wall.

Tony Maietta:
It's so odd.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. They was filmed just like Cheers. Yes, it was filmed just like Cheers. Like they said, they darkened the set. Carla was their waitress, and they mentioned that they were doctors of Saint Allegiance. She goes Saint Elsewhere. I had my last child there. I almost died.

Brad Shreve:
You know, that kind of thing.

Tony Maietta:
Crazy. I love that. I love that. Cliff and Norm are on there, too.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And Dr. Oslander noticed Norm.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And Norm had been his accountant. And Dr. Oschlander had to pay a fortune in back taxes because Norm had fudged the books a little bit. More than a little bit. And then Cliff came over and was trying to get free medical advice, of course. So they did have this serious conversation at the same time these characters were coming in. So like I said, it was. It was done really well.

Brad Shreve:
They were having these conversations and these characters came over playing themselves and then would feel like idiots and would go away. Except Carla. She never felt like an idiot. They hated her the whole time. You can imagine what Dr. Craig William Danlitz had to say about her.

Tony Maietta:
I gotta watch this. I Gotta watch this. All right. So the. I guess we should say what the format of this episode of Going Hollywood is. Four episodes. Brad assigned four episodes. Four episodes.

Tony Maietta:
And he didn't do like I do and change his mind at the last minute. Sent me a text. We stuck to the four episodes. So the first episode we're going to talk about is from season one. It's the fourth episode, so we're only four episodes in. It's called Cora and Arnie. It aired on November 23rd in 1982. The story was by Joshua Brand, John Falzi and Neil Cuthbert.

Tony Maietta:
I hope I said that right. Cuthbert. And it was directed by Mark Tinker. I'm curious, Brad, why did you want me to watch this episode first?

Brad Shreve:
I wanted you to watch this because when the show started it was very messy. There were too many characters.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Where the hell did David Bernie come from? And where the hell did he go?

Brad Shreve:
He was never explained.

Tony Maietta:
Not to Meredith Baxter either.

Brad Shreve:
And who was the guy that was a psychiatrist who was one of my favorite characters? He also vanished without explanation. Yeah, yeah, both of them vanished. Never came back after season two with no explanation.

Tony Maietta:
Dr. Beal, was that his name?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, Dr. Beal. And I can't think of the character, the actor's name.

Tony Maietta:
His name was G.W. bailey.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, G.W. bailey. The show was bloated. It also was new and it was. It was hard to get to know the characters because there were so many of them, you know, in addition to the top three, it did highlight particular ones that did come to the surface and were some of the few that lasted the whole series, like Ed Begley's character and Howie Mandel's character and Jack Morrison's or not David Morrison's character. Those stayed the whole way through. And of course Christina Peckles. I couldn't imagine if they got rid of her.

Tony Maietta:
God bless. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
But everybody else kind of spun. There were, you know, some. Some that you liked left, some that you didn't like at all, fortunately vanished and on. I will say that the end of the series was not great because they brought in characters that they really couldn't warm up to. Greenwood's character, who was in the final episode, they never did find anything for a good storyline. And I was listening to some of the other cast members and they were like, we were so cheering him on, like, give this guy a story. And I thought, well, what have you been saying for six years about Denzel?

Tony Maietta:
Right. Hello. Why don't you give the future two time Oscar winner a story for God's Sake.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. You never warmed up to the new characters that you brought in at the end.

Tony Maietta:
Sounds a lot like Rhoda, like any of these characters who came on.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes.

Tony Maietta:
So in this. I think I know why though, that you wanted me to do this episode.

Brad Shreve:
It was the first one that was really emotional and I'll let you talk about that.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I think because we have two Emmy winners here. Not only Emmy winners, but two icons we've got. So in the episode a bag woman. I apologize for that incorrect term. An unhoused woman, I guess would be the best way to say it. They call it her bag woman.

Brad Shreve:
Transient.

Tony Maietta:
It's the transient rejects a life saving treatment to care for her bewildered and mentally challenged mate. And the transient woman and her mate are played by none other than Doris Roberts and James Coco. And they both won Emmys for this episode. It's fantastic.

Brad Shreve:
Well deserved, especially, I will say, James Coco.

Tony Maietta:
Oh my God, it was heartbreaking. He's heartbreaking. The scene where he forgets that she's gonna go get tests, get pictures taken, as she says. And he has that breakdown in the hallway and he's like hitting his fist and he's in the corner and he's crying and he's crying. And here's the thing though. Christina Pickles comes up and she doesn't say, it's okay, it's okay. She, Cora didn't go anywhere. She's here.

Tony Maietta:
She's just like, oh, it's okay, it's okay. Tell him why you're not comforting him, Christina Pickles. Come on.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, then.

Tony Maietta:
But of course he finds out, oh, he was heartbreaking. Heartbreaking.

Brad Shreve:
In the Doris Roberts character, Cora, she is kind of a more hard, rough life kid who is street smart and kind of tough. Not, not real tough, but tough.

Tony Maietta:
As far as attitude goes, she's an unhoused Marie Barone. Let's just call it like it is.

Brad Shreve:
Very true, very true. Whereas James Coco's character, Arnie has serious mental disabilities.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, exactly.

Brad Shreve:
He's mentally challenged.

Tony Maietta:
He's just so sweet. Yeah, those Emmys so, so well deserved it. And I did. Did you know that they were good friends in real life, Roberts and Coco? Did you know that?

Brad Shreve:
No, I didn't know that.

Tony Maietta:
They appeared together on Broadway in Neil Simon's Last of the Red Hot Lovers. And when James Coco died, Doris Roberts gave a very touching tribute to him. So they were friends. What's wonderful is that they were friends in real life. And you totally. I mean, I totally pick up on that when I see them in Here. They're so fun together. They're the perfect.

Tony Maietta:
Until she found Peter Boyle on Everybody Loves Raymond. James Coco is her perfect. Her perfect counterpart, I think.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned earlier that what I loved about this series, it wasn't necessarily a medical drama. This episode, all about humanity.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Well, it's just beautiful.

Brad Shreve:
It's hard. I can't imagine anybody not struggling to not tear up by the end.

Tony Maietta:
Who's the other big guest star in this episode? Brad.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, my goodness.

Tony Maietta:
Who plays the time?

Brad Shreve:
Remember who the other guest stars were?

Tony Maietta:
Are you kidding me? Who plays the bomber?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, my gosh, I forgot.

Tony Maietta:
Tim Robbins.

Brad Shreve:
Thank you. I knew it started with an R. And, yeah, that was an interesting thing there. He certainly was a sleazeball character.

Tony Maietta:
Well, the bombing happened, I guess, a couple episodes back, and then. So one of the bombing victims is at St. Eligius and she eventually dies. And he plays a real reprehensible sociopath. Tim Robbins does. And of course, at the end, he gets shot by the bombing victim's husband. This is a young, young, young Tim Robbins. I mean, early 20s, before any films.

Tony Maietta:
And he's so good because he's such a. Oh, prick is too good a word for him. He's just this reprehensible. Well, he's a bomber. But he has no.

Brad Shreve:
He's vile.

Tony Maietta:
He's vile. He has no social conscience whatsoever. He's a sociopath.

Brad Shreve:
No conscience whatsoever.

Tony Maietta:
So, yeah, so that. And if that weren't enough, in this one episode, we also have another couple who we're getting a lesson in how much it costs in 1983 to get medical care at St. Elijah's Boy.

Brad Shreve:
So dating itself.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
What was your total bill at the end?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, God, I don't even. Fourteen thousand dollars. No, not fourteen. No.

Brad Shreve:
It wasn't even that close.

Tony Maietta:
Fourteen hundred dollars.

Brad Shreve:
She had all kinds of. Yeah, I think it was fourteen hundred dollars.

Tony Maietta:
Fourteen hundred.

Brad Shreve:
All kinds of tests done. Stayed overnight.

Tony Maietta:
Fourteen hundred dollars was. Yeah, overnight. Had all kinds of. Because she kept feigning. She kept feigning. And every time she got a test done, you went to that mimeograph. I don't think it's a mimeograph, but, you know, I mean, one of those old things. We've got old printers.

Tony Maietta:
Old printers. Which would. Which would itemize her. The cost of her treatments, and it ended up being fourteen hundred dollars. And the husband is. They're on vacation. The husband is apoplectic about the fact that it's fourteen hundred dollars for all these tests. All this in all this in less than an hour.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Crazy.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, there was a lot in that hour. And you know, this episode, a good example. You know, you mentioned that Tim Robinson's character was. The bombing happened a few episodes back. This episode was really good about. You had storylines about the individual characters that might go half a season, then you'd have hospital patients that might last several episodes. And then you'd have the individual storylines like Korra and Arnie that were one time episodes. You had multi.

Brad Shreve:
It was multi layered and I like that about the show, which makes it feel very real. That's the way hospitals work.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, well, it's that template. It's that template that all dramas follow now. You know, the different stories all interact. You know, cross. I don't want to say crossover, the, the multi layered storytelling. That's. We, we're so used to that now. But it wasn't that common.

Tony Maietta:
No, when, when, when St. Elard did it and the way they inter. Interweave and interlap. It's. It's brilliant. It was a, it's a great episode. I loved it. I'm so glad you recommended it.

Tony Maietta:
Should we go on to our second episode?

Brad Shreve:
We're gonna go on the second one and I'm gonna tell you why I chose this episode because to me it is one of the most brilliant moments of television. This episode, if St. El. The series did not exist, this would have been a beautiful movie.

Tony Maietta:
Well, you weren't alone in that assessment because TV Guide, none other than TV Guide, which, no shade to TV Guide, it was my bible. So everybody out there, be quiet. TV Guide ranked this episode number 44 on its list in 1997 of 100 Greatest Episodes of all time. And they called it a masterwork of dramatic writing. And it is absolutely. The episode is a two parter. It's called Time Heals and it was written by Tom Fontana, John Macius and John Tinker, and again directed by Mark Tinker. These Tinker boys had this series wrapped up and they had Popper running the.

Brad Shreve:
Network and the directors in the series didn't turn over that much. I mean, you had a core group of directors that come in, kept coming back, and I think that really helps the continuity of a series. Sets the tone, keeps it.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's pretty much, you know, the fact that we don't have that now is totally. It always used to be that way. I mean, what we say about Mary Tyler Moore, Jay Sandridge, primary director, all in the Family, John Rich, primary director, you know, Friends, James Burroughs, I'm Sorry. Cheers. James Burroughs and friends, actually primary director, you know, so that was very important because it was, it set a level of continuity. When you have these directors, these guest directors coming in, guest writers too, really coming in and directing episodes. It's very difficult to keep the continuity of a long running series. But hey, shows today rarely run more than three seasons.

Tony Maietta:
So I'm sure they think, who the hell cares? Bring them in. You know what I mean? It's just, it's very important. And yeah, Mark Tinker directed all of these episodes that we're talking about and he directed the majority of the episodes. So I think it's wonderful. And this is such a great episode because in this episode, did I say it originally aired February 19th and 20th, 1986. It is a two parter. In this episode it fleshes out the 50 year history of St. Eligius because they're having the 50th anniversary celebration.

Tony Maietta:
So it's not just one flashback though, it's a series of flashbacks and each flashback is presented in a different style. So if we're in the 30s, it's in black and white. When we're in the 40s, it's in kind of, of like muted colors and.

Brad Shreve:
Pastels, almost a sepia tone, but a little.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes. In the 60s, you know, it's bright colors and of course it's regular colors for the, for the current day. And I also think what else is interesting is how these characters, some of the characters in the episode, obviously they don't go from the 30s to the 80s. But for instance, Kate Nelligan, Brian Kerwin have a storyline that takes place in the 60s. And then they have a storyline that takes place in the current era. And they're the same characters, they're just old.

Brad Shreve:
See how families in that community were tied to the hospital, you know, even though it was a, probably a small part in their lives as far as day to day living. You saw from the hospital standpoint these people, families coming and going throughout the years. And I want to say one thing that I just really love about this episode. The characters played themselves over the year. The only one that was different was Dr. Alschelander, played by.

Tony Maietta:
I've drawn a blank because you can't. Well, how are you gonna. You can't age down, God bless him.

Brad Shreve:
Norman Lloyd, his character started in 1935, so obviously you can't age down him for down 50 years.

Tony Maietta:
They did him, they did for him and they did him in the 60s, though. I like when they did in the.

Brad Shreve:
60S and they did William Daniels and Ed Flanders. I mean, when they showed the 1950s, these guys were probably supposed to be 25 years old and they dyed their hair. And you know what I loved about it? Yes, they looked ridiculous. But you knew why. You know, okay, they're supposed to be in their 20s when they're just starting out.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And you're like, okay, I can live with that. And you moved on and like Dr. Ochlander, the character, you know, there was no way to de age him that much. So they, they brought in a different character. Nowadays they use CGI to de age people. Like Michael Douglas in Ant man or, you know, we've seen a lot lately. What happens is you're like, wow, they did a good job. But the whole time you're, you kind of lost the story because you're watching it to see exactly where did they screw up and where did they get it Right.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
You didn't do that. Like, like I said, oh my gosh, look how ridiculous they look. They have black hair and they're supposed to be in their 20s. And then you move on because you understand why.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yes, yes. And note to Hollywood, it's a hell of a lot cheaper just to have your audience suspend their disbelief and say, I'm watching obviously a film or a TV show. So I'm going to ignore the fact that they're not really in their twenties and enjoy the story.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
O, what is wrong with smart enough.

Brad Shreve:
To figure that out.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I know, but you know that.

Brad Shreve:
If it's too old, you bring a different actor in.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly, exactly.

Brad Shreve:
If you want to fudge it a little bit like a six year old man playing in his twenties. Okay. We can deal with that.

Tony Maietta:
Because what's important is the story. It's not important.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
The technical tricks that you went through to make this, to make Tom Cruise look like he's not 60. You know, it's just, it's. Don't get me started. Anyway, I love this episode for so many reasons. I love the fact that we get the backstory. I love backstories. And it's, you know, the hospital's founding by Dr. Joseph McKay, played by the wonderful.

Tony Maietta:
I say wonderful so much. Played by the sublime Edward Herman. Do you know who Edward Herman is? Have you. Obviously you've seen him before, right?

Brad Shreve:
I mean, oh my God, I've seen him before. And I will say, if there was ever a prisoner priest that you couldn't help but love, it was Father McCabe.

Tony Maietta:
Edward Herman very famously played FDR many times, actually. He was in he's in big business. One of my favorite Ben Middle movies. He's in a lot of stuff. He's, he's a, he was a brilliant, brilliant actor and he did a kick ass Irish accent. I have never. It was so good. It was sublime.

Tony Maietta:
You know, it wasn't. There wasn't. He's, he's a brilliant actor. I loved him in this. He is just such a treat to see him because I knew nothing about this episode and to see him there, I was like, oh, this is going to be good. It's got Edward Herman in it. This episode also features the arrivals of Dr. Oschlander who we just said is not Norman Lloyd.

Tony Maietta:
It's actually another actor playing him because he's supposed to be in his 20s. And yeah, and then it kind of flashes forward and we have the early struggles of Dr. Craig and. And we have the death of Dr. Westfall's wife. And I gotta tell you, when Anita Gillette said I'm gonna go out and get the ice cream, I knew she wasn't gone. I'm like, oh, nobody purposely goes out to get ice cream. Someone forgot.

Tony Maietta:
Unless they're going to end up dead. It's just such a red flag. Don't go get the baskin, Robin. Don't do it. Too bad. Anita Gillette. And you did it. She was goner.

Brad Shreve:
I will say that is one criticism I have of that is they made that couple so lovey dovey.

Tony Maietta:
Oh God, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
That was somewhat. It was unrealistic. And you knew she was gonna die.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's another.

Brad Shreve:
That's my one criticism. I thought they were, they really paired together. They, they had great chemistry as a couple.

Tony Maietta:
They did.

Brad Shreve:
And I was very happy seeing that he was kind of always. He was a lovable sad sack throughout the series. To see him with his wife and when before things in his life started really going downhill, that was really good to see.

Tony Maietta:
The fact that they were lovey dovey and the fact that she was going out for ice cream was a dead giveaway. Yeah, yeah, get it. Dead giveaway. Anyway.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I also love the fact that we get to see his son as a child because we all know. Well, we'll get to it. But we all know what a pivotal role the Westfall child plays at the end of the series. But anyway, we'll get to it here. This was my. There were a couple of very cute things in this episode and St. Ellsworth did this a lot. They were always doing these fun insider references, jokes.

Tony Maietta:
They would page characters from TV shows Over the PA system. And unless you really knew what was happening. You know, characters from other shows, too. From mash, from the one episode, someone character was watching the Mary Tyler Moore Show. So. Yeah, very, very funny. But did you notice that in this episode there are three surgeons called out that Dr. Craig calls out, and they are Dr.

Tony Maietta:
Burns, Dr. Brooks and Dr. Weinberger. Did you notice?

Brad Shreve:
No, I didn't catch that one.

Tony Maietta:
It's, you know, it's Alan Burns, James O. Brooks and Ed Weinberger from the Mary Jalamora Show.

Brad Shreve:
They kind of got this whole idea, I think, from MASH with the. The movie. I was not a fan of the movie, but they did have a lot of things. If you watch the movie and then go back and listen to the announcements on the speaker, there's a lot of funny stuff in there.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And this show did that with their speakers. For example, in one episode, they paged Dr. Gwyneth Paltrow.

Tony Maietta:
She was a little kid.

Brad Shreve:
I mentioned that to somebody. They're like, why would they do that? She wasn't even celebrity. I said, because her dad ran the show.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I know. Exactly. Exactly. Here's another thing I didn't. This is the one problem I have with this episode is the storyline of Dr. Morrison. Dr. Morrison's son gets kidnapped out of nowhere, out of nowhere, and he is strangely unconcerned about the disappearance of his son.

Tony Maietta:
His son has been. He sees a stranger and take his son into an elevator and he disappears. And he spends the rest of the episode wondering where his son is, but spending most of the time by his patient. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? If that was my son, I wouldn't be insane elsewhere hanging out to see what this guy's. I would. I'm sorry. Hippocratic oath and all. I'd be all over that state looking for my son.

Tony Maietta:
So I have a real. To be perfectly honest, I always have problems with that character. I have to admit, I.

Brad Shreve:
He is probably the least liked character on the entire series. And it's really interesting that he. He was kept on. I don't mind David Morse as the actor. I don't like his character. I wanted in the six years to please give this man one good day. Forgot that. They just kept beating him up and beating him up and beating him up and kept giving him these attitudes.

Brad Shreve:
I'm just like, you know, give this guy a good day or just kill him off, because I can't take this man's struggle. And he didn't really keep it that interesting.

Tony Maietta:
He's such a nudge. I think he deserves all the ill. All the bad things that happened to him. I find him so annoying. I really do. And I was just like. It's funny because I was watching it and I watched last episode and I was surprised to see him because somewhere in my head I thought something tragic did happen to him. Like, really tragic.

Tony Maietta:
Like he fell down an elevator shaft. You know, like Rosalind on LA Law. I thought that's what happened to him. I thought it was. But no, he was still there at the last episode. So I was like, oh, I guess he did survive. Oh, all right, go ahead, Dr. Morrison.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, that was very strange to me.

Brad Shreve:
And it served no purpose in that episode. It was a standalone. Why would you have a.

Tony Maietta:
It made no sense.

Brad Shreve:
If you're going to have a standalone, have it pivotal to the story. And it added nothing. And the kids like, please get this over with. I want to get back to the good stuff.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. And the happy ending the kids found at the end, which thank God. Happy for that. Although it is fiction, people, so let's not get too.

Brad Shreve:
And it's never explained.

Tony Maietta:
Never explain what happened.

Brad Shreve:
Questioned. It's just like, oh, here he is walking in with somebody in the hospital.

Tony Maietta:
That's it. What happened to him? Nothing.

Brad Shreve:
The only part that was really difficult in that and actually was legitimate, as much as I hated that storyline, was when he was taken to the mor. Because they found a dead boy and they thought it was him.

Tony Maietta:
That's horrible.

Brad Shreve:
And him having to look at the body and then the gasp that he had when he realized it wasn't his son.

Tony Maietta:
But okay, is it just me, or did Dr. Westfall seemed to be smiling when he said, the police want to see you? Dr. Westfall seemed a little too. I was like, oh, they found his son alive. And then we come to a commercial, we come back and they're in the morgue. I'm like, wait a minute. What? What?

Brad Shreve:
The Dr. Westfall, the most caring, compassionate character, said it to him in a way that you thought, oh, great, the boy's little boy's gonna be sitting in the police station waiting for his daddy.

Tony Maietta:
And eating an ice cream cone like Fred.

Brad Shreve:
They did that so it would be a surprise, but it just was totally out of character.

Tony Maietta:
It's very strange, the look on Dr. Westphall's face. I don't know. There was some continuity problems. Okay. Though I do have to say the one thing. One thing. And it's 1986.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, I get it. God bless. Okay, 86. But Kate Mulgrew and Brian Kerwin's son is gay. And of course, when it's revealed, the big reveal is Kate Mulgrew says he's a homosexual. And you just gotta go, okay, it's 1986. Okay, yes, he's a homosexual. I just.

Tony Maietta:
I just find that so, like, you know, and that's why Brian Kerwin's not talking to his son, you know, because he's a homosexual. Maybe he's wearing my makeup, or maybe he's wearing your makeup. He says to Kate, it's just like. But it was 86, so at least.

Brad Shreve:
That would have been my dad.

Tony Maietta:
There was a gay. There was gay representation. There was homosexual representation in this show. So you got to give it to that. And the kid wasn't dying of aids. So there you go.

Brad Shreve:
It's like soap. Billy Crystal's character was horribly done, but everybody was at least happy that we had a gay primary character. And so much of it was a good storyline.

Tony Maietta:
But, yeah, I think earlier I said Kate Nelligan, and I meant Kate Mulgrew. I was in Prince of Tides mode. So I apologize for that.

Brad Shreve:
I knew who you meant. Yeah. And I love that their storyline carried over for all. They did a 1935 storyline as well. Yeah, the. The grandfather was in 35. And so their whole family saw different generations of their family at the hospital. And in the end, it all tied together.

Tony Maietta:
It was really interesting. This was a great episode.

Brad Shreve:
It was a great episode because you learned a lot about the hospital. A reminder how the series started. When it started, it was a city hospital, and you knew that it had originally been a Catholic hospital because there were still statues of Mary there and that sort of thing. So we knew that it used to be a Catholic hospital. It was a city hospital. It run down. And what you learn is that throughout the entire series, you learn that, okay, it was originally. This hospital was built in 1935 by the Catholic Church.

Brad Shreve:
At some point, it was sold to the city of Boston and became a city hospital. And then later in the series, it was bought by the Ekunema Corporation, which later had to be changed to Wygard. Because Humana wanted to sue them. Yeah, Humana wanted to sue them. And so they never explained the name change. Just all of a sudden, they were no longer Ecumena, they were Weigart. So. Because that was the year when.

Brad Shreve:
That was a period when Humana was buying up old, dying hospitals and turning them into profit facilities. And then at the end, when they wanted to close it down, the Catholic Church buys it back again, which I'm very happy about because the show, at the end of the fifth season, they were tearing it down because they thought that was gonna be the end of the series. And I'm really glad that didn't happen because I like to know that the. I like to know that the city, the hospital continued.

Tony Maietta:
Which leads us to our last episode, called, fittingly, the Last one. Story by Tom Fontana. I sound like I'm reading nominations for an award show story by Tom Fontana. Channing Gibson and John Tinker tell play by Bruce Paltrow and Mark Tinker, directed by Mark Tinker, with which aired originally on May 25, 1988. And it is indeed a very, very, very famous final episode, which we will talk about. But so you just said that the show was gonna end in the fifth year and they got a reprise, a last minute reprise for one more season. And what happened in the fifth season, that the hospital was gonna be demolished, but it wasn't. It was safe from being demolished and because it was purchased by this new company.

Tony Maietta:
And so. And that's why Dr. Westphal mooned that was going to be his new boss. And he mooned him. He's like, I'm out of here. So he was gone for most of this season, correct?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes. He didn't. He basically, he didn't want to work for a hospital corporation that was all about profit and not about people.

Tony Maietta:
So Weingart sells the hospital back to the Boston diocese. And as happens in last episodes, we talked about this in our Mary Tyler Moore episode. You know, Mary set the standard, things get wrapped up. You know, Bonnie Bartlett's character, Ellen, is offered a job in Cleveland and William Daniels is horrified by the idea. I guess they had split up, they'd separated and they just got back together again.

Brad Shreve:
She had an affair with the guy that Westfall mooned.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, well, there you go. So he's horrified to go back to Cleveland, to go to Cleveland with her, but he realizes this is what he has to do. He's her husband. And so, you know, and Howie Mendel is also leaving. This is his last day as a resident. So everybody's leaving, everybody's departing except for Westfall. Westfall comes back to run the hospital once it's resold to the Boston diocese. What do you want to talk about with this episode? Because of course we've got the big thing at the end, which is the, you know, the big, big elephant in the room about this whole series, really.

Tony Maietta:
And about this episode in particular. But what would you like to talk about with this episode.

Brad Shreve:
I loved and hated this episode. I didn't think it was a great episode written. There was a lot of fun stuff in it. First of all, let me say about the final episode thing, I hated that everybody was leaving. Granted, we had the original characters that were brought in as residents, so I can accept that they were finally graduating and moving on. I really thought Howie Mandel's character, because I'd forgotten all this. I thought Howie Mandel's character was going to say, you know, I'm going to stay here because they do that. You know, some doctors don't move on to other hospitals.

Brad Shreve:
True. Also, since all the residents were leaving, why did we have to have Dr. Mark Craig leave too? Other than the fact that we got to see that he was for the first time not totally self centered and was thinking about his wife. Yeah, that could have been done earlier, you know, like before. I think it was the episode before this. But I wish they had done it a few episodes before. Then they had Denzel's character move to the south with his. I think they were engaged.

Brad Shreve:
So I would like to have seen more of a transition out rather than like Alice. Everybody had something to do, you know, before the episode ended. You know, it just was too, too, too pat. Format. Yeah, yeah. It was the format that final episodes have and I really expected a lot more from the series to do that. But like the rest of that final season, it wasn't the best. Now what I loved about it is all the shout outs and I know that your one really stood out for you.

Brad Shreve:
All the shout outs to other shows final episodes.

Tony Maietta:
What do you mean the Mary Tyler Moore show shout out?

Brad Shreve:
Well, there was the Mary Tyler Moore show which was the most obvious.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, of course.

Brad Shreve:
There was also Phoenix Shuffle, the Dr. Kildare. Or not Dr. Kildare. Kimball, the Fugitive.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Brad Shreve:
There was a fugitive. There was. It wasn't the final episode of mash, but it was the final episode that had Henry Blake.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
In mash. There was a shout out to that. I was told there's. There's a shout out to Dallas. I could never find it. But my understanding was there was one about that too. So I thought that was really well done and done Cute. I think the little.

Brad Shreve:
The Mary Tyler Moore one might have been a little too on the nose. Yeah, just a bit. Just a bit. Especially when how he said we should all sing It's a Long Long Way to Tipperary. I think that ruined that whole little bit.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I know. I think it's okay. Though I think, you know, it's because, you know, that show was still. It wasn't that long ago that Mary Tyler Moore show was on. And this is MGM production. So, I mean, you know, come on, the tinkers are running the show here. They're going to give a shout out to the parent ship, you know, the mothership. They're going to give a shout out to the mothership.

Brad Shreve:
And I want to give an explanation briefly, the other ones. First of all, the MASH reference. Basically, in the morgue, there is a. A body on the slab and his name is Henry. I don't think we just. It's mentioned that his name is Henry and he was killed in a helicopter.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Accident.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Which is the way Henry Blake died in mash. Now, MASH has been referenced in the show a few times, including Mark Craig, played by William Daniels. One episode said that he served with BJ Honeycutt in Korea. But there's a lot of those. We're going to talk about all that stuff.

Tony Maietta:
There's a lot.

Brad Shreve:
So there's that one. And then, of course, the. The fugitive. The time with that is there is a man with one arm running throughout the hospital and one of the orderlies is chasing him.

Tony Maietta:
Trying to catch him. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Trying to catch him. And in the end, trying to catch.

Tony Maietta:
The one armed man.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And at the end of the. The end, Christina Pickles character says, well, glad we finally have you. Dr. Kimball's been looking everywhere for you.

Tony Maietta:
I screamed.

Brad Shreve:
I thought that was so great.

Tony Maietta:
I love that. I love that. Well, you know what I love about this episode? Besides all those little shout outs, there were other really cute touches. For instance, the opera diva who lost her voice.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And magically gets it back at the end of the episode. And. And what does that mean? It means it ain't over until the fat lady sings. You know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, this is the end, folks. This is the end. That was very cute. Here's something that wasn't so cute, but was probably the longest death in this history of television is Dr. Auschwitz finally died.

Tony Maietta:
He was gonna die the first year, right?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
He was in remission for five years and then, boom, suddenly came back. I love that scene. I love the fact that the phone keeps ringing and people can't figure out why the phone keeps ringing, but nobody's on the other end. And then the orderly, he's not an orderly anymore. He wasn't orderly. But then the doctor goes to Dr. Auschlitz's office and it's him on the receiver. That's why the phone keeps ringing.

Tony Maietta:
He's dead. So, yes, Norman Lloyd checks out of Saint Eligius in this episode, which leads us to what happens at the end, which is really what this show is known for. But, yeah, you have something else before.

Brad Shreve:
We transition, I want to bring up the Norman Loewy thing. There's something about that I hated and something about that I loved. What I hated about it is that again, it was the final episode. Okay. Have him die four or five episodes before that. They did that with Axelrod, which was played by the guy who played Flounder on Animal House.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw that. I saw that. I saw that.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, if you think of a character, you think the Jack, the David Morse character was treated. Stephen first. If you think the Jack, the David Morse character was treated poorly. Oh, my God, they beat up on that poor guy. Especially Denzel. Denzel was not kind to this guy and they. They had him die several episodes. Quite a few episodes before then, of a heart attack.

Brad Shreve:
I wish they had done that with Dr. Auschlander. So we didn't have all that stuff going on in the final episode that bothered me. What I did love about it is it was real life. Characters just die.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And so we didn't have this drawn out, emotional thing. Even after he died, people went on about their lives. It was. It was perfect because, as you said, the phone kept ringing. Why is the damn phone ringing? And Christina Pickles character is going crazy because somebody's playing with the phone.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right.

Brad Shreve:
Just had Luther walk in and see the dead body. And that was it. That's. That's what happens in life.

Tony Maietta:
That is what happens in life. But then what really.

Brad Shreve:
Then we have the final.

Tony Maietta:
Then what really happens? So Dr. Westfall, Tommy, his son Tommy, who is autistic, are in Dr. Oshlander's office, and it's in Boston. So the snow is falling outside, and we go to a shot of Saint Elitis with the snow falling. But it's a weird shot because it seems to be shaking like it's in an earthquake. But it's not, is it, Brad? What exactly is happening?

Brad Shreve:
It is Tommy looking into a snow globe, which you don't really. They really don't show you that it's seen elsewhere in that snow globe in the beginning.

Tony Maietta:
Not until the very last shot.

Brad Shreve:
No, not until the very last shot. But there's this shake, and next thing you know, we're in this apartment, strange apartment, with Norman Lloyd reading the newspaper and Tommy Looking into a snow globe.

Tony Maietta:
But wait a minute. Didn't Norman Lloyd just die? Didn't Dr. Oshlander just die?

Brad Shreve:
Brad? He did. What is this weird twist?

Tony Maietta:
But then who comes in the door? Who comes in the door?

Brad Shreve:
It is construction worker Westfall. Donald Westphall, the construction worker, comes home to see how his father is taking care of his son.

Tony Maietta:
So are you telling me that this previous six years has just been a dream of an autistic child with a snow globe?

Brad Shreve:
Well, that certainly is what it's hinted at. Because they bring up like all he does every day is sit on the floor and doesn't say anything and just stares into that toy. And then they zoom in on the snow globe and there is St. Elsewhere.

Tony Maietta:
So what? So what? Donald says to Dr. Air Quotes, Dr. Oshlander, who's now his father, apparently.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I don't understand this autism thing, Pop. Here's my son. I talk to him. I don't even know if he can hear me because he sits there all day long in his own world, staring at that toy. What is he thinking about? Yeah, he's thinking about a hospital in Boston and all the things that have gone on in the past six years.

Brad Shreve:
Well, apparently that's what they're implying at the end. And the audience was real mixed in this. I think most of the audience was outraged.

Tony Maietta:
Really?

Brad Shreve:
And then there were those that thought it was absolutely brilliant. Where do you think I stand on that?

Tony Maietta:
I think you thought it was brilliant.

Brad Shreve:
I thought it was brilliant. As I said earlier, I do like to think that St. Elsore is still there. And it is. To me, I just say, you know what? The last five minutes of the final episode, the writers were having a good time. And God bless them, I'm glad they did because they did a damn good job.

Tony Maietta:
It's right up there with the Newhart finale, with Suzanne Pleshette being in, you know, Newhart's bed for the second series. It's a brilliant last little bit. I think it's brilliant. And here's what I think is brilliant about it. So what we have here is we have a fiction within a fiction. I mean, this is so crazy, you'll drive. It's crazy to try to think about the levels of unreality here, you know, because first of all, we're watching a TV show that's a fiction. And now we're just finding out that the story we've been seeing, which we've invested in for the past six years, is also a fiction.

Tony Maietta:
But not only that, with all the references to other TV shows that are insane elsewhere. It kind of beautifully comes together. It kind of dovetails because this kid obviously watches a lot of TV, so naturally he's gonna have a surgeon who's Dr. Brooks or Dr. Weinberger. He's gonna have MASH references. It is actually kind of. It's not kind of genius.

Tony Maietta:
It is genius. I really think it's genius.

Brad Shreve:
There are websites and videos dedicated to the Tommy Westfall universe.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes.

Brad Shreve:
If St. Elsewhere wasn't real, there are hundreds of shows tied to this that are not real. And some examples are Mary Taylor Moore's reference. So therefore Mary Tyler Moore and anything that branched off of Mary Tyler Moore did never happen. Cheers is obviously restaurant reference. So anything that was connected to the. What was that show with the Hot Brothers, anyway? The pilots.

Tony Maietta:
Wings.

Brad Shreve:
Wings. So that didn't exist. And other shows that they were connected with. These characters appeared on other TV shows playing themselves very quickly or other TV shows were referenced. One of the orderlies was a character on the TV series the White Shadow. Is that what was called the basketball series?

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes.

Brad Shreve:
Well, you find out that he was actually that character on that series.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And he sees a person, he goes, oh, Flounder or Slammy. The guy has. One of the other characters was Slammy, I guess. I don't know what you're talking about. So if you say all the shows that are connected, this one didn't exist. Tommy's. There are hundreds of shows that never existed, ever. I think that is.

Brad Shreve:
I think it's wonderful that people took the time. I'm like, I don't know where they had the time to do that, but I think it's wonderful and it's hysterical. And, you know, if people don't like it. I mean, some people don't like it because they're like, you took six years of our lives and now you're telling us it didn't happen. Well, you know what? Just. It's like, out of six years, it's five minutes. Just wipe it from your brain and get on with your life. Craig from the LA Times was angry.

Brad Shreve:
I read his critique on it the other day, and I'm like, even you. He felt like it was a. He felt like they ripped the rug out from viewers.

Tony Maietta:
So. But wait a minute, though. Does that mean that then the future appearances by some of these characters in shows like Homicide or in Scrubs is just Tommy Westfall dreaming some more? So we're all. We all just live in Tommy Westfall's world?

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely.

Tony Maietta:
That's it.

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely. In fact, there's actually another drama. Oh, in Oz.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
It's brought up in Oz that somebody went to St. Eligius or something like that. And there's some other TV shows that were the reference that a character went to St. Eligius Hospital. So people say dozens. There's actually hundreds. If you look at this. If you want to spend a lot, deep dive into these sites.

Tony Maietta:
I think it's amazing. I guess the best thing, the best.

Brad Shreve:
I think it was brilliant. I thought I just, when I watched it, I sat there with my mouth open. I'm like, oh my God, that is so smart. No, it is dawn on me to be angry.

Tony Maietta:
It's just genius. And the fact that we don't really understand it until the very last shot when he puts the snow globe down and then the camera goes in and we see it's Saint Allegiance. And you're like, wait, what?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, because you're like, what the is going on?

Tony Maietta:
I know, it's crazy. And all these other shows are affected by this. It's very, very funny. I guess the best thing about that is it means that Joe didn't really leave. Rhoda never really happened. They're still together in Tommy Westfall's mind.

Brad Shreve:
One of my favorites. And I don't know if you ever saw this episode. It was episode that had Betty White as a guest star.

Tony Maietta:
Same elsewhere.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, On St. Elsewhere. I can't remember. Jack something. The guy that played Mr. Carlin. Okay, these are. Okay, actually, this is.

Brad Shreve:
These are two separate ones. The guy played Mr. Carlin on the Bob Newhart Show.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
He is in the psych.

Tony Maietta:
Riley.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, Jack Riley. He is in the psych ward with the other guy that was the real timid guy with the curly shaggy hair. They're both in the psych ward playing just like they did on the Bob Newhart show. Mr. The Mr. Carlin character, Jack Riley, is just obnoxious and snide and he refers to the reason he's there because of the crazy doctor he had in Chicago. And there's another episode. It may have been the same one.

Brad Shreve:
I don't think so. Though I could be wrong. There was another episode where a character thought he was Mary Tyler Moore. I'm sorry, he thought he was Mary Richards.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes.

Brad Shreve:
And Betty White is a character. She has some kind of executive role. She's there visiting the hospital for some. I don't remember what it was. But he sees her and he goes, Sue Ann Nivens and she says, you obviously have me mistaken for someone else.

Tony Maietta:
I love that kind of stuff.

Brad Shreve:
It's very funny, that game all the.

Tony Maietta:
Time on that, you know, because that's so. But this is so early. That kind of stuff happens on shows all the time now, you know, and people don't. It's just. And St. Elsewhere did it first. Maybe not the exact first, but pretty damn close. I mean, this kind of stuff didn't happen.

Tony Maietta:
TV shows existed in their own realities. They did. Not usually. Unless they were, you know, all in the family and the Jeffersons and Maude. That's a different story. I'm not talking about spinoffs and things. I'm talking about, you know, it's. It was very rare for a TV show which was not the same company or the same producer or produced by the same production company to have another TV show character.

Tony Maietta:
You know, Archie Bunker could watch things on television. Maude watched the Mary Tyler Moore show. She, you know, shout out to Mary Tyler to Mary Richards. That's different. I'm talking about when characters would cross over and exist and do that kind of weird meta thing, which I think is kind of brilliant. I think. I think that's wonderful. I gotta tell you, though, because there was an episode of the Lucy's.

Tony Maietta:
Here's our Lucy moment. Had to have one. You know, there's an episode of the Lucy show in which William Frawley made his final appearance before he died, and he plays a stable hand, and Lucy's looking at racehorses with the countess, and he walks in and he yells for somebody and he walks away and. And Lucy looks at him and says, he reminds me of someone I used to know. Now, that's a brilliant bit. It's five seconds. Yes. It breaks the fourth wall.

Tony Maietta:
But please. It was a Lucy show. Who cares? It was still very funny. But that's unusual. And I think that St. Elsewhere was one of the first and did it brilliantly. Did it brilliantly. But that's not the last thing about this episode, Brad.

Tony Maietta:
There's one more thing. There's one more thing about it.

Brad Shreve:
Poor Mimsy.

Tony Maietta:
Rip. Mimsy. Mimsy. Tell people who Mimzy is, Brian, because you didn't know when we talked about Mary Tyler Moore.

Brad Shreve:
Mimzy is the MTM kitty cat that looks like the MGM lion who at the end of MTM episodes, goes meow. And what did Mimzy do throughout the entire series of St. Elsewhere?

Tony Maietta:
She was in Scrubs.

Brad Shreve:
Yep.

Tony Maietta:
She goes meow.

Brad Shreve:
She meowed through her Scrubs. But they did something different. On the final episode. So sad. Mimzy flatlined.

Tony Maietta:
It's just so cruel.

Brad Shreve:
And the sad thing is, Mimsy really died not long after that.

Tony Maietta:
She did. She did. But she was 20 years old. She was 20 years old. God bless that cat. She started back in the 70s with Mary Richards leaving Roseburg, and here she is all the way in Boston at Saint Elitis.

Brad Shreve:
And of all the poor. Of all the places for poor Mimsy to die.

Tony Maietta:
Now we have to. We have to give a warning, though, to people who watch this show on Hulu. That ending isn't in there, because I knew about this ending with Mimsy flatlining. And when I rewatched these episodes for this podcast, I couldn't wait. And it's not. It's still Mimsy and Scrubs. So for some reason, they took that out. I don't know why, because it's kind of a brilliant thing.

Brad Shreve:
But, yeah, there were other. I'm not gonna get into them because they weren't significant to the show. But there were other lines that I noticed were missing. Like, wait a minute, Somebody said something there. And I only. If had I not been so loyal to the show, I wouldn't have caught it. So it didn't change the storyline. But that Mimzy thing was a great touch.

Brad Shreve:
And why they would cut that out, I don't get.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I think that. I don't know why they. Hulu. Who knows? Hulu's. So the. This. I think I want to say about this. This episode, the last one, it brought in 22.5 million viewers, ranking seventh out of 68 programs that week.

Tony Maietta:
So you go saying elsewhere, finally cracking the top 10 for your last episode. And it ranks as the most obviously the most watched episode of this entire series. And again, TV guides ranking in 2011 of the most unforgettable episode, last episodes ever. This was number 12. Now, this was 2011. So, you know, we've had other. We've had more. And last episodes.

Tony Maietta:
But I'm sorry, I don't think the last episode of Modern Family is going to budge. The episode of St. Elsewhere. I mean, so I think they're pretty secure on number 12 for brilliant. Brilliant, last episodes. Unforgettable.

Brad Shreve:
Definitely not the show always. In fact, after watching these four episodes, I asked Marie says, do you want to watch these with me? He goes, no. We started watching the series for the first time for me, and we never finished it. So, no, I'm not going to pick four random episodes and watch. Which is. Which is fine, because that means we'll eventually get back to watching it again, because I would love to see it.

Tony Maietta:
Tell him not to listen to this podcast episode.

Brad Shreve:
No, no, I'm definitely not going to. He knows. Everybody in the world, I think, knows about the. The snow globe, Eden, even if they never.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, all kinds of. Yeah. Well, is there anything more. What more do we want to say about saying elsewhere, Brad, that we haven't.

Brad Shreve:
You know, I could go on and on about each individual character because there were some I loved, some I hated, some I, you know, some I just hated, but not in a good way. You know, Ed Begley, Jr's character, I absolutely despise the first run. I watch it now, and I have a warm spot for him. But his. His character was supposed to be unlikable, and they did a good job for me.

Tony Maietta:
I love Ed Begley. I know how close he was to Carrie Fiser, so that's kind of nice. That's. When I see Ed Begley, I like.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, yeah, he's great. And he. He turned out to be great. I think he. When I watch him now, I really liked his character and he actually was supposed to be walk on character also. They. They kind of expanded his character as well. So.

Brad Shreve:
No, other than, you know, if. If you've never seen this, and I'm sorry we gave a lot away if you've never seen it, but you should know better if you haven't seen this or you haven't seen a while, go back and watch it. It really. It's one of those shows that. Yeah, there's occasional references to that time, but for the most part it's timeless because it's all about human emotion and people doing the best they can under bad circumstances. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And I think it's important because in so many ways, it was first of so many things. It's. You were you so used to so many things now because shows like Saint Elsewhere did it first and became part of the very, very. Became part of every show afterwards. So it's. It's an important series. Thank you for suggesting it. I really enjoyed going back and revisiting it and learning more about it, because as I said, it really isn't in my immediate grasp of knowledge for some reason of my 80s shows, because like I said, I was in college, in high school, I was doing other things.

Tony Maietta:
Things. But I'm glad I went back.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I do want to give you one thing. This is not related to seeing elsewhere, but it's something I heard yesterday, I learned yesterday. You're always saying that studio executives don't know anything.

Tony Maietta:
Right? Pretty true.

Brad Shreve:
I found a real life example of that. I've never seen the series, but Police Squad, the TV series, yeah, they spun off eventually. The Naked Gun, the Zucker Brothers and Abrams wanted to do something similar to that and they ended up giving it the same, making it the same storyline. The Naked Gown went on to make billions of dollars. Police Squad series, which was only six episodes, and I. I can't say whether it was good or bad because I've never seen a single episode of it. But the reason it was only six episodes is the head of ABC said this show is not going to make it. People have to pay attention to get the jokes.

Brad Shreve:
But.

Tony Maietta:
Up there with Mike Dan programming Mary after Hee Haw. Yeah, there you go. Way to go, executives. Way to go.

Brad Shreve:
They have to pay attention. It's never going to make it. I thought of you the minute I heard that. So, yes, that's it.

Tony Maietta:
What more do we want to say about the show or the podcast?

Brad Shreve:
Well, the thing I'm going to say about the podcast is welcome if this is your first time listening or you're new to us and please subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. If you've been listening to us for a while, we beg and plead. And if you don't do it, you're a jerk. No, I'm kidding. We all have busy lives, but if you could please take the time to rate and review us, it only takes a minute and we would really appreciate it.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, we're not characters in some snow globe either. We're out there making it work every day, so we're real. Well, Brad, I guess then there's only one thing left to say. But I don't want to say it. So let's not say goodbye. Let's just say au revoir.

Brad Shreve:
Well, before I flatline. No, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
That's all, folks.