Lucille Ball:
Oh, boy, Ricky, what are you gonna do with all that time off? Oh, don't worry about that.

Desi Arnaz:
I should say not. Fred and I are going to see the fights Wednesday night. On Thursday night I got a poker game, and some of the boys are lining up a hunting trip for the rest of the week.

Lucille Ball:
Oh, haven't you forgotten something, dear?

Desi Arnaz:
No.

Lucille Ball:
Are you sure?

Desi Arnaz:
Mm.

Lucille Ball:
Well, I hate to tell you this, but the Lucy Ricardo Travel Bureau has made other reservations for you.

Desi Arnaz:
Such as what?

Lucille Ball:
I can arrange for you to spend seven glorious days at 623 E. 68th St. The cuisine is wonderful, the rates are reasonable, and we have facilities for all the popular sports, such as vacuuming, washing dishes, hanging diapers out to dry. Now, Lucy, besides, there's a gentleman who lives in this neighborhood who's just dying to meet you. He's heard a lot about you, and I think it's high time you two got together.

Desi Arnaz:
Who's that?

Lucille Ball:
His name is Ricky Ricardo, jr. You mean Little Ricky? Oh, then you have heard of him.

Desi Arnaz:
Now, look, I don't want to start any. Now, just a minute. Nobody has to go anyplace. There's not going to be any arguments. Lucy's absolutely right.

Lucille Ball:
Oh, yeah, I am?

Desi Arnaz:
Yes, you are. I'm gonna cancel everything and stay right here at home with my child.

Lucille Ball:
It's a boy, you know.

Desi Arnaz:
I've heard it.

Lucille Ball:
Isn't that wonderful? Sit down, you two. Aww, honey, that's just great.

Todd Purdam:
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Todd Purdam:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions, too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood. Welcome, everybody, to a very special episode of Going Hollywood. I always say that. Did you notice that? I always say this is a special ep. They're all special to me.

Brad Shreve:
They're all special. Yes, they are.

Tony Maietta:
They are. But this one is special for a unique reason, and that's because. Why is that, Brad? Why is this a unique special episode?

Brad Shreve:
Because we have an incredible guest. All our guests are wonderful. And we have another one.

Tony Maietta:
We haven't had guests, though. This is our first guest of our second season. This is our first guest season.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, that is true.

Tony Maietta:
And we've saved a very special one to inaugurate that. It is none other than Todd S. Purdom, who just wrote a fantastic book. First of all, he's a journalist. He's written books on politics. He's written books on show business. He wrote a book on Rodgers and Hammerste, I love, called Something Wonderful. He just wrote a book that just came out called Drum roll, Please.

Tony Maietta:
Desi Arnaz, the Man who Invented Television. And as you can imagine, when I saw that, I almost fell over. I think I did fall over because I was so excited.

Brad Shreve:
Well, of course.

Tony Maietta:
Of course.

Brad Shreve:
You're like Mr. Lucille Ball and anything that has to do with her.

Tony Maietta:
Well, do you remember, though, Brad, when way back when I was very first on Queer We Are, and I went off on my Desi Arnaz tangent and I said, I'm sorry, that was a Desi Arnaz tangent. But I had to get it in there. Remember that?

Brad Shreve:
Yes, I do.

Tony Maietta:
Well, see, so that's why I was so excited, because I've always been like, Desii, Dessi, Dessi, so important, so important. And everybody always goes, lucy, Lucy, Lucy. I love Lucy, obviously. But I love the fact that Todd has now put this in book form and there's this fabulous book out there. So please, ladies and gentlemen, stay tuned for Todd, because we're doing this kind of differently than we usually do. We are going to bring Todd on for the second half of this episode. For the first half of this episode. What are we gonna do, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Well, Tony's gonna give you all the technical side because I did not look any of it up, because we watched this episode and I was just engrossed in it and I didn't even think about doing anything else. So we'll be talking about the episode, but the rest is on you. And we are gonna talk about an episode of I Love Lucy that I don't recall any ever seen. And I know I must have. I've seen all these, like, Everybody our age 60 times on reruns.

Tony Maietta:
So you've never seen this?

Brad Shreve:
I. I probably did. I didn't remember it at all.

Tony Maietta:
Well, here's. Here's the thing. Here's what I wanted to do. So for the. I wanted to highlight in the first half of this episode, Desi Arnaz, the incredibly underrated performer and comic actor. And in the second part, I wanted to talk about the man himself and his phenomenal impact on television. So the episode we're going to talk about is from season three. It's called Ricky Minds the Baby.

Tony Maietta:
It's episode number 80. And just for context, this series, they're just starting their third. Or they're maybe halfway through their third season at this point, and they've Already done. They've already done 80 episodes. So just think about that for a minute. Those were the times with three writers. Three writers writing every single episode.

Brad Shreve:
So Nowadays, in the third season, if they have 30 episodes, that would be.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, my God. Yeah. So many shows don't even make 80. And this was their third season, so it's season three. It aired January 18, 1954, ironically, one day before Desi Jr. Slash, Little Ricky's first birthday, which is kind of interesting. So this Little Ricky's, like, almost a year old, technically, you know, figuratively written again by Bob Carroll Jr. And Madeline Pugh and directed by William Asher, who was the director of the series at this point.

Tony Maietta:
So as I said, the reason I wanted to do this episode and I said, brad, please watch this episode, is because I think more than any other in the series, it highlights the comic gifts of Dessi Arnaz. You know, he has. There's other. Other episodes he's in Job switching the Candy Factory episode. He has a wonderful little scene where he and Fred are making rice because they're gonna make a Roscompoyo and the rice goes all over the place. They put in, like, two pounds or something like that. And it's very funny. It's very funny.

Tony Maietta:
But I think this episode is so unusual in the I Love Lucy cannon in that it really highlights Desi Arnaz as a performer like no other episode.

Brad Shreve:
Well, you wanna hear my take on it? Because I said I was engrossed.

Tony Maietta:
Do we wanna do a plot first and then you tell us your take on it, or do you wanna just tell us your take on it?

Brad Shreve:
No, I'm just gonna get it out there.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. Get it out there.

Brad Shreve:
I was engrossed and didn't think about looking up anything else because I just was stunned at how bad an I Love Lucy episode.

Tony Maietta:
Can you.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, my God, Brad, I am joking. This was absolutely delightful.

Tony Maietta:
I was like, we're gonna have a special guest on.

Brad Shreve:
I know, I know. I sat here and I thought, why didn't we get more of this? It made me angry because I'm like, he is so damn good. I would have loved to see more of Ricky in this.

Tony Maietta:
We need to take a break. As my blood pressure returns.

Brad Shreve:
I had to do that to you.

Tony Maietta:
He always fakes me out.

Brad Shreve:
I couldn't research.

Tony Maietta:
He always faked me out. Well, at least it wasn't directed by George Stephens. So I had a pretty good idea you'd like it. Oh, good. I'm glad. Yeah, exactly. Right? Isn't he wonderful? He's so wonderful in this episode.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. He's just, you know, the beginning of the episode started with the typical Ricky, Fred being the men talking about boxing. They really had to emphasize all the time that they were men's men. And.

Tony Maietta:
Machismo. Machismo, yes.

Brad Shreve:
And then we get to Ricky entertaining his son. Oh, my God, it was so sweet and so funny. And, you know, back then, somebody speaking Spanish like that was not common. And it was part of the joke, but it wasn't the butt of the joke. The butt of joke was his. His mannerisms and the way he told it, his Spanglish. And it just. It endeared me to.

Brad Shreve:
I've never been. I've never disliked Ricky, but I've respected him. But I was just like, you know, I wish they. They did more with him. And this was. This showed me what I wish they had done more of. Now, not all the time, because he was the straight man most of the time, but I would have liked more touches like this because I. I just.

Brad Shreve:
I really enjoyed it. I laughed and laughed.

Tony Maietta:
I think it's one of the few. The very, very few times in this series, maybe the only time that Desi Arnaz is actually funnier than Lucille Ball. I really, really do. It was designed that way. It's not. Lucy didn't do anything wrong. Lucy has a wonderful little scene which we'll talk about, but it was designed to highlight Desi and, like, as I said, like no other. You know, he gets such short shrift as.

Tony Maietta:
Not only as the pioneer he was, which Todd will talk about with us, but the really talented performer he was. He was a very. He wasn't just a, you know, a typical straight man. He was a very funny. If the show wouldn't have worked, if he wasn't good, it just wouldn't have. It's that interplay between them. He is at her level, and I love that about the show. I also love the fact you talk about the Spanglish.

Tony Maietta:
And I don't know if you ever noticed this, but the writers designed it to. The only person who could ever make fun of Ricky's English was Lucy, because the audience would never accept anybody else. That's how much they loved it. But it's okay for Lucy to do it, but nobody else could do it, which, you know, she did brilliantly. She did brilliantly. Well, I'm so excited that you loved it. Let's talk about it. So the plot of the episode is very simple.

Tony Maietta:
The Tropicana is being painted and Ricky has The week off. A fact that he neglected to tell Lucy. Why didn't you tell me you had a week. It's very funny little scene. And he plans this whole week of golf, of hunting, of going to the fights, all this machismo stuff, until Lucy says, no, I think you should stay. I have an exact wonderful place for you to go. It's called 623 E. 68th St.

Tony Maietta:
And you should Introduces her, introduces him to his son. So she's saying, you know what? Spend some time with your son, muchacho. He needs it. And Ricky agrees, and that's what's so wonderful about it. So it's basically Ricky watching Little Ricky in this episode.

Brad Shreve:
And that's actually where you knew this was different because there was no argument.

Tony Maietta:
No.

Brad Shreve:
She said, you need to do this. And he's like, yeah, you're right.

Tony Maietta:
You're absolutely right.

Brad Shreve:
That alone was touching and a nice change of pace.

Tony Maietta:
It was. He didn't give her an argument. He's like, no, I want to do that. He's like, you're absolutely right. I need to spend time with my son. And that's what the episode's about. So some of the interesting things about this episode, I don't know if you noticed this, Brad and I didn't really notice this. I knew it.

Tony Maietta:
But then I rewatching it, I had forgotten. And then I was like, oh, that's right. This episode was filmed without a live studio audience because of the heavy involvement of the twins playing Little Ricky at this time. They were Joseph and Michael Mayer, and they played Little Ricky until Richard Keith, who was born Keith Thibodeau, but he's billed as Richard Keith in the series until Keith Thibodeau took over in 1956. So if you notice in the episode, if you're watching it, there's a lot of times where there's no sound or the sound is put over because the baby is clearly crying, but they can't have Little Ricky crying at this specific point. So it was shot without an audience. It was later shown to an audience for air quotes, live responses, as Carol o' Connor always used to say at the end of all in the Family. So I thought, that's interesting.

Tony Maietta:
It was shot without an audience, but I really couldn't, other than hearing Lucy's mother's laugh, which is a frequent laugh in I Love Lucy, because she was at every episode. And you also hear the. I wouldn't have thought this was a. It seemed to me like there was a studio audience there.

Brad Shreve:
Did you notice that No, I didn't notice it. I don't recall the. Oh, woman.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, well, she knows she's in it. That's Lucy's mother. That's Dee Dee.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, is that Lucy's mother?

Tony Maietta:
That's Dee Dee, yeah. And it's funny because Dee Dee will show up in the Andy Griffith show laugh track. Really? She will. Because Desi Liu. And so, yeah, they had recordings of it.

Brad Shreve:
I never knew that was her mother.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, that's Lucy's mother. I mean, that's what story I've always heard, and I've always read that. That's Lucy's mother.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah, See?

Brad Shreve:
And I always heard it was just a mysterious woman and nobody knew who the old woman was. But yours sounds more reasonable because obviously she was there all the time.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. And that might be a tall tale just to cover the fact that. Was there a laugh track? Was the laugh track sweetened? Was there a real. You know what I mean? So that might be a tall tale, but I. I'm going with that story. I'm going with that story. So, yeah, so it was shot without an audience, which is unusual for this show. Very unusual for the show, but they did it for a practical reason.

Tony Maietta:
So the episode begins as all I Love Lucy episodes, two parts. And the piece de resistance, I feel, of the first part of the episode is what's the. What's the big. What's the big event of the first part of the episode? Ricky decides he's gonna watch Little Ricky and he's gonna start right now. And Lucy goes. Right now. Lucy's about to put him to bed. And what does Ricky want to do?

Brad Shreve:
He tells us children's story that we all know and love. And what is it called, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
In English, it is a Little Red Riding Hood, but Ricky says, I'm going to. And that's Little Ricky's favorite bedtime. He says, what's her. His favorite bedtime story? And Lucy says, he loves Little Red Riding Hood. He goes, oh, yes. Caposita roja. They're all like, what? And they're like, we gotta watch this. We gotta watch Ricky perform Capucita roja to Little Ricky in the bedroom.

Tony Maietta:
And that's the piece de resistance is Desi Arnaz's brilliant telling of Little Red Riding Hood in a mixture of Spanish and English. I mean, it's. It's Spanglish, basically, is what it is. A lot more Spanish, though.

Brad Shreve:
And it didn't seem. It seemed real. It didn't seem like, I'm gonna put on a performance here.

Tony Maietta:
No, right. Like he was telling his kid a bedtime story.

Brad Shreve:
Funny for the kid.

Tony Maietta:
And that sort of thing really did seem like he was telling his son a bedtime story. It wasn't any big. Now we're going to perform. And I think that's one of the most charming things about it.

Brad Shreve:
Well, and especially because it was told the same way that I always was told by my mother and father. And that is in her basket, she always had frijoles, tortillas and wine, just like I always grew up.

Tony Maietta:
She's like, whenever you're visiting your grandmother, I'm going to bring her some frijoles, tortillas and a bottle of vin. I love that. Because why? Because Grandmama esta feeling lousy.

Brad Shreve:
And you know what else really jumped out at me that I found hysterical? You know, a lot of people nowadays think, well, that's kind of disturbing that, you know, the wolf ate the grandmother.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Well, he. He didn't just say she. He ate the grandmother. He relished, acted out pantomime. She ordered a piece of meat.

Tony Maietta:
Not bad, not bad. He did it with Rel. Wipes his mouth and goes, not bad, not bad. So funny. Senor Lobo, Senior Lobo with the. With the teeth. And it's so. It's so funny.

Tony Maietta:
You know, Desi Arnaz, when he was doing this, obviously was scripted, but he got mixed up a couple times, and one time near the end, he says, gracias, Senor Lobo, when he should have said, gracias, Senor Hunter. So he got a little mixed up, but it doesn't matter because it's so charming. It's so funny. It's just a wonderful, wonderful little bit. And he does it so well. It's a. It's a. It's.

Tony Maietta:
It's a tour de force for. For desert. I love it. I love it. Did you notice, by any chance the shots of Little Ricky, which were obviously inserts, because that kid was not happy? No, no.

Brad Shreve:
He.

Tony Maietta:
Many times he was looking straight at.

Brad Shreve:
A camera, making those smiles because nobody. I don't think anybody was around.

Tony Maietta:
But if you notice in this cribs, the inserts of the crib, did you notice the little figurines of Lucy and Desi figurines on his. On his pillow, by any chance?

Brad Shreve:
I kept thinking that was them. Is that. Are those the ones that they used in the first season at the opening?

Tony Maietta:
Because. Well, yeah, it's when they use all the openings, because at this point, they were merchandising. You know what I mean? There Was.

Brad Shreve:
There were.

Tony Maietta:
When Little Ricky. No, no, no. They were producing product. I Love Lucy product, I Love Lucy pajamas, I Love Lucy bathwear. And they had a baby after Little Ricky was born. They had a merchandising. They were merchandising at this point, and they had little thing. Little st.

Tony Maietta:
You know, things for. For babies. So I think it's funny. It's one of the. These people knew what they were doing, I'm telling you right now.

Brad Shreve:
I think it's funny that. I'm glad you clarified it for me, because I kept thinking, wow, that really looks like them. And I just assumed it wasn't like.

Tony Maietta:
It just looked like them, it was them. So it was like, subliminally, go buy your I Love Lucy baby. Wear your baby products. They're out there. They're out there. So that's wonderful product placement. Yes, yes. So that is a lot of fun.

Tony Maietta:
There's also a very cute bit that Lucy. Lucy has one bit. Yes. And Ricky tells Lucy that she can sleep in for the first time since Little Ricky's been born. She can sleep as late as she likes to. And of course, she wakes up at, like, 20 to 7, and she. It's a silent bit of Lucy going back and forth to the kitchen, thinking that Ricky forgot Little Ricky's bib or his little robe. And she's getting up and down and up and down.

Tony Maietta:
And at the end, Desi walks in with Little Ricky and says, shh, don't wake up Mommy. She's having the very. The first good sleep in a long time. And of course, she's not. She's been up and down because she's a mother. So it's a cute. It's cute. Lucy's wonderful in it.

Tony Maietta:
Again, it's silent bit. But what I thought was interesting was. Did you notice the camera shows the entire set like it's a play? There's no. It totally breaks the fourth wall. And you. You go from bedroom to living room to kitchen to living. I love that. In fact, when we're watching it, Michael's like, oh, look, they're breaking the fourth wall.

Tony Maietta:
I'm like, well, yeah, it's a play. It was shot like a play, and in the play, there's no fourth wall. So I don't think it affects the episode at all. I think it's, you know, you just suspend your disbelief with that.

Brad Shreve:
No, And I don't think it affected it at all in any way. And this is gonna sound like a complaint. It's not. Because when I'm done You'll see. I was slightly irritated with that scene. And I normally would have thought was funny. Would have thought was very funny, but I kept thinking, get to Desi. Get to Desi.

Brad Shreve:
We see you all the time, Lucy. Desi was funny. I want to see more of Desi and Ricky together.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, well, it's Lucille Ball. You have to give her a bit.

Brad Shreve:
I know, I know. The show is named after her, so.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, absolutely. But Desi's the eye and I love Lucy, so.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, that is true.

Tony Maietta:
That's how he got top billing. So, anyway, so the second part of the episode, Ricky is watching the baby, and of course, he gets distracted by the game. First of all, I love when he says he's going to spend time with Little Ricky. And what are they going to do? They're going. They're going to go play some ball. I mean, you know, the machismo thing. It's not like I'm going to spend time with you in the park. We're going to go do this.

Tony Maietta:
We're going to go to the fight. Desi. Ricky gets distracted by the game and accidentally leaves the apartment door open.

Todd Purdam:
And.

Tony Maietta:
And guess what happens? Little Ricky wanders out, and where does he end up, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
He wanders down or down the hall to Fred and Ethel's apartment just when.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy opens up the door. Cause Lucy has been worrying about leaving Little Ricky, and she's like, no, let's go shopping. Ethel goes, let's go shopping, girl. Come on and get your mind off it. Everything's fine. And of course, she opens the door, and there's Little Ricky all by himself in the hallway of a New York apartment building. So rather than confront Ricky, of course Lucy has to teach him a lesson. So she calls Ricky to ask how Little Ricky is.

Tony Maietta:
And of course, Big Ricky gets frantic because he can't find Little Ricky. And Lucy shows up, you know, says, let me see the sun. And Ricky's like, oh, the baby's sleeping. The baby's sleeping. I'll wait. So she's sitting there waiting, and while she's waiting, Fred goes running to his apartment to call the police, which is kind of silly, but okay, plot point. And sees Little Ricky there. He takes Little Ricky back and sneaks him behind Lucy and Ricky and puts him back in his crib, at which point Ethel comes running in, going, lucy, Lucy, Ricky's.

Tony Maietta:
Little Ricky's gone. He's gone. And they all run into the bedroom, and there he is in his crib, just like Big Ricky said he was. But Big Ricky's confused because they know he wasn't there. And Lucy and Ethel are confused because they knew he was over at their apartment. And the only one who's not confused is Fred. Fred comes in and goes, oh, there he is. Hi, Little Ricky.

Tony Maietta:
And that's how the episode ends.

Brad Shreve:
And I really like that ending, too, because it was different. Usually the ending is some kind of big fight, and then they all love each other at the end. And this one, they're just like, what the hell just happened?

Tony Maietta:
And that's how it ended.

Brad Shreve:
And I really liked it. It was. This was a very different episode, but it was still an I Love Lucy episode.

Tony Maietta:
It was a real nice. It's a nice change of pace. It was a very nice change of pace. I think for once, Lucy wasn't trying to get into the act. And, you know, it was. It was about Ricky. It was about their family life, their home life. You know, that's what's wonderful about I Love Lucy.

Tony Maietta:
It's about real life, things happening. It's about a baby, it's about raising a family. It's about all this stuff, and I love it. I do want to point out two little things, if you notice. I think it's so funny how whenever Fred. Now Fred is the landlord, Fred doesn't do it. A job. He doesn't go to a job.

Tony Maietta:
But whenever he's hanging around the apartment, almost always he's in a suit and tie. I never understood that. Yeah, it's like, Fred, what do you. What do you do? Why? Maybe he had to go downtown. Maybe, you know, he has to go downtown or go to the bank. Maybe he had an appointment. But I always think it's funny how William Frawley is always in a suit and tie, even though Desi is not. William Frawley's in a suit and tie.

Brad Shreve:
Maybe it was rent day and he likes to look professional.

Tony Maietta:
Maybe collection checks. I don't think they want him to look like a bum. They like, fred can't be a bum. So he's always in a suit and tie. You know, a different era. That's how people dress. I miss it. It's just like Ethel had to go and change before they went shopping.

Tony Maietta:
You know, what she was wearing wasn't good enough to go shopping, so she had to go change. And I also love the fact. Did you. Do you ever notice this? And this is. Do you notice the. Desi's heels and his shoes. His shoes are featured prominently in this because he's tapping his feet. Do you ever.

Tony Maietta:
Did you notice the lifts In Desi shoes.

Brad Shreve:
No, no.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. It's funny because Desi Arnaz was, you know, 5 foot 9, 5 foot 10. He wasn't a short guy, but Lucille, lucille balls was 5 foot 7. So when she had heels on, there was always the chance that she would tower over him or pretty close. And Desi was very self conscious about that. So he would usually, whenever Lucy Ricardo is in heels, look for Desi Arnaz's heels and he'll have lifts, which is just very interesting. And you know, after they split up and she did the Lucy show, she didn't have to worry about it anymore, so she wore heels a lot more. But anyway, yes, that was a lot of fun.

Tony Maietta:
That is our. That's our episode of I Love Lucy. Ricky minds the baby.

Brad Shreve:
And let me tell you a couple things that I realized in this episode. First of all, they're kind of continuity things that bothered me. And you know how I get kind of technical on that sometimes. First, it always bothered me that they have to go through their bedroom to get to Ricky's room. And you know, Maurice and I are now looking at very old homes. And I'd forgotten because I knew some people that lived in old several hundred year old farmhouses and stuff. And that was very common in older buildings to get from one bedroom to the next. So for the first time I'm like, oh, that makes sense.

Brad Shreve:
So that doesn't bother me anymore. The other thing that has always. Well, there's actually two other things that have bugged me. One, one I've never seen Result, but one is where do Fred and Ethel live? Because at least during the first season, it was implied and I think outright said that they lived downstairs.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that was a different apartment though. Remember? They moved. Yeah. Okay.

Brad Shreve:
Ricky and Lucy lived on the fourth floor.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And it was implied that Fred Nethel lived downstairs. But also before they ever moved, it was also implied that they were neighbors. Yeah, they were on the same floor. So then Ricky and Lucy get the nicer apartment, move down to the third floor. Fred Nathal's apartment doesn't change in any way, shape or form, and they're down the hall again. So I looked it up and I had to do a little research to say, where did they live? And the simple answer was they lived wherever the writers wanted them to live.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
I accepted that whatever worked at that particular moment.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I think you have some Lucy fans on your ass here, Brad, because yes, in the first season they are above the Mertzes because when they're trying to Break their lease. In a very early episode of I Love Lucy, they're stomping up and down because the Mertzes are apparently directly below them. And then they move down to 3D. Apartment 3D. And they're on the same floor as the Mertzes. However, the location of the apartment changes. Sometimes you can look out Lucy's window and see the Mertzes. Sometimes you can't.

Tony Maietta:
The thing that always drove me crazy about this set, which. I love this set, by the way, the set with the window in the living room is. The window in the bedroom looks onto a wall. It makes. And it's not even like, oh, that might be kind of tricky. No, it's obviously looking onto the wall in the hallway to get to the bedroom. It's very funny.

Brad Shreve:
Well, you also notice this is, I think, the first time I noticed it, you presume in the original apartment that the windows were on the fourth wall. I hope to God they had one windows in that room.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, they did.

Brad Shreve:
They did in this one. The window's on the back wall. And this is the set I liked much better. But they very frequently go out into the hall and turn left.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Sometimes there's a stairway there, you know, and you're like, wait a minute, isn't that where the window is? How's there.

Brad Shreve:
I guess there's just a. Like a travel poster behind that glass. I don't know. The third thing that's always driven me crazy, and this has never been explained. It doesn't bother me. I just think it's funny because it's kind of ludicrous.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Is Ricky's work hours. He's always practicing during the day. He works at a club at night, yet he always seems he's there for breakfast and dinners. Just like.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it changes a lot. Sometimes he comes home at 3am, sometimes he's there for dinner with the Mertzes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. So it's one of those things that doesn't bother me. I just find it funny.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it's funny. You know, the. That's so funny. Yeah. Whatever the writers thought. I mean, this show usually is very good with continuity, but. Yeah, there are things.

Brad Shreve:
I agree.

Tony Maietta:
There are some things which. Which, you know, the apartment. I mean, as a kid I was obsessed with floor plans, and I used to draw floor plans of all these. Of their Connecticut home, of the. Of both apartments. And it is really frustrating because you're like, okay, wait a minute, is this a bathroom or is this a bedroom or Is this a closet? You know, and then when Ricky, Little Ricky grows up, suddenly that nursery becomes a much bigger room and they're like. So little Ricky has to go through his parents room to go to his own. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
So yeah, it's, it's. And the people that Lucy and Ricky got the apartment from allegedly had a grown daughter who slept in that room. So this grown daughter had to sleep in the room Right. Through a parent in Mason.

Brad Shreve:
No, actually does that, that does happen. I don't know how much in New York. Really very common. It's very competent farm homes. It's very common in European homes where they're old and they had to find space somewhere.

Tony Maietta:
No wonder she got married and got the hell out.

Brad Shreve:
I knew family actually very wealthy and they never got around to changing it. They had a farmhouse where you walk through one bedroom to get to the next bedroom to get to the next bedroom. And I kept, they kept thinking they were going to change it and they never got around to it.

Lucille Ball:
It.

Tony Maietta:
It's bedrooms.

Todd Purdam:
It seems odd.

Tony Maietta:
Seems odd, yes.

Brad Shreve:
The other thing about that window, it just dawned on me is the Superman episode, you know, we're talking about, they turn left on that hallway. The Superman episode when Lucy gets out on that ledge. Where was this ledge?

Tony Maietta:
Exactly, exactly.

Brad Shreve:
It doesn't feel.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy's gone.

Brad Shreve:
Very oddly shaped building.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy goes out on that ledge a couple, in a couple episodes, you know, and you're like, sometimes there's a wall there with the apartment. You know, she crawls through that apartment to get onto the ledge for Superman and then the. That apartment's not there when she's out in the ledge for another episode. Yeah, it's just, it's just funny. It's just a sitcom. It's a sitcom, so. But yes, that is Ricky Minds the Baby, a wonderful episode which highlights Desi Arnaz. But don't go anywhere, ladies and gentlemen, because we're going to take a brief pause for station identification.

Tony Maietta:
And when we come back, we will talk with Todd S. Purdom about Desi Arnaz, the pioneer in television history. And also about his fabulous book, brand new book, Desi Arnaz, the man who invented television.

Lucille Ball:
Now then, there's another character in our show. His name escapes me at the moment, but this guy who seems to be in all places at once making like an actor, a banker, a politician, in short, a producer. Gets my vote as the greatest producer of all time. And I have two little Arnaz's at home to prove it. Desi, I love you. Signed Lucy.

Desi Arnaz:
Thank you, sweetheart. Thank you, Ed. Thank you. Thank you very, very much, ladies and gentlemen. You know, I think if it wouldn't have been for Lucy, I would have stopped trying a long time ago because I was always the guy that didn't fit. When she did My Favorite Husband on the radio, they said that I wasn't the type to play the part. Then finally she wanted to do the television show, and she says, well, I want to do it with Desi. So everybody again said, well, he doesn't.

Desi Arnaz:
He's not right to play your husband. Finally, one executive at CBS says, well, maybe the audience would buy him, because after all, they have been married for 13 years. And you know something, though, that I really want to tell you tonight. What Tess Tex o' Rourke said about my first job in this country was cleaning birdcages. It's very true. We came to this country and we didn't have a century in our pockets. From cleaning canary cages to this night here in New York. It's a long ways, and I don't think there's any other country in the world that could give you that opportunity.

Desi Arnaz:
I want to say thank you. Thank you, America. Thank you.

Tony Maietta:
Hey, everybody. So we are back with a very special guest. I am so excited to have Todd S. Purdom on the podcast with us. Isn't that amazing, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
It is amazing, and it's a pleasure to meet you, Todd. Welcome.

Todd Purdam:
Delighted to be here. Thank you, Todd.

Tony Maietta:
For those of you who don't know, I don't know how you can't know this. Todd is a wonderful author, journalist. He's written two of my favorite books, one of which is called Something Wonderful, which is Something Wonderful, Todd, by the way, it's Rodgers and Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution and Desi Arnaz, the Man who Invented Television, which is a wonderful, wonderful book. We are so excited to have you on here. Todd. Thanks so much for taking the time to come talk to us here on Going.

Todd Purdam:
Oh, I'm very grateful to be here, Tony. Thanks so much, you and Brad for having me.

Tony Maietta:
So it comes as no surprise to our listeners and to Brad that we've actually inaugurated a Lucy moment on this podcast, Todd, because I reference Lucille Ball.

Brad Shreve:
So much, no matter what we talk about, she comes up.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, Lucy's always somewhere in the background. But I gotta ask you a question that I know the answer to, but maybe Brad doesn't or our audience doesn't. You just wrote. You've written political articles, political books. You did the wonderful Rodgers and Hammerstein book, why Desi Arnaz at this particular time?

Todd Purdam:
Well, it's a good question. In most of my career, as you say, I've covered politics. But during my time, especially at the New York Times and also at Vanity Fair, whenever I could, I scratched my itch of interest in pop culture, which has always been an enduring interest of mine. And in 2020, I was involuntarily liberated from my job at the Atlantic, and I was looking for a project. And I reached out to several friends whose judgment I trusted. And one of them, a college friend, the late Doug McGrath, actor, playwright, director, suggested Desi because he'd always been an I Love Lucy fan, and he loved both Lucy and Desi. But he thought Desi had gotten short shrift in history and in the credit he deserved for being, you know, kind of the engine behind the show. And the more I looked into that, the more I was persuaded that that was, in fact, true.

Todd Purdam:
And in 2020, which is when I first began pursuing this project, you'll remember that we were in a national moment of re examining lives that might have not gotten the credit they deserved in their own day. The New York Times was running that series of retroactive obituaries of people who had been overlooked. And I thought that Desi's story might land in the culture in an appreciated. In an appreciated way. And I'm really glad that that's turned out to be the case. And a lot of people seem to be very interested in hearing more about somebody that they felt they already knew.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah, congratulations on the success of the book. It's wonderful.

Brad Shreve:
It's a good time to ask a question I had planned to ask you, and that is, Desi proved himself to be a genius when it came to the business side of entertainment. It doesn't seem like he was ever bothered that he was overshadowed by Lucy at all.

Todd Purdam:
He certainly wasn't bothered by being overshadowed by Lucy in the sense that he knew that it was her genius that made the show what it was. He. He. Late in his life, he was asked to apportion success, and he said, give, you know, 90% of the credit to Lucy. There's a. There's a moment when she tripped over a cable on the soundstage one day, and he told his colleagues, you know, watch out. And he goes, anything happens to her, we're all in the shrimp business. But he did resent that Hollywood didn't give him the credit that he felt he deserved.

Todd Purdam:
And that came out in 1980, 1976, when he wrote his memoir. And he took credit. He took Probably a little too much credit to try to rebalance the scales. And he did not, like early in their marriage, when Lucy's career was bigger than his in some ways. You know, that valet parkers might greet him as Mr. Ball or, or, you know, assume that he was just an appendage to Lucy, but he never resented her tremendous skill. And likewise, she was always the first to credit him and his ingenuity and energy and vision for getting the show on the air to the end of her days. She was always the first to give him credit.

Todd Purdam:
Even after their divorce and even despite, you know, some tough times between them, she never, ever gave him short shrift.

Tony Maietta:
I think that's one of the most remarkable things about that relationship, that love story. The fact that the love never really died. Two people who loved each other but just could no longer be together. The fact that even during the toughest times, she was always the first one to his defense. You talk in your book about the Ed Sullivan roast. Not really a roast. The Ed Sullivan tribute to Desi at the very beginning of your book. And her very touching but very simple tribute to him as a great producer because she has two little Arnaz's to prove it, which I love.

Tony Maietta:
I think that's. I think it's. It's remarkable, the love story, the fact that he was such a pioneer that is so frequently overlooked. So I think. Thank you.

Todd Purdam:
Well, they. They always had a tremendous connection and it's what drew them together in the first place and it's what made the show powerful because I think the audience could understand that they were meta before the term meta came into being in terms of like their real life relationship blended over into the show and the show boomerang back onto their real life. And people felt because of the intimacy of television that they really knew them. But I think it's also quite obvious when you see this show that there was a real spark of physical attraction between them and. And you know that that never went away.

Tony Maietta:
No, it never did.

Brad Shreve:
As Tony mentioned, it's. They had such a rocky relationship. It's so interesting how well they stay connected. I think of that video that well known of them in the pool with their kids together long after their divorce. And they're having a great time with the grandchildren.

Tony Maietta:
With Simon.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. Oh, the grandchildren, yes.

Todd Purdam:
And Lucy. Lucy's pool.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. That's amazing. Well, didn't Lucy Arnaz, that is, say they did divorce extremely well?

Todd Purdam:
Yes. No, I think that the tension went out of their marriage. They could focus on their mutual interests. Their children. Lucy relied on Desi for business advice. He always sent her flowers on her birthday, their anniversary. So they loved each other. They just couldn't be together.

Todd Purdam:
And then you have to lay, you know, much of the blame for that, most of the blame for that at his door because he was really faithful only in his fashion. And he felt that his, you know, sexual indiscretions, mostly with prostitutes, should not count against him in the marriage. And, and he had a typical 20th century, you know, traditional Latin man's view of that kind of issue. And Lucy never really could buy into that. That was not how she wanted.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. What I think is, what's fascinating is for two people from such totally different worlds and totally different attitudes about life, as you just said, Lucy had a totally different idea about what adultery was. And then Desi did. They had so many things in common. I think one of the most. One of the most startling things to me is the fact that they both had their homes taken away from them at early ages. Dessi was younger than Lucy was, but they both lost their homes and for the rest of their lives they were trying to recreate that home. You know, they always took care of their families.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy took care of her mother, Desi took care of his mother and his father and, and they were constantly trying to recreate that family that they lost. And I think what you highlight really beautifully in the book is the fact that there's a difference between being an immigrant and being a refugee. You know, Desi did not come to this country by choice. He came because of a revolution. He was a refugee. Can you tell us a little bit about Desi's background in Cuba? Because I don't think a lot of people realize where he came from and what he had to face when he came here.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah, basically Tony, he was raised as a prince in pre. Pre 1933 Cuba. His father was the mayor of Santiago, the second largest city on the island. His mother's father was an executive at the Bacardi Rum Company and he had every kind of conceivable privilege. But in 1933, the American backed regime of Gerardo Machado, which had grown corrupt and repressive, was overthrown. And his father, the whole family had to flee to Florida with basically nothing in their pockets. And he reinvented himself as a self taught musician. And one thing led to another.

Todd Purdam:
He worked in nightclubs, wound up on Broadway, then in Hollywood. Lucy too. Her father died before she was four years old. She was passed around among a bunch of different relatives. She had a Lot of dislocation in her life. And in my research, I couldn't find any instance where they actually are on the record talking about this. But I have to believe that at least some, at some subconscious level, this childhood trauma or, you know, what we would even now think almost of as ptsd, must have in some ways drawn them together. And they each were.

Todd Purdam:
They each wanted to, as you say, recreate and build a world of their own. Nuclear family. And that's what they. That's why they did I Love Lucy. They wanted to be able to live in the same town and work together instead of Desi's always being on the road with his band.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah. It's quite remarkable, I think. I think Lucy, Lucy Arnaz said that, you know, this. The show they created to stay together ultimately gave the world this wonderful series. They didn't get what they wanted. They wanted the marriage.

Todd Purdam:
They didn't really. And Dessi, in his draft notes for his memoir, talked about how over the years he'd gotten a lot of letters from men who wrote him to thank him for saving their marriage because they thought their wives were crazy. And then they saw Lucy and they realized they weren't alone. I'm just sorry I could never write Ricky a letter thanking him for saving mine.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, God. That's.

Brad Shreve:
Where do you think. What should he be most known for, other than I Love Lucy, getting into the background and such. What should he most get known for?

Todd Purdam:
Well, because of his work in getting I Love Lucy on the air and the decision that he made in conjunction with, you know, a team of experts that he helped hire to film the show. That's why we can see it 75 years later, looking as pristine and alive as it ever did. He really was a pioneer in the early days of television. And this decision to film the show helped transfer the center of television production from New York, where it had been based as a live medium, to California, where it became overwhelmingly, as it is today, a filmed medium. The fact that the show could be re. Shown and basically invented or, you know, popularized the rerun, syndication sales, the whole modern business model of television that lasted for seven decades until streaming came along as a competing kind of paradigm. And he. He assembled the empire, really in the mid and late 1950s that by the end of the decade had become the largest producer of television content in the world as the Landlord, or producer of shows as diverse as, you know, the Untouchables, Andy Griffith, Danny Thomas and the Dick Van Dyke Show.

Tony Maietta:
So he.

Todd Purdam:
Every time you watch TV today, whether you Realize it or not, you're in a very real way watching the Legacy of Desi Arnaz.

Tony Maietta:
It's so true. You know, I think that. And you touched on this a bit when Desi wrote his book in 1976. And he may have taken maybe a little too much credit for some of the things that he was a force in helping to create the three camera filming of a sitcom, the rerun. But I also think that people don't realize what an empire he and Lucy and mostly Dessi until Lucy took it over of course and greenlit Star Trek and Mission Impossible. I mean it's just astounding to me what an empire Desilu was, what a television force. We just talked about Mary Tyler Moore and Grant Tinker a couple episodes back and how MTM was kind of modeled on Dessilu.

Todd Purdam:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I don't think it was always in his mind, but do you think something just clicked in him when he realized I can make this an empire and create this studio which can rival mgm, which can rival Warner Brothers.

Todd Purdam:
Well, I think what happened was the success of I Love Lucy was so overwhelming. For most of the decade it was the number one show on the air. And the appeal of the filmed model so quickly interested other actors and creators that people were coming to Desilu asking for advice about how to use their three camera system, use their editing system, the so called three headed monster, which could edit three reels of film at once. And they quickly became a landlord or you know, facilitator for other shows. So he realized that if they were going to compete with the major studios which were very tepidly and tentatively getting into television by the mid-1950s, they would have to get bigger because they, they only by growing could they, could they compete. And then what ultimately happened was two things. Desi fell apart with alcoholism and you know, kind of he spiraled into a non functioning mode and it depression. And then by the late 1950s the studios with their, you know, long history and deep pockets got very involved in television and, and Desi Lu in some ways suffered the fate of a lot of startups and innovators that, you know, pioneer a method.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Todd Purdam:
And then the, the bigger deep pocketed people see, oh that's a good idea and they come in and, and so that it became harder. And the other thing that except for the Untouchables, I mean Desilu had some, you know, money making shows. December Bride I think ran for five seasons, but they threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall at Desilu in terms of trying to have replicate of I Love Lucy. And they never had a kind of, you know, anything that came close to that level of commercial success of their own, of their own show. They were, you know, they were the landlord for a lot of very successful shows.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Todd Purdam:
So. So that was part of the problem. And. And I think he. Desi is quick to say that, you know, he didn't really, in the beginning, understand how all this would work, but he was a visionary enough. I love this quote he told the Broadway columnist Earl Wilson in 1958. We've only seen the beginning of TV. Someday you'll have a TV as big as your wall, as big as your house.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah, of course, you know, look at the real estate ads in the Los Angeles Times. And that's absolutely true.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, he probably knew they'd be in your pocket too, on a phone. I mean, the man was such a visionary. Such a visionary in that way.

Brad Shreve:
Speaking as a visionary, one thing I've always been curious about, and I'm glad you're here, is Desi filmed the show, which was a new thing back then, and it was the creation of the rerun, as we know. Did he know that? Why was he saving it in such. And shooting it in such a manner? Did he have that?

Todd Purdam:
There's some. There's some indication that he might have thought there could be a market for foreign sales. But the main thing, two things. One, there was no method of broadcasting a television signal coast to coast. And the center of TV production was in New York, where the sponsors were, the advertising agencies were, and the signal could only go about as far as Chicago, Kansas City, City, St. Louis, something like that. And the audience was mostly in the eastern, you know, two thirds of the country. So Lucy and Desi wanted to do the show in la.

Todd Purdam:
And the only way they could have done that without filming it was to create what's called a Kines. There was no videotape yet either. So they would have had to film a 16 millimeter film off a video monitor, which would have produced a very cruddy image that could not be improved. And CBS and Philip Morris, the sponsor, said they, we will not tolerate that. So that that was the origin of filming. And Desi also knew, and he says in his book, that he knew Lucy would look better on film with good lighting and that the sets could be more permanent, that they could be more like motion picture quality sets, and that the whole thing would just have a. It wouldn't have such a slapdash fly by night appearance as so Much of early. You look at some of these early television programs and the.

Todd Purdam:
The sets billow in the wind like a sail of a sailboat, and, you know, the door closes and it. The whole.

Tony Maietta:
It's like early. It's like silent film.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah. It looks like it's all going to fall over in a strong.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah. That's so funny.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. My immediate thought goes to the Honeymooners. A very simple set and grainy. So.

Tony Maietta:
Except when they filmed it. When they filmed it that season, they filmed the Honeymooners. It was solid because they were filming.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah, they just had those 39 episodes. And that was the one year that.

Tony Maietta:
They filmed, though, something I want to get your take on. Last year of our show, we had my good friend and Thomas J. Watson on the show. And thank you, Tom, for introducing Todd to this podcast. We really appreciate your help in getting Todd here. And Tom and I talked about the Communist witch hunt, the Red Scare, and Lucy's involvement in the Red Scare. And I've always maintained, I've always believed that Desi Arnaz is the true hero of that story because of the fact that he took control and took control of the narrative as soon as he did. And you talk about it wonderfully in your book.

Tony Maietta:
Can you talk a little bit about that particular episode in their lives and Dessi's role in that?

Todd Purdam:
Yes, Tony. I think it's one of his greatest moments. I mean, he really showed tremendous discipline, savvy. All the instincts that he'd honed in his years in show business came to the fore. And also probably, I have to imagine, some of his understanding of how his father's life in politics had worked. He promptly got on the phone among. Well, to back up what happened was that Lucy's grandfather was an old line socialist. He was the father figure in her life.

Todd Purdam:
She called him daddy. In 1936, when she was a new contract player in Hollywood, she brought her whole family out to live with her in la. And he wanted them all to register on the Communist Party line in the middle of the Depression, which, as she later pointed out, was, you know, almost not such a bad thing. It was, you know, being a Republican might have been worse than being a Communist. And she never voted the Communist line. She never was active in the party. But somehow in the early 1950s, when this had become, you know, a very debilitating thing to have in your past, rattling around in your past aftermath of. As the Cold War was heating up, somebody found on the House UN American Activities Committee that this old voter registration card and Lucy testified privately before the committee and explained the situation.

Todd Purdam:
It seemed like it had gone away. But then Walter Winchell, the leading gossip columnist of the day, had a blind item on his radio program and it exploded into headlines in the local Los Angeles Herald examiner, the afternoon paper. And suddenly it seemed to be a career jeopardizing crisis for Lucy. But Dessi got on the phone with J. Edgar Hoover, who assured him, no, they understood. This was all, you know, in the past. And then he got the congressman on the committee to agree to hold a press conference clearing Lucy. This all unfolded on the night they were filming the first newly filmed episode of the third season of I Love Lucy in September 1953.

Todd Purdam:
And Desi, it was really Dessi who led the charge on the. The PR and management strategy. And then he went out and, you know, warmed up the audience as always and had this wonderful line about my favorite redhead. And that's the only thing that's read about her. And even that's not legitimate. And Lucy wasn't sure whether the audience would reject her or accept her. And then she was moved to tears when they cheered her on. And so anyway, it was.

Todd Purdam:
I agree with you completely that it was Desi's diligence and courage, really savvy, that that helped diffuse that crisis.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
I think it also helped. It was the third season. America was madly in love with this.

Todd Purdam:
Yes, absolutely. It wasn't just. You're totally right, Brad. It wasn't just. It was. It wasn't an untested commodity. I think people felt they had such. And that I should say that I found in the Motion Picture Academy library in Hedda Hopper's papers.

Todd Purdam:
She was a virulent anti Communist Communist, but she was friends with the Arnaz's and she supported.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Todd Purdam:
Through this ordeal. But she got a lot of incredibly critical letters from people whose tone is now like what the MAGA tone would be like today, accusing her of, you know, selling out and how dare you defend this woman. And you know, just because she did this for her grandfather, you really believe that? You know, and there the mood of the country was such. And the Korean War, you know, people had. American boys had died in Korea to fight communism. So it was a very fraught time.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it was a shameful, shameful time. And I think you're right. And I think there are people who really never did let it go with her. I think that. And I talked with Tom about it and I read that she never voted again. She just was like, she never again.

Todd Purdam:
Voted in her Life.

Tony Maietta:
I will not do anything. I will not do this. What I love about your book, and we. I love many things about your book. What I love most about your book is that you address Desi's life after 1960. His book, which is called A book by Desi Arnaz, which I think I bought when I was a kid, and I still have the little paperback somewhere, the bantam copy of it. His book stopped in 1960 with the last Lucy Daisy Comedy Hour. And it's also almost like he's saying that's when his life stopped.

Tony Maietta:
It's kind of like this strange metaphor for him. I know that he intended on writing another book afterwards, and maybe that's why he stopped it in 1960, but I love that. Can you give some. And what I love is that you take us beyond 1960 for the rest of his life. So can you take Brad and our listeners and myself a little bit about those years after? And why do you think? Well, first of all, why do you think he stopped in 1960? And then what happened after?

Todd Purdam:
Well, they got divorced in 1960. So the show, the original show, ended and then he just went off to low for a couple of years. Years. But by 1962, in order to keep Desi Liu going, they needed another show. And what they really needed was another Lucy show. So they came up with the concept of the Lucy show, and they were still in the company together. They still owned it. 50 50.

Todd Purdam:
And Desi became the director of those early shows. But he found it ultimately just too hard, too painful. He was also drinking very heavily by then. So Lucy bought him out of the company and he took what amounted to premature retirement at the age of 45 with a nest egg that would amount to about $30 million in today's money. And he proceeded to spend it. He tried. He tried a few comebacks. He did have one successful series in the two years in the late 1960s, the mothers in Law with Eve Arden and Kay Ballard.

Todd Purdam:
But he tried in vain to get a lot of other shows on the air, and nothing seemed to work, partly because he'd become so unreliable that Hollywood didn't trust him anymore because he show up drunk or he'd even get cast in guest guest roles and show up kind of too drunk to function on the set. So, yes, I. And then he, as you said, he tried to write a sequel, but there wasn't really enough activity in the last 25 years of his life to justify a book in the eyes of the publishing industry. For me, when I started the project I knew that the end of his life was pretty sad. So I asked Lucy Arnaz and her husband, Larry Luckinville, how to handle the third activist life. And they said, you know, just handle it head on. And Larry said, there's. There's grace in the third act, too, which there ultimately was, because finally, in the last year was life Desi did conquer.

Todd Purdam:
He got sober and he made a vow to change his life. But then he got lung cancer and.

Tony Maietta:
Died almost immediately after. He.

Todd Purdam:
Almost immediately. Within like a year. So. So it's. It's definitely a sad ending. But the. But the epilogue of the book then returns to the legacy of Desi, which is very much alive and vibrant. And I didn't want to end.

Todd Purdam:
I mean, if I just ended with his death, it would be a very. It's a kind of a Great Gatsby like moment. I mean, his funeral is under attended, and you, you know, you feel like a poor son of a bitch kind of ending in the rain. It wasn't a rainy day.

Tony Maietta:
And didn't. Danny didn't. Danny Thomas insisted.

Todd Purdam:
Danny Thomas called Lucy and insisted on giving the eulogy. And he did. And it was effusive praise for Desi as a pioneer in the industry and helpful to him. And like a hundred people, I think came, but it wasn't, you know, if he died at the peak of his I Love Lucy success, obviously every, you know, buddy in Hollywood would have been there. So it's a. It's a cautionary tale about really the power, the tremendous debilitating power of the disease that he had. And ultimately, you know, but in the end, the part that I'd like readers to take away is he, you know, he had a sad unspooling in his own life, but his achievements have endured and are there and are vital for all of us to celebrate.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, as you said right today.

Brad Shreve:
Still, I want to put a positive spin on a somber topic, and that is that he died a year after getting sober. I know many, many, many alcoholics who repeatedly say, I want to die sober. So at least there's that.

Todd Purdam:
No, it's a very big achievement, I think. And that's. I agree with you. I have the same knowledge. And it was something he was proud of and worked hard to. When his own son, Desi Jr. You know, faced his addiction, Desi wouldn't go to the family program in sobriety at Scripps Hospital in San Diego, in La Jolla, he. He said, we don't air our dirty linen in public.

Todd Purdam:
I'm not Going to go do that. So Lucy Arnaz told me that the fact that her father was ultimately willing to face this was kind of the proudest day of her life, watching him.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, that's, that's a tremendous, tremendously touching point of the book. I, I found very, very touching. I think that, you know, most people are of course fascinated by Dessy with Lucy, you know, there's a. But I think what people don't always realize is there wouldn't be a air quotes Lucy without Desi. I mean, he's wholly responsible along with the genius talent of the woman herself. Of course, he's totally responsible for that entire. Not only the show, but the Persona. I mean, granted, Jess Oppenheimer and Madeline and Bob created the Persona, but he's.

Tony Maietta:
There wouldn't be a Lucy without Dessi. And we think of that today and we think of his incredible legacy. And I think that one of the most touching things was not after, not long after he died was when Lucy was honored at the Kennedy Center. I believe it was the following week.

Todd Purdam:
Oh, days like five days later.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, five days later. And Jessica Tandy and Hume Cronin were also being honored. And Lucy, though overwhelmed by gratitude for being honored, was also a little sad that they weren't honoring Lucy and Desi because she looked at them as the same kind of pair as Jessica Tandy and Hume Cronin.

Todd Purdam:
Yeah, no, they weren't honoring them as a pair and that was significant. And then of course, Desi wasn't able to be there, but he, he sent a letter that Robert Stack read on his behalf. And I think your point is really well taken, that together they were definitely better than the sum than, you know, either one of them alone. Neither one. They would both be remembered. I mean, Lucy, but Lucy would be remembered as a kind of a mini major minor movie star who'd had a couple of performances. She would be remembered for the Big street with Henry Fonda, but she would not be an icon, world famous figure. And Desi saw in her that comedic talent and their matching Personas in the show.

Todd Purdam:
And his willingness to subordinate himself as this excellent straight man allowed her to shine. And they never again, separately, before or after, did anything that came really close to the level of artistic excellence that they had done together. And that's. That's worth remembering.

Tony Maietta:
It's the love. People ask me what's the difference between I Love Lucy and the Lucy Show? And here's Lucy and I'm like, the love, the love is gone. The love is what makes that show so special, the love between them. And even I'd even carry it to the. Brad knows this. I love the first season of the Lucy show. I love it just a little bit, and I believe it just a little bit. And I really feel it's because Dessi was there.

Tony Maietta:
So even. Even when he wasn't on camera, there was love there. There was love in the air, I guess love was all around.

Todd Purdam:
By the end, it becomes more mechanical and by the end of. It's a profusion of a procession of guest stars and kind of gimmicks and, you know, trying to. Also making kind of now cringy fun of 70s trends or rock music or bell bottom pants or whatever, you know, and it's. It looks. It dates. Seems very dated and in an effort to be of the moment, then it looks hopelessly out of date now. Whereas I Love Lucy, you have no idea that Harry Truman is president or the Korean War is going on. You could laugh just as if you're watching a Greek comedy.

Todd Purdam:
I mean, it's stuff of human nature. Jealousy, love, rivalry, friendship, ambition, thwarted ambition. All these things are eternal emotions. And that's why the show is so evergreen for audiences today.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, we talked about movies recently and whether they seem dated or not. And it is amazing that this show is not dated. And it's. Because it was so simple. Yeah, it was about two people in love.

Tony Maietta:
Two people in love. Again, the love. That's what it's about.

Brad Shreve:
I'm curious because you mentioned Lucy. Lucy Arnaz's daughter was proud of him when he got sober. What was his relationship with his children, given how rocky his life was at that time?

Todd Purdam:
Yes, I think he loved his children. They loved him. He was close. I mean, he was. It got tense at times for both of them. They wound up having to care for him because of his, you know, his alcoholism. And he would get himself in scrapes and jams, and they would have to parent him, essentially, but they never doubted his love. I mean, I asked Lucy Arnaz once about the comparative parenting styles, and she's like, after the divorce especially, and she said, well, you know, my mother was very conscientious.

Todd Purdam:
She'd worry, have you done your homework? Have you done. Done this? Have you taken your vitamins? And my dad would be, what do you want to do? Go horseback riding or swimming? And, you know, you can't really. You can't really compare the two. I think as she became older and a teenager and saw, understood, began to understand what the alcoholism was doing to Desi, she Told me it was harder for her to go down to Del Mar to the beach and be with him because it was, could be uncomfortable, he'd be, you know, grouchy. And Desi Jr. I think also you know, really was there for him, showed up for him in a big way when he would be in crisis at times and then ultimately was the one who led him to face his own questions about sobriety. So they both have a very. They both understand that their parents belong to the rest of us, that they belong to the world in this way.

Todd Purdam:
That must be unnerving. I don't think either one of them is under any illusions about their, their parents shortcomings as people or parents. But they both seem to be in a very well thought out place of forgiveness and understanding. And I think Lucy and Desi Jr. Each in their own way told me something like, well, we know they just did the best they could and we never doubted that they loved us. And that's pretty good to be able to say at the end of the day. I mean, when you consider the children of some celebrities, how they wind up feeling about their parents or you know.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, so true, true, you know, and I, and you know, Lucy and Desi Jr. And Lucy in particular has been such a wonderful custodian of her parents legacy. We owe her such a great deal for preserving it and making sure the record was straight as to what their parents did and who. And she's very. What I love about Lucy is she's very honest about who her parents are, very excited.

Todd Purdam:
I mean, I'm in totally in her diary. Could not have written this book without her cooperation is a pitiful way to describe the trust she showed. And she's very tender in nurturing their legacy, but she's also extremely clear eyed. She's not inclined to sugarcoat the reality of their lives. And I think that gives her enormous credibility just as a journalist looking at her. To me she's a classic example of a person who's a very trusted, trustworthy source. Because she doesn't try to kid you about, you know, she, she just levels with you about what, what the real. And she's also fiercely protective of, of misunderstandings or if people are, you know, want to focus only on some tabloidy negative side of things.

Todd Purdam:
She's quick to say that, you know, there's more to the story than that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Todd, we really appreciate you being here and listeners, Tony and I like to have a little fun and we bicker now and then. But when it comes right down to it. We are so happy. We have wonderful guests like Todd Perdeman. And once again, thank you for being here. If you've listened this far, we hope that it's because you like this show and we would love it if you would rate and review Apple, Spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, thank you. And absolutely. Listener, go out and buy a copy of Desi Arnaz, the Man who Invented Television by Todd S. Purnom, also available on audible, read by Mr. Purdham. And Todd, as someone who's read one of their own books on Audible, I give you many kudos. You're wonderful. You really, it's, it's such an entertaining listen as much as an entertaining read.

Todd Purdam:
Well, thank you, Tony. I have a face for radio, I'm afraid, but it's, it was fun to do. It's. As you know, reading a book is a, is a multi day project and a certain. It gave me a very vivid appreciation for the work of voiceover artists who are amazing.

Tony Maietta:
Right? Yeah, absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
And listener, the link is in the show notes. Be sure to click on it.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, absolutely. Thank you, Todd. Thank you, Tom. Again, Thomas J. Watson, thanks so much.

Todd Purdam:
To you both for having me.

Tony Maietta:
Thank you much. Much more success with the book. I know, it's fabulous and you're just, it's just, it's fantastic. And I hope when you write your next one, you'll be with us again.

Todd Purdam:
I'll be delighted, delighted to come back. Thanks for asking. And thanks also to Tom Watson who, who was an enormous help.

Tony Maietta:
He's the best. He's the best. Well, Brad, I guess that's all we have to say. But let's not say goodbye. Let's just say auvoir.

Brad Shreve:
No, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Goodbye, everybody. That's all, folks.