Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age.

Tony Maietta:
The.

Tony Maietta:
We go behind the scenes and share our opinions, too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, you're doing it to me again. We were supposed to start on the half hour. Oh.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, God. I'm sorry, but who are all those. Brad, who are these people? Who are your people? What are these people doing here?

Brad Shreve:
Or we're doing a group zoom call.

Tony Maietta:
I told you that I was gonna text you. I. I have a cold. Oh, my God, I've got a terrible head cold.

Brad Shreve:
You look awful.

Tony Maietta:
Hi, everybody. I'm sorry, I. I usually look so much better than this. Please, please believe me. I have a much cuter outfit at the cleaners. And my hair. It's just that, you see, I've had this cold. Are you gonna say anything?

Brad Shreve:
I thought you were about to sneeze again.

Tony Maietta:
Was that our lamest intro ever?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Well, we couldn't figure out a way to start. We couldn't figure out a way to start, so I. I had a brilliant idea that I would try to be Mary Richards. No. Not gonna fly. It's not flying anyway. Hey, everybody. I don't have a cold.

Tony Maietta:
That was my acting skills. Welcome to a very special episode of Going Hollywood. And why is it a very special episode, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Because we are doing Mary Tyler Moore again.

Tony Maietta:
Number two.

Brad Shreve:
Number two.

Tony Maietta:
Number two. So we're doing four more. Give. Get it for Mary. Get it. So why. We should probably tell people. Brad, why are we revisiting Minneapolis? It can't just be the weather and it's cold and we figure we'd keep better.

Tony Maietta:
Why are we going back to Minneapolis and the whole WJM Gang?

Brad Shreve:
Because last season we had a few episodes that were far more popular than the others, and one of them at the top was Mary Tyler Moore. People seem to love Mary.

Tony Maietta:
Everybody loves Mayor. Who doesn't love Mayor? So we thought, you know what? It's kind of. It's summertime. You know, we're just. We're not on vacation, certainly, because here we are recording a podcast. But I thought it'd be fun to go back to Minneapolis. Minneapolis is beautiful in the summertime, and I think it'd be fun to go back. Plus, as we said in our last episode, picking four episodes to Talk about from this incredible series is impossible.

Tony Maietta:
And I always wanted the opportunity to revisit this show again and discuss four more. So there you go. That's what we're doing.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't tell you what I did to get charged for this episode.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, what'd you do?

Brad Shreve:
Minutes before we logged in, I listened to Joan Jett's version of the Mary Tyler theme song just to get that in the high energy going to the.

Tony Maietta:
Mary Tyler More theme song. Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. You know, And I did. I watched that little clip I tried to recreate from Put on a Happy Face, which is one of our episodes. Which is one of our episodes that we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about four, but with the. With the caveat that two of those episodes are the first episode and the final episode. Because I feel like first episode, final.

Brad Shreve:
Episode, and then each of us picked one.

Tony Maietta:
I picked one and Brad picked one. And I really did let Brad pick his. I didn't, like, give him heavy suggestions like I always do. I'm such a freaking control freak. But Brad actually picked the one that I was praying that he would pick because it's. Oh, my God, it's so close. It was so hard for me to choose between the two that I did. So I'm glad you're doing it, Brad.

Brad Shreve:
I was waiting once again for Tony to say, I want you to pick your own. And then the next day to get an email saying, why don't you do this one? Or why don't you do this one? So I'm glad the one I picked was one that you wanted me to do because it.

Tony Maietta:
This. This could explain why. This could explain why, like Mary Richards, I was single at 30 and single at 40 and single at 50. Anyway, let's stop right now. So as a bonus, though, not just four episodes, but I did kind of sneak this in with you, Brad, but we're not going to talk about this episode, but I do want to reference it because as a kind of a bonus, there is an actual, verifiably bad episode. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
It must have Martha Ray as a guest.

Tony Maietta:
No Martha Ray yet, but you never know. She's behind every corner, behind every doorway. There's. There's a verifiably bad episode. Even Alan Burns and James L. Brooks admitted this is a bad episode. So we're going to talk about that one. It's very early in, but I do want to put that in there.

Tony Maietta:
So, yeah, so that's what we're going to Do. And I think it's going to be a lot of fun to revisit the show. And I know I was happy going back and seeing my old pals again. It was a lot of fun.

Brad Shreve:
Yep, it was. I was gonna watch this in the afternoon, and Marie said, are you gonna watch Mary Tyler Moore? And I said, yeah. And he said, why don't you wait till tonight? I can watch it with you. And I said, it's Mary Tyler Moore. We just watched the whole series. He said, I want to watch it again. Okay.

Tony Maietta:
So it's a classic. That's the definition of a classic. Definition of a classic. So I don't think we need to go too much into the background of the Mary Tyler Moore show since we did it. If you want the background, go listen to our episode last year, because we really, really went into it.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
What we didn't do last year was I didn't really talk about. This is. By the way, this is becoming a Mary Tyler Moore season, which I have no problems with because we just talked about Ordinary People not that long ago, and now we're talking about Mary. So the Mary Tyler Moore show. So. But we didn't really talk about where Mary Tyler Moore was in her career at this point. And also Alan Burns and James L. Brooks.

Tony Maietta:
Can I just touch on that lightly, just so we know why this was happening?

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely.

Tony Maietta:
So once again, kind of like when she was considering doing Ordinary People, Mary Tyler Moore was at a crossroads. And at her career at this point, the film career that she had envisioned after the end of the Dick Van Dyke show fizzled out, including a very notorious film called A Change of Habit. And do you know that film, Brad? You know the film A Change of Habit?

Brad Shreve:
No.

Tony Maietta:
From the title, take it literally. What do you think it could possibly be about?

Brad Shreve:
I think it's about a nun.

Tony Maietta:
It is about a nun. Mary Tyler Moore plays a nun opposite Elvis Presley.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, no.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
No wonder I've never heard of it. That sounds painful.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, wow. Oh, wow. It's such a. Oh, God, it's pain. You know, it's. Well, she's playing a nun opposite Elvis. That's pretty much all you had to know. So.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So, I mean, she must have looked at her career and said, boy, this thing really did not turn out the way I thought it was going to when I left the Dick Van Dyke Show. So. She was also kind of at a low point personally, because she had just suffered a miscarriage, discovered that she had type 1 diabetes. And anybody who knows anything about Mary Tyler Moore Knows particularly in her later years, her. Her diabetes was. Was a condition which was very. I don't want to say it was torturous to her, but it was very difficult for her.

Tony Maietta:
But she became a champion for diabetes research, for treatment. She is a true hero for. If you can be a hero for diabetes. She was a hero in the fight against. Against diabetes, I guess, is what you want to say. But this was a very low point for her. And who do you suppose came to the rescue at this very low point and gave her a hand up? Do you know, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Grant Tinker?

Tony Maietta:
Well, no, Grant was always there. Grant was there. Oh, no. Dick.

Brad Shreve:
I thought maybe he said, hey, I got this great idea.

Tony Maietta:
No, Dick Van Dyke.

Brad Shreve:
Oh. But that was too obvious. That's why I didn't say it.

Tony Maietta:
Dick Van Dyke asked her to appear opposite him in a TV special called Dick Van Dyke and the Other Woman. And it was a huge success. And suddenly CBS rediscovers Mary Tyler Moore. They're like, oh, yeah, we have this brilliant, beautiful comedic actress right here, and we're not doing anything with her. So that was the point when they offered her the series. And, you know, we said it before in the past episode, the first episode was not a pilot. And I'll probably call it a pilot because it's so easy to call a pilot. But CBS gave her 13 episodes.

Tony Maietta:
They're like, no, we will put you. She had a guarantee of 13 episodes. So it wasn't a pilot in the literal sense, that they were testing a premise. This was already a done deal. However, what wasn't a done deal was who was going to create it. And this is where Grant Tinker came in, because Grant Tinker was. He was basically. He decided that he and Mary.

Tony Maietta:
And Mary also thought of this too, that they wanted to produce the show via their own production company, a la Lucy and Dessie. You know, just like Desilu. And that's how they created MTM Enterprises, which, like Desilu, became a force in TV production.

Brad Shreve:
Did it ever.

Tony Maietta:
But here's the thing. Grant Tinker, it really did. Grant Tinker was working at Fox at the time, so he could not directly be involved in the series. So he had to hire some people to actually create it and produce it. And that's where Alan Burns and James L. Brooks came in. They had worked together on a sitcom called room 222, which ran from 69 to 74, which was a groundbreaking sitcom in that it was set in a racially diverse Los Angeles high school.

Brad Shreve:
And it touched on some Very touchy subjects at the time. Yeah, I consider it more of a dramedy, like one of the very first.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's a really interesting show. It was never a huge ratings hit, but it did win an Emmy its first year for Outstanding New Series. So it was. It was very highly, highly respected. And that's why Tinker thought of Brooks and Burns, who, by the way, cbs, of course, big surprise, wasn't crazy about. They're like, who are these guys? What do they do? All right, we're already in this contract, so we got to do it anyway. And that's how Alan Burns and James L.

Tony Maietta:
Brooks became involved in the show. And of course, if anybody knows anything about film history, I mean, after the Mary Tyler Moore Show, James L. Brooks and Alan Burns, to a lesser extent, James L. Brooks became a huge, huge film producer. Terms of Endearment, Broadcast News. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. So these are two very, very talented guys. Should we talk a little bit about some of the other people that they brought up and some of the casting? Do you want to do that?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Now, they needed a director, and we talked a bit about this in our last episode. Jay Sandrich was the primary director of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. He directed about 17 out of the 24 episodes per year, which was great, because then he was. He was pretty much the. The guiding hand. But he also gave guest directors opportunities to come in and direct a show, including to guest directors. You may have heard of Nancy Walker. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Ida Morgenstern directed an episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Brad Shreve:
Wow.

Tony Maietta:
And the lady herself. Mary Tyler Moore directed one episode. It was called A Boy's Best Friend in Season five. And it's a cute episode, but obviously it's not a great episode because we're not going to be talking about it today.

Brad Shreve:
I was afraid. You got to tell me. It's the bad one.

Tony Maietta:
No, it's not. It's not. It's not. No. Herbert Kenworth directed the bad one. And this podcast isn't long enough for me to go into my opinions about Herbert Kenworth. Anyway, so, anyway, Sandrich, however, Sandrich was amazing. He began his career as.

Tony Maietta:
Guess where. As an assistant director on I Love Lucy. Big surprise. He was the second assistant director. Desire Naz hired him.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And he was hired because. This is a while. Here's our Lucy moment. He was hired because Mark Sandrich, his father, directed Lucy's first film in which she had lines, and that was most likely Top Hat. He directed It's a Star and Rogers film, and Lucille never forgot his kindness to her. And what do we always. What did we always say about Lucy and loyalty, you know, that was so important to Lucy? Say what you want about Lucy and, you know, the fact that she ran her show. She did, but she never forgot a kindness, and she was very loyal to people.

Tony Maietta:
So that show, Jay Sandrich really has Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz to thank for his career. He went on to direct Soap, Get Smart, the Cosby show, the pilot episodes of Bob Newhart Show, WKRP in Cincinnati, and the Golden Girls.

Brad Shreve:
Wow.

Tony Maietta:
In fact, it was Jay Sandrich who suggested that Rue McClanahan and Betty White switch parts in the Golden Girls pilot. Do you know that? Did you know that, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, I did. Because Betty was already a slut on this show. Mary Tyler Moore and Rue, I don't know, was she kind of prudish on Maude or.

Tony Maietta:
No, she was just. She was kind of naive. Vivian's kind of like a naive. It was. They were too similar. Suanne was too similar to Blanche, and Vivian was too similar to Rose. So Jay Sandrich said, why don't you guys switch parts and TV history comes out. So, anyway, so we've got this crew behind to make this series.

Tony Maietta:
And I think finally, another very important key element is Ethel Winant. Ethel Winant is really the hero of this series because she is a legendary casting director. She'd been casting since TV in the 50s, Playhouse 90. She was now the head of CBS casting, but she personally requested to work on this show because of her admiration for Brooks Burns and Mary Tyler Moore. And it's so important because Ethel Winant went to the mat for anybody that she thought should be in this show. And do you want to tell us some of the people that Ethel Winant went to the mat for and got on this show? Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I would, because I don't think we went really in depth in the. To the cast that much on the last episode. And some of these, I don't know anything about them before this, Betty White, obviously, Mary Tyler Moore. Beyond that, I'm. They're all kind of blank to me before Mary Tyler Moore, so this should be good. So in addition to Mary, obviously, we had Ed Asner as Lou Grant.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Gavin McLeod as Murray Slaughter, the writer for the News, sat next to Mary and had a little crush on her that was never fruitful because he was a married man.

Tony Maietta:
I want to interject something about Gavin and Ed, because originally.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Did you know that Gavin originally was called in to read for the part of Lou?

Brad Shreve:
I think you Mentioned that last time, which is. It's hard for me to imagine, but Murray really.

Tony Maietta:
The part of Murray really appealed to him. And Ed Asner famously tanked in his first reading. He was really, really bad in his first reading, but he left the office and then he came back, realizing that just sucked. He came back and asked them if he could read again. And they were like, oh, thank God. Yes, please. That was terrible. Do it again.

Brad Shreve:
I'm glad they knew. Everybody can have a bad day.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, exactly. These guys were really cool in that way. God, I wish they were casting when I was acting. But even in Mary Tyler Moore, even the lady herself expressed doubts about his. About him after their first reading together. And they said, trust us, trust us, this will work. And God did it ever.

Brad Shreve:
That's amazing, given their chemistry, that she didn't think it was going to work, you know.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he. It took him a while to warm up. As we said in our last episode, Ed Asner is a very accomplished dramatic actor. You know, he had done so much drama that it was very difficult for him to kind of lighten up his touch because you still have to be very serious with comedy. You've said a million times you play comedy like it's the most serious drama, but there has to be a lightness of it. And Edward Asner was scaring everybody because he's so. Because he was such a heavy in his line readings and in his presentation. So he learned it clearly and became brilliant at it.

Tony Maietta:
Who else we got?

Brad Shreve:
Well, the next one is Ted Nidus. Ted Baxter.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
Genius.

Tony Maietta:
Genius.

Brad Shreve:
Of course we have Valerie Harper, who I should have mentioned second. Valerie Harper was Mary's neighbor who lived upstairs in the coolest apartment that I used to want. She played Rhoda Morgenstern.

Tony Maietta:
You wanted Rhoda's apartment?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yes, as a kid, I did. It looked a lot like the inside of Jeannie's bottle. And both of those were very cool back in the 60s and 70s.

Tony Maietta:
And very pink.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, very pink. Yeah. Her apartment was like the. The wood siding version of the genie bottle.

Tony Maietta:
And you know, sometimes how she had. Sometimes she had the beads on the doorway, and sometimes she didn't have the beads in the doorway. Depending upon, you know, if somebody had to knock or if it was a surprise entrance, they couldn't have the beads there, so they always changed, which I loved. Yes, I loved Rhoda's place, too. I did. You know, it's interesting because Rhoda, Valerie Harper, you know, we talked a little bit about her. The fact that she Was not Jewish. She was not from New York.

Tony Maietta:
She was a true. She was an improvisational actress. She was actually the last character cast. Ethel Winant had a very, very difficult time. She said she saw every, every 30 year old actress in Hollywood and nobody was right for this part because it was a very complicated part. But this is what Ethel Winant used to do. And this is what does not, unfortunately and very sad, does not happen anymore in Hollywood. I'm telling you right now, this is the tea.

Tony Maietta:
She would go to small theater productions every single night. She considered it part of her job to see who was out there. Now you'd think that makes sense. People don't do that anymore. There's not a lot of little theater in Los Angeles anymore anyway that's any good. But she would do this. And she was constantly looking for new talent. And on one of those trips she went to an off Melrose Theater.

Tony Maietta:
And we're talking small theater, we're talking like less than 90 seats here. Yeah, okay. And she went to this production that was put on by this Second City improv type group called Story Theater. And this is where she saw this dark girl with a tiny little nose and a great sense of humor. Didn't get her name. She tracked her down and it was Valerie Harper. And she brought Valerie Harper in to read. And I, they all thought, no, this woman is too attractive.

Tony Maietta:
This woman is. There's just no way. And we've talked about that many times how, you know, Valerie Harper was a stunning, stunning woman. The fact that she could actually carry off. Now, she was, you know, in her own words, no fat shaming here. She was overweight. She admitted to that. But it was her acting, it was her manner that brought Rhoda off.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't necessarily her looks. And that's what's genius about that, don't you think?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it is. And I never saw her as being that heavy. I. She always did the self deprecating humor about her weight. And I always thought, you're not that big. Everybody talks about when she went to Rhoda, her own series, and how she was very slim and stylish at that point. And so Brenda kind of filled in the Rhoda role. I never saw Rhoda as Brenda.

Tony Maietta:
Like, well, here's the thing. Ever you're standing next to Mary Tyler Moore. Mary Tyler.

Brad Shreve:
Anybody's gonna look fat.

Tony Maietta:
Anybody is gonna look fat standing next to Mary Tyler Moore. That's just the way it is. So it's. It didn't, it didn't matter though. It was the character. It's what she did, you know, and she actually came to her. She came to her audition. Her audition was the balcony scene of the first episode we're going to talk about.

Tony Maietta:
And she mimed the washing of the windows. She brought a bucket and she brought a sponge. No water. And she actually mimed that. Which as an actor, you're told you don't do that at an audition. You bring props, but you don't mime things. But she obviously did a pretty good job because they cast her. They cast her.

Brad Shreve:
Now, was this her first TV role or.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
The reason I'm asking.

Tony Maietta:
Well, she had done Broadway. She was in Wildcat with Lucy. Lucy moment. And she was in Li' l Abner on Broadway in the film of Lil Abner. So she had done theater, but she was in. She was in California now with her husband Richard Shaw, who later became Howard Arnell on the series for TV work. But she was not being successful. He was being much more successful than she was.

Tony Maietta:
So this was her first go at a TV show.

Brad Shreve:
And I asked that because it's interesting that this was her first goal. She became very successful. She spun off to her own series, Rhoda, and then Julie Kavanagh playing her sister Brenda. It was her first gig as well.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. That's kind of crazy, right?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And that spin up. But that spin off Brenda never happened. I don't understand why. But anyway, Julie Kavner is not crying, believe me. No, she's. We should all have Julie Kavanaugh's problems. How many seasons is the Simpsons now? Is it still on?

Brad Shreve:
460 years right now.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, my God.

Brad Shreve:
It's still going. I don't know how long.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, God, God, God. So we talked a lot about Ted Knight in our last episodes. We're not going to touch too much on Ted Knight, but we did not talk about. We talked about her, but there's a little more background about someone that you forgot to mention, actually. Did you happen to mention Cloris Brando? Also a highlight of our this season at Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
I haven't mentioned her or Betty White.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, okay. Well, you go then.

Brad Shreve:
Well, Betty White is. I'm going to skip Flores and go to Betty White first because I'm just amazed. You know, Betty White was back in the early days of television where most things were pretty squeaky clean. So her finally getting to graduate to the role that she did towards the last half of the series was just. I love it for her. I'm sure it was a breath of fresh air.

Tony Maietta:
Was. And as we said, if you watch.

Brad Shreve:
Her on old game shows and stuff, she. She certainly had her salty side.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's. Yeah. And then we said that in the last episode, you know, that's. People who knew Betty White knew that she was a bawdy, funny, sharp, salty woman. You know, she could. She could throw out the one liners there with the best of them, but because of her early morning TV image since the 40s, she was looked at as this, you know, sickeningly sweet, you know, just a. It was not her, basically, is what I'm trying to say. But that was her image.

Brad Shreve:
So she got to play the sickening sweet with a twist.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because she's playing both of them. She's playing both parts as suanne. That's what we said was so genius about suann. Was. It was sickeningly sweet on the surface and a viper underneath. And yes, Betty White, God bless her, you know, she's on a stamp now.

Tony Maietta:
Did you know that?

Brad Shreve:
No, I didn't know.

Tony Maietta:
There's. She's such a national treasure. She's on a stamp. So there you go with Betty.

Brad Shreve:
You know, I almost picked the episode with Johnny Carson where he did not appear, but was talked through the whole thing only because Sue Ann was her sluttiest, best throughout that whole episode. And I almost picked it for that. And then I thought, that's the one I picked. And I thought, no, I'm gonna go with that one. It was a tough choice between the two.

Tony Maietta:
Sue Ann's good in my episode, so we'll get some Suey Ann on my episode. And yes, we have Cloris Brando coming up. We got. Yes, the inimitable Cloris Leachman. Did you know that the character. Did you know what Phyllis's original name. I'm really pushing us here. Did you know what she was originally going to be called? Marna Lindstrom.

Brad Shreve:
Not Marna.

Tony Maietta:
Marna. That's a kind of a bad name, isn't it? I'm glad they changed it to Phyllis.

Brad Shreve:
Well, plus you'd have a Marna and a Mary.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Which we're writing. I'll tell you, you never want two names that are that similar.

Tony Maietta:
That would be very, very confusing. Very confusing. But we've talked a lot about Cloris, so I don't need to go into her actor studio background. Yes, her nickname was Cloris Brando. You know, she was constantly getting into it with Jay Sandwich because she would do these brilliant flights of business and Sandridge would say, that was great. Cloris Only one problem. No one will see it because you just went out of camera range. So it was very difficult to reign.

Tony Maietta:
And in fact, for one of my episodes this happened. And it's very funny. But you know, about this time, do you know that Cloris Leachman and we didn't talk about this last time, Cloris Leachman refused to sign a long term contract. That's why she was just going episode by episode. That's why every time she's on it gets special guest star Cloris Leachman. Because she was not technically. Even though we think of her as a regular and you know, in every sense of the word, she is. She wanted her free time because she had just shot a little film called the Last Picture show which had a little bit of buzz.

Tony Maietta:
And so she was really wanting to do be sure she had time to do films. And that was a good choice considering she won the Oscar that year for best supporting actress.

Brad Shreve:
A lot of people got attention from the Last Picture Show.

Tony Maietta:
They sure did. Well, it's a wonderful show, wonderful movie. We should talk about it sometime.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
We didn't mention Georgia Engel.

Brad Shreve:
No.

Tony Maietta:
The sublime, wonderful Georgia Engel who played Georgette, someone else from theater had not done television, was in Los Angeles. And it was just the right part at the right time with the right actress. And I don't even believe Georgia Engel had a car when she got this part. I think she had to find ways to get to the studio until she could actually afford to buy a car. That is how unsure she was or unprepared she was for the fact that she would actually get this role because it was a one off. Remember, it was only supposed to be one episode, one of Mary's parties, Rhoda's going away party. And she just was such a breath of fresh air and such a fun, intriguing actress that they brought her back until she became like Betty White became a series regular.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm glad that happened.

Tony Maietta:
So. So we. This is the cast we have. So what we're gonna do, the format of this episode of Going Hollywood is we're gonna talk about four episodes. And the very first episode we're going to talk about is indeed the first episode because we talked all around it last time, but we didn't actually talk about it. So the first episode, Love is All Around Series Season 1, Episode 1, which aired on September 19, 1970, written by James L. Brooks and Alan Burns and directed by Jay Sandridge.

Tony Maietta:
Do you have any idea when Mr. Grant will be back?

Speaker D:
Hi, Mr. Grant.

Tony Maietta:
You're back.

Speaker D:
Look, miss, I was just about to have a drink and I wouldn't mind some company. Want one?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, no, thank you.

Speaker D:
I said I wouldn't mind some company.

Tony Maietta:
Well, all right. I'll have a Brandy Alexander.

Speaker D:
How about some coffee?

Tony Maietta:
That'll be fine. Has the job been filled?

Speaker D:
Yeah. Oh, but there is another job. How old are you?

Tony Maietta:
30.

Speaker D:
No hedging? No. How old do I look?

Tony Maietta:
Why, Hedge, how old do I look?

Speaker D:
30. What religion are you?

Tony Maietta:
Mr. Grant, I don't quite know how to say this, but you're not allowed to ask that when someone's applying for a job. It's against the law.

Speaker D:
Wanna call a cop?

Tony Maietta:
No.

Speaker D:
Good. Would you think I was violating your civil rights if I asked if you're married?

Tony Maietta:
Presbyterian. Well, I decided I'd answer your religion question.

Speaker D:
Divorced?

Tony Maietta:
No.

Speaker D:
Never married?

Tony Maietta:
No.

Speaker D:
Why?

Tony Maietta:
Why?

Speaker D:
You type?

Tony Maietta:
Mr. Grant, there's no simple answer to that question.

Speaker D:
Yes, there is. How about, no, I can't type or yes, I can?

Tony Maietta:
There's no simple answer to why a person isn't married.

Speaker D:
How many different reasons can there be?

Tony Maietta:
65.

Speaker D:
Words per minute.

Tony Maietta:
My typing question?

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Speaker D:
Look, miss, would you try answering the questions as I ask them?

Tony Maietta:
Yes, Mr. Grant, I will. But it does seem that you've been asking a lot of very personal questions that don't have a thing to do with my qualifications for this job.

Speaker D:
You know what you got?

Tony Maietta:
Spunk. Well, yes.

Tony Maietta:
I hate spunk.

Brad Shreve:
What's funny about this episode is there's so much that happens. It really sets the stage very, like a lot in 30 minutes without it being overwhelming. But out of everything that happened in this, probably, I think it was 28 minute episode, which really surprised me because no episode. No shows today are 28 minutes long. They're.

Tony Maietta:
God, no.

Brad Shreve:
What are they? Practically 15 with commercials. But out of all the show, the one thing everybody remembers is I hate spunk.

Tony Maietta:
It's such a great line. Yes, it's such a great line. And we talked a little bit about the disastrous filmings, the disastrous first filming of the pilot and how everybody was upset. And, you know, Grant Tinker called up Brooks and Burns and just said to them, fix it. And they basically added one line which gave the audience permission to like Rhoda. And they just tinkered with some things and they told Ed Asner, you're punching. You got spunk. I hate spunk.

Tony Maietta:
Too hard. Again, this was the problem they had with Asner in the first season was he was such an accomplished dramatic actor, he wanted to give it everything he needed to Lighten it. It's still a brilliant take, by the way. And it is. It's. It's. It's iconic because he does it so well. He gives it just the correct amount of insanity that it seems like this guy's a little on.

Tony Maietta:
Off. He's a little off. But he's very funny and intriguing, and we want to see more of him.

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely. And let me tell you what I really love about Lou Grant and Ed Eisen playing Lou Grant is from the first episode to the last episode, he was great, rough. He softened, of course, because he did grow as a character. We like to see that happen, especially when he developed his love friendship with Mary. But he never really changed. I'm thinking of all in the Family and then Archie Bunker's place and where by the time the show was over, Archie was a flaming liberal. It just was like, no. And I'm glad.

Brad Shreve:
Granted, when the Lou Grant series came on, he softened way too much. They said, we're not gonna do the drinking. He softened way too much. But throughout this show, he softened, but was always Lou.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes. He grew, like all the characters. And I said this last time, like all the characters in this show. And this is why I love this show so much. They grew. They changed like real people. What's interesting about doing this particular episode, Brad, of going Hollywood is you can actually see the growth of Mary Richards.

Tony Maietta:
You see her as the young, naive, kind of unsure young woman she was in the first episode, and then we're watching the last episode, and she is a strong woman. You know, there's no question about that. And it's not like that happened overnight. That was a very slow, wonderful progression.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And I love that. I love that about that. What I love about the. What this. I almost called it a pilot. See, I heard the P coming, but I didn't. What I love about this first episode and the beginning is, is that they gave her a backstory in the opening credits.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Isn't that crazy? It's. It's all so quick. It's so condensed. But there's a bon voyage party with people we never see again. Who are these people?

Brad Shreve:
Well, they were her friends back. Where did she come from? Do you.

Tony Maietta:
Roseburg. Roseburg, Minnesota.

Brad Shreve:
That's where she lived was. Roseburg.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Roseburg. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fictional town. I'm positive it's fictional. If we have any listeners in Roseburg, I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's fictional. But, yeah, she's leaving Roseburg and a bad relationship.

Tony Maietta:
And we're going to talk about that, but I love it. Gave her a backstory. And then it brings her to Minneapolis. And that was all shot in two, three very cold days in 1970. And we talked a little bit about this because Brad gave me grief because I didn't know who Hazel Frederick was. And of course, I know who Hazel Frederick is. But I had a brain freeze when he asked me that. Hazel Frederick is the woman who is scowling at her as she throws her hat up in the air at the end.

Tony Maietta:
And she became a celebrity on her own. And the reason she's scowling at her is because that entire opening sequence was shot gorilla style. And there was a camera in a van. There was no, like, okay, we're filming something here for a TV show, folks. Stand back. No, there was a camera in a van. Nobody knew this was happening. And Mary Tyler Moore really ran out into that.

Tony Maietta:
Into that intersection and threw her beret in the air. That happened in real time. That's why Hazel's looking at her like, what is wrong with this woman? She's going to get killed.

Brad Shreve:
And it's. This is the first show that I recall, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, where the city was really important. Let's take Dick Van Dyke Show. For a while, they were in New Rochelle, New York, but they could have been anywhere.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
Have been in Manhattan. And a lot of the old sitcoms were in imaginary towns or.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
This is the first one that I can recall that not only were they in the city, but the city was part of the series.

Tony Maietta:
Right. No, it's very.

Brad Shreve:
If you look out Mary's window, for God's sake.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. It was very important to Brooks and Burns originally. You know, they didn't want to put in New York. They didn't want to put it in Los Angeles. They wanted Minneapolis because Minneapolis has what it has weather. And they knew the weather would. Could be a huge. A great plot twist, a great plot point.

Tony Maietta:
One of our favorite episodes we talked about last season, Not A Christmas Story, when they're all snowed in in the office. That's not gonna happen in Los Angeles. You know, it forced the series to be inside. You know, it forced people to. People were dealing with weather. People had changes that. There were changes of seasons. You know, Mary could have different outfits.

Tony Maietta:
It was very important that Minneapolis be a part of. Of the show. It's really another character. You're absolutely right.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it was great that they did that. And all those opening shots Being shot there, you really feel like it's there.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, you do, you do. There is one thing in this first season, though, that if you notice in the beginning, not only the very depressing original theme song of how will you make it on your own? But there's a quick shot of Mary Richards in a fur coat.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And we know that what an advocate Mary Tyler Moore became later in her life for animal rights and how anti fur she was. And she made sure that was taken out the second year when she became more and more aware of what was happening. And she was horrified by that. But that's in there. I mean, that was the 70s, but you gotta look really quick. But it's in there. And it's only in the first season. It was taken out of all the.

Brad Shreve:
Other beginnings and you mentioned the depressing song and you. How will you make it on your own? The next verse is to me this time, girl, you're all alone. I mean, so somber. But it was great because you really. It set the stage. This is where she was. And then, you know, once her career started moving, we switched to the new song. So it really was a good transition.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it gives you that element of melancholy that other shows didn't necessarily have at the time. I mean, I love Dick Van Dyke, but I mean, it's happy, it's bouncy.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
You know, I think there's even lyrics to it which are happy and bouncy. You know, this show is different. This show, all in the family, you know, those were the days. Setting the scene. This show is. This show is saying we're not an average comedy. There's a. There's a certain amount of sadness in this.

Tony Maietta:
This woman. It's scary to leave your home and to go out on your own, even at age 30. Maybe even scarier at age 30 to go out on your own and try to forge your life after you've had a disappointing relationship blow up in your face. So I love that about that first season. And then by the time we came to the second season, she's set, she's got her friends, so she can turn the world on with a smile. Well, we know she's gonna make it. So everything's okay. Everything's okay.

Tony Maietta:
You know, it's funny in these early episodes though, like, and we talked about this with Alice, you know, Mary Tyler Moore is no different. Most TV shows take time to find their footing. Now. This is an iconic first episode. There. There's no doubt about it, this script is brilliant. I wish that every episode this Season was as brilliant as this first one. But most TV shows take time, and mostly that is because of characters.

Tony Maietta:
For a good example is Ted. Ted in this first. In this first episode is pretty much a nothing.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Character. I mean, he's such a caricature. Because really, Ted Knight hadn't had time to develop this character. They are all pretty much sketches. You know, I think the one who really is not a sketch and who really is kind of becoming fully formed. Besides Cloris. Besides Phyllis. Because Phyllis is set from day one.

Tony Maietta:
Phyllis is perfect. Yeah, that great line when Mary comes back after getting the job and Phyllis has news that Mary. That Mary's fiance called and she hasn't told her yet. And Bess blurts it out, and Cloris goes, that was mother's news. Bess. And she just holds that look. And Mary's like, phyllis, Phyllis. And she's so pissed at Bess for spoiling her news.

Tony Maietta:
Cloris Leachman had it. But I think even, you know, even Rhoda, who, by the way, did you notice in watching this pilot when Rhoda's outside the window washing it, that there's no water in that bucket? She's basically miming it in the. No, I didn't notice that there's no water. So she's doing her audition. But yeah, it's so funny. So most of the characters are just kind of sketches. Murray. Same thing.

Tony Maietta:
They definitely developed as time went on. But that's true in any show. But it's. It. It's particularly true of Ted in that makeup bib. He always had a makeup bib in the first. First season a lot. Because what they're trying to say was, this man's a child.

Tony Maietta:
It's like a child's bib. So he's got a makeup bib. He's a bib. Thank God that that went away.

Brad Shreve:
I agree.

Tony Maietta:
Do you know who my very favorite character in this pilot is? See, I call it the pilot. Do you know who my very favorite character in this first episode is? Brad.

Brad Shreve:
I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
Bill. Do you know who Bill is?

Brad Shreve:
Her.

Tony Maietta:
I'm pulling her. Hazel. Frederick on you.

Brad Shreve:
Her ex. Fiance.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, Mikey. Favorite character. Because we never have to see him again. That's why I like him.

Brad Shreve:
I hated him. I hated him.

Tony Maietta:
Well, there's an interesting story about Bill. So anyway, I guess we don't really set up the. The story of this episode, but as we know, Mary Tyler Moore leaves Roseburg and comes to Minneapolis to start a new life in Minneapolis because her relationship with her fiance Ended. He was. He's a doctor. And at the second part of this episode, he comes to visit and you know, the act, the character Bill was considering, they were considering making him a reoccurring character in the show. But here's what happened. The actor playing Bill, an actor named Angus Duncan, he got some changes on during one of the rehearsals.

Tony Maietta:
You know, you get changes in a TV show, a TV series, writers are changing, they're fine tuning things, so you're gonna get changes. He apparently didn't like his changes and he threw the script on the floor. Now who's helming the show? Two writers. You don't do that to writers. Everybody was shocked because they actually got in his face and said, you do not treat the work on this show like that. So he really pissed them off. They got into. They almost got into a physical altercation.

Brad Shreve:
Well, okay, hold on a second. Where is Angus today?

Tony Maietta:
Exactly?

Brad Shreve:
He had the opportunity to have a recurring character which could eventually have wound him up as a, you know, a regular cast member. Who knows? You never know what's gonna happen.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. You know, so.

Brad Shreve:
And he was a child and he blew it.

Tony Maietta:
So.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, that's actually.

Tony Maietta:
I like hearing that, you know, so they lesson to. To aspiring actors out there. Don't get in the face of your ep. If you're lucky enough to be on a TV show, take your changes and say, thank you, I will learn them. You don't get up in his face and cause an altercation because you know what? You're not going to be asked back. And yeah, bye, bye, Bill. He never came back.

Brad Shreve:
And what I love about his character is Mary stood up to him. Mary could be timid, but when it came to that, she said no. Yeah, I felt like that was new.

Tony Maietta:
That's a beautiful moment. That whole brush off that she gives him is really beautiful. When she says, I say a lousy goodbye, it's like, oh, you know, take care of yourself. I think I just did. It's so well written. It's.

Brad Shreve:
That was a brilliant line.

Tony Maietta:
It's moving. You get it. You get this is not a woman, you know. Yes, she is. She can be timid and unsure, but you don't push her around. You're not going to treat her badly. And the other thing I love about this, the end of this episode is the fact that it ends with Rhoda coming in to talk. And that tells you right there that they're going to be friends.

Tony Maietta:
You know, that that sets it right up that this is not going to be an adversarial relationship. They're actually going to become buddies and very important. And I just love this, this show. This episode is so well constructed. I mean, they had a long time to write it, so you have to give them, you know, you have to realize that. But it's so well constructed because it introduces all the important characters and gives them just enough fun, delicious personality traits that you want to see more. That's the way I feel about it.

Brad Shreve:
And before we go on to the next one, there's something I did really appreciate in this show. They did this whole exposition where about Mary's background, but she was telling Rhoda and it didn't sound like exposition. It sounded like a conversation, which is really hard to do. Yeah, it was believable. Because of Phyllis's personality.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, exactly. Because Phyllis has to help everybody. That's so true. Phyllis is the rescuer, you know, and I love that. And it's funny as you. As their, their relationship progresses with Mary's relationship with Phyllis progresses and those roles become reversed. In fact, Phyllis even says it at one point later in the series. You know, you're the single woman.

Tony Maietta:
You know, when you came here, I felt so bad for you, you poor thing. I loved it. And now you're the one who feels bad for me, which isn't true. But that's so true. You get that in Phyllis. You get that from the character and you get that here in this episode. You get just enough to make it interesting, to make you want to keep coming back. So that's the end of love is all around the very first episode of the first season.

Tony Maietta:
But here's our little bonus because I did say there is one verifiable bad episode of the Mary Tyler Moore show and it happens in this first season. It's the final episode of the first season. It's called the 45 Year Old Man, Season 1, Episode 24. And I'm not going to give you any more stats on it because I don't want to. I don't want you to watch it because it's not a good episode.

Brad Shreve:
Now I have to watch it because I don't remember.

Tony Maietta:
Well, what happens in the episode is a new station manager. Yet again. There's a new station manager comes to wjm, wants to make some changes and he decides lose the problem. So he fires Lou and Mary steps in on Lou's behalf and appeals to the owner of the station, who is a former western movie star named Wild Jack Monroe, who is played by none other than friend of the Pod Slim Pickens.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I do.

Tony Maietta:
Who we talked about in Blazing Saddles.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes.

Tony Maietta:
He's a former western movie star who has a ranch outside of Minneapolis. And Mary goes to see him. Okay, so every TV show, even Mary Tyler Moore, has a worst episode. And this one, come on, this has got to be a front runner for this because it's just not a good episode. It's. It's. You can, you can kind of tell too, there was major surgery done on this episode throughout the season because they just could not get it right. In fact, it was shot and reshot in one form or another over, like, the previous few months.

Tony Maietta:
And one of the unintended results of this patchworking is the fact that Gavin McCloud's weight fluctuates throughout the entire episode because he lost almost £50 during the season. So at the beginning of the episode, he's kind of slim and he looks really good. He looks like Murray got to look. And then in the next scene, he's suddenly about 35 pounds heavier. And you're like, gavin Murray, what'd you have for lunch? What's going on here?

Brad Shreve:
And he got very pear shaped for a while.

Tony Maietta:
He. Well, he started out kind of pear shaped and he lost weight. Then he came back. So. Yeah. So Gavin McLeod's weights fluctuates throughout the whole show. And also another thing that's really. That's really terrible is the set for Slim Pickens house is Mary Richards apartment.

Tony Maietta:
It's so obvious. You're like, what are you people doing? The shag carpeting, the. The. The wallpaper. They thought they could dress it and hide it. No, it's so obviously Mary Richard's apartment. And so you're kind of watching this and you're like, God, what were they thinking when they do this? But to their credit, Brooks and Burns knew it was a flop. They knew it was a bad episode and they saved it till the very, very, very, very end of the show, the series, the season.

Tony Maietta:
Because they're like, we're just gonna sneak this in here and get this over with and hopefully nobody will notice. Well, actually, people did notice, and it actually got a good review.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, really?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, for the last episode of the first season. I don't agree with that reviewer. It's a terrible episode. Every. Every series has a bad episode. There's bad episodes of I Love Lucy, there's bad episodes of Own the Family, Even Mary Tyler Moore has one. But thankfully, they never did this kind of guest star thing again unless it was somebody really noteworthy and made sense. Like Walter Cronkite.

Tony Maietta:
Like Johnny Carson. It wasn't Slim Pickens doing some very strange bad, bad, bad takeoff on his Western career. Which leads us to our next episode, which is Brad's Choice. Brad, you want to bring us into this one?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. This is season three, episode 23, put on a Happy Face. It was written by Marilyn Suzanne Miller and Monica Johnson. It aired February 24th of 1973. I don't know who directed it.

Tony Maietta:
Do you know Jay Zandridge?

Tony Maietta:
Hey, I'm sorry you're so down, kid. I'm not so down. Huh?

Tony Maietta:
What? I'm not so down.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah, you are. I mean, admit it, Mary. Suddenly your life got crummy.

Tony Maietta:
So.

Tony Maietta:
It'Ll get better. It has to. You're not the crummy life type. Oh, truly, you aren't. I am the crummy life type. You're just on a lousy streak. I happen to be on a terrific streak. But soon things will be back to normal again.

Tony Maietta:
Tomorrow you'll meet a crowned head of Europe and marry. I will have a fat attack.

Tony Maietta:
Eat.

Tony Maietta:
300 peanut butter cups and die. That's the way it always is.

Brad Shreve:
There's a reason I chose this episode.

Speaker D:
And.

Brad Shreve:
And one. It just stood out for me. But I heard that, or read that this was Mary Tyler Moore's favorite episode. I don't know if that's true. Yeah, apparently she said it on Larry King, supposedly. But I do know one thing James L. Brooks said, because I watched the interview myself, and he said there were two things that always worked on the show. Mary, come into my office.

Brad Shreve:
And the Teddy Awards.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes. I love me some Teddy Awards. I love the Teddy Awards.

Brad Shreve:
They're always disastrous. It's like Mary's parties.

Tony Maietta:
I love them.

Brad Shreve:
And was this. This was the first one, right? The first time.

Tony Maietta:
No, no, no, no. There was the Teddy Awards in the very first season.

Brad Shreve:
Okay, that I didn't remember.

Tony Maietta:
Well, here's a question for you. Since you love the Teddy Awards so much. Little trivia question for you. How many Teddy Awards did Mary Richards win? Do you know?

Brad Shreve:
One and only.

Tony Maietta:
No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. No, really, she won two. She did win two. Yes, she won this one in this episode, but she won a Teddy Word the very last year of the series. Because everybody wins a Teddy Award except Murray. Very much like Gavin McLeod, who never won an Emmy or was really was never even nominated for an Emmy. Murray doesn't win. So.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, she did win, too. She won two, but it's not. They don't make A big deal of it. They're just all sitting there with their Teddy Awards at the table and somebody says it's a great year for mgm or mgm. Somebody says it's a great year for, for, for wjm, isn't it? So anyway, that's, that was a little trivia for you, but yeah, but I love this episode. I'm so, so thrilled. When you told me you wanted to do it, I was like, thank you. Yes, please.

Tony Maietta:
Because this was the one I would have done if I didn't love my next one just a little bit more. Because this, this episode is so funny. And the person who's funny is Mary Tyler Moore. That's what's so wonderful about this. This woman finally has an opportunity to be hysterically funny. And she is again.

Brad Shreve:
In that James L. Brooks interview that I saw. This is a quote from him. It was just a great thing to take on one of the best looking women in comedy and make her look miserable. And boy, did they.

Tony Maietta:
So do you want to tell us what happens in this episode?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, I'm going to read it just from IMD because it's short and sweet and very easy going to save me time. They said a stained dress, a sprained foot, a bad cold and a hair bump. What else is going to go wrong for Mary before the annual Teddy Awards banquet? And the only other thing I can think of is the eyelash dropping under her face.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, well, I actually have a list of them, which I'll read if you don't mind.

Brad Shreve:
But no, go for it, Go for it.

Tony Maietta:
It's Mary Richards has a very, very, very bad week. Now we know, and this is what's so brilliant about this episode, is Mary Richards is probably one of the most charmed characters in the history of television. You know, Rhoda even says it in this episode. She says, because Mary's having so much bad luck, Rhoda says, you're just having a lousy streak. It's gonna go away. You're not the crummy life type. Tomorrow you'll meet a crown head of Europe and marry. I will have a fat attack, eat 300 peanut butter cups and die.

Tony Maietta:
That's it exactly. Because Mary Tyler Moore isn't the crummy life type. But she has this incredible run of bad luck. And this is what happens. Boy, you people must really love this show if you're still listening, because here you go. She wakes up late, she gets a flat tire, she spills coffee on her sweater, she throws away all the obituaries, her grocery bag Breaks. She gets a hair bump. And you know that this show was written by female writers because men don't know what the hell is a hair bump.

Tony Maietta:
Straight men don't know what the hell a hair bump is. I love that. She sprains her ankle. She gets a cold from soaking her sprained ankle. Her date for the Teddy Awards cancels. The cleaners ruin her dress. So she borrows a dress from Rhoda. She gets a run in her stocking.

Tony Maietta:
Her hair dryer breaks. She leaves her umbrella at the office and it's raining. She steps in a puddle. Her false eyelash comes off. She wins the award. And they spell her name wrong on the award.

Brad Shreve:
Spelled Mary wrong.

Tony Maietta:
Spelled Mary wrong. I love it. You think her streak must be over because she won the award, but then you find out they spelled her name wrong on the award. Do you know that? Here's another trivia for you. Do you know the name of the show that Mary wins the award for? Do you remember?

Brad Shreve:
It was the Sunday something.

Tony Maietta:
The Sunday show. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the same show she creates the following season with Rhoda, so. Oh, Mary's always creating the show called the Sunday Show. No matter what year it is. She's always. That's what they always.

Tony Maietta:
That's what they always do. I love.

Brad Shreve:
Was it a running joke or just a. I just. Continuity error.

Tony Maietta:
I think it was just a continuity error. But what wasn't an error was Mary Tyler Moore won an Emmy for this episode. This is their very first Emmy she won for this show. For the series. Was for this episode. And absolutely so deserving. She is just so wonderfully, wonderfully funny in this episode.

Brad Shreve:
Awesome. And there's another groundbreaking thing in this episode that I don't think ever happened again.

Tony Maietta:
What's up?

Brad Shreve:
Rhoda had a boyfriend show up for the second time.

Tony Maietta:
Jonas.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Good old Jonas.

Brad Shreve:
I don't think they ever did that before she went.

Tony Maietta:
Remember she wants to loan Jonas to marry for the Mary.

Brad Shreve:
And I don't know why Mary didn't take her up on it because. Well, whatever.

Tony Maietta:
Well, she should have because she ends up with Ted.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And horrible to her when she calls.

Tony Maietta:
Me because that Robert Redford looking guy that you want to set me up with. What do you mean, April Fools? What do you mean? It's you. It's so great. I love so many.

Brad Shreve:
One more thing.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
One more groundbreaking thing. I knew there was a second one.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
This is the only episode that didn't show. I can't think of the cat's name at the end did not have the cat at the end.

Tony Maietta:
No, it didn't. What did it have, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
It had Mary saying something that anybody that listens to the show all the way. The end knows saying, porky pigs, I can't do it. That's all, folks.

Tony Maietta:
That's all, folks. There you go.

Brad Shreve:
She did it really well.

Tony Maietta:
The calling card of your going Hollywood podcast, courtesy Mary Tyler Moore and put on a happy face from season three. I love it. Love it. All right, so we're gonna go on to our next favorite episode, which was my choice, and yes, it did edge out put on the happy face by the slightest hair, because it is. I love this show so much. It is from season six, episode nine, number 129 in the series. And it's not Chuckles Bites the Dust. No, it is the one that happens right after Chuckles Bites the Dust.

Tony Maietta:
And it's Ted and Georgette's Wedding, officially called Ted's Wedding, which aired on November 8, 1975. Written by the brilliant David Lloyd, who also wrote Chuckles, and directed by Jay Sandrich. Dearly beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of God to join these people in.

Speaker D:
Long shot.

Tony Maietta:
Does anybody remember what comes next? Well, at Rhoda's wedding, they each read something they'd written themselves. Oh, terrific. Would you like to say something? You mean wing it? Just say what's in your heart, Ted. Oh, right. Mary.

Speaker D:
Georgette, I promise to be a devoted husband and to never give you cause to regret having married such a cluck.

Tony Maietta:
This is like my top, top, top, top. I. I mean, look, we talked about in the last episode about. About how Chuckles bites the dust, gets all the praise, all the hosannas. Yes. In the chronology of the show, this episode is the next one, filmed right after Chuckles. And director Jay Sandrich chose not to direct Chuckles because he wanted to direct this episode, which I think tells you something right there. This is what I love about this episode.

Tony Maietta:
Not only is it hysterically funny, funny, funny episode, just as funny as Chuckles is, but it's character funny. It's not one liners. Sometimes I love Chuckles. The writing is brilliant and the one liners and Chuckles that Murray comes up with are brilliant, but the humor in this episode comes from the characters, and I love that more than anything in the world.

Brad Shreve:
You're absolutely right there. I didn't even think about that as the reason it was funny, but you're right.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it is.

Brad Shreve:
I gotta tell you, this show also made me sad.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah? In what way?

Brad Shreve:
I don't think I enjoyed it. As much as you did.

Tony Maietta:
Really? How come?

Brad Shreve:
I had a lot of laughs. I'm not gonna say it didn't make me laugh. I liked it. But first of all, you know, I've told you before, I never liked Ted as a prominent character. I loved him as the walk on. Do a joke. As I said before, the same way Kramer was originally in Seinfeld. I think Kramer was a great break.

Brad Shreve:
Let's have some laughs. And he's gone. And then when they started developing more in the show, I got tired of Kramer. So that's. That's part of it. Not that I hated Ted. I never. I always thought he always made me laugh.

Brad Shreve:
I just liked him better when he was the walk on. Laugh at him, he goes away. The other thing that made me sad is this is the way Georgia got married. Now, I do love that Mary had a talk with her in the bedroom.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And it was very clear that Georgette was not a victim here.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
She knew what she's getting into, and I love that they did that. But that did bother me, anyway.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I kind of see what you're saying, but, you know, it's that old saying, every pot has a lid. You know, Ted is Georgette's lid or the Georgette's. Ted's lid, or something like whichever way you want to do it. She says she knows. And I think that. I think it's important. I think probably a lot of people felt that way. And that's why I think it's very important that Mary has that talk with her.

Tony Maietta:
And it's also very important that you notice that Georgette puts her foot down with Ted. And that's another thing I love about this episode, because in this episode, Ted has been proposing to Georgette continually. So much so that it's lost all of its import. You know, he.

Brad Shreve:
People basically yawn when he does. Every time he does.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, exactly. He and Georgette lists them off. You know, he did one in the car wash, one in the revolving door. The time you spelled out marry me with your socks on laundry day. I mean, it's that kind of a thing. He's not. It's losing all of its importance, and she's starting to get pissed off. So Mary has Georgette and Ted over to her house for brunch, and she's begging Lou Murray.

Tony Maietta:
She even asked Sue Ann to come to lunch because she doesn't want to spend two hours alone with Ted in her house. But nobody else wants to come. So they're there having brunch, and Ted does It once again with an onion roll in his mouth. And they ignore it. They ignore it completely. And Ted goes, hey, have some respect. And Mary goes, respect for what? And he says, a proposal of marriage. And she says, ted, you proposed with an onion roll in your mouth.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, so then that's where Jo Jett lays down the line. She says, no, you don't mean any of this. You don't mean any of this. And Ted says that he does. So what does Georgette do with that, Brad? You remember she says, ted, we can still get married. She says, we have the blood tests, we have the license, and it's still valid. We can call a minister over here. We can call our friends and have them come over.

Tony Maietta:
What else do we need? And this is the best line. So what do you say, buster? You still want to get married?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. That was awesome.

Tony Maietta:
And she lays down.

Brad Shreve:
It was nice to see her stand up for a second. Yeah, she did that throughout her time on the series.

Tony Maietta:
She does.

Brad Shreve:
She always thought she was a doormat, and then she proved that she wasn't.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. And it's the progression of the series. And I get what you say about Ted, but like I said before, I find Ted Baxter one of the most brilliant comic characters ever created on a sitcom. I. And they gave him so many levels, so much depth from where he started. Remember, we were just talking about in the first episode, he's a child because he's always got a bib on that tells you so much right there. But as we said in the last episode, too, Ted Knight was very upset he was going to leave the show.

Tony Maietta:
He was very upset that his character was so such a caricature. There was no depth. One of the reasons they brought Georgette in was to give him more depth, to give his character the opportunity to show more human traits. Love, jealousy, anger. This is the same thing. Ted's got to grow. So I get what you're saying. I find him brilliant.

Tony Maietta:
I find him touching and humorous and just one of the most brilliant. As I said, one of the greatest comic creations ever. And Ted Knight's talent is so astounding in this. I mean it. Just think about him in this episode. He goes through the gamut of emotions. You know, he's blase, he's nervous, he's scared, he gets sad. Remember when he asked his mother to come?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And his mother says she. Why can't his mother come to his wedding?

Brad Shreve:
She's going to wash her hair.

Tony Maietta:
She's got to wash her hair.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I felt for him. My heart crushed.

Tony Maietta:
Does that not tell you what, you know, what Ted went through in his life. I mean, it's just. That's such a brilliant touch. And he gets. But he gets over it because he says, he says, well, we can save her a piece of cake. Can't we marry? And Mary goes, cake? Come on. This whole wedding was put together in a half an hour. You can't expect too much preparation on that kind of notice.

Tony Maietta:
And then what happens? Ding dong. And who?

Brad Shreve:
Sue Ann shows up fully prepared, no surprise for the wedding, with a cake and decorations and she's got a hat.

Tony Maietta:
She'S got a bower of flowers, she's got a corsage for Ted. And she goes, Mary, dear. And she's fully ready for the wedding. It's such. It's such a great setup. Why I love this. I love this episode so much. And Georgette is upset because she doesn't have a white dress.

Tony Maietta:
And suanne says, wait, let's see. Married at White Sailors Delight. No, that's not. It's so funny. It's so great because remember, she even screams at them. Now what are you people all standing around, your thumbs up your noses for? We've got a wedding. Move it. So suanne's in control.

Tony Maietta:
And of course Mary calls, Mary calls Lou, and Mary calls Mary to come to the wedding. And do you remember where, where they, where the guys are when she calls them?

Brad Shreve:
Murray was doing the coaching for his son's little League.

Tony Maietta:
Right, right. Murray's at his son's game, scrubby sweatsuit. So he shows up in a muddy sweatsuit. And Lou, of course, was at the bar watching the game. So Merrick convinces them to come and they call the minister and Brad, who is the minister who shows up?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, this guy actually, very. Just before he became a star and a show that I know you love. John Ritter.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, John Ritter. One year before Three's Company. So we're not going to hold it against him yet. Yes, John Ritter, who's, you know, nothing against John Ritter. John Ritter was a wonderful actor, a wonderful comedic actor. Brilliant. Lucy. There's another Lucy moment.

Tony Maietta:
Lucy loved John Ritter. She thought John Ritter. And he was, he was. It's just. The show is terrible.

Brad Shreve:
She even hosted a special on about Three's Company.

Tony Maietta:
She did, she did.

Brad Shreve:
She.

Tony Maietta:
Because she loved John Ritter. So I absolutely am not throwing any shade at John Ritter's talent. He was a very, very talented man, you know, died much too soon. But it's funny because the minister also was doing something. What was he Doing Brad, you remember.

Brad Shreve:
He was playing tennis.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. So it's appropriate you wear white.

Brad Shreve:
And did he hold this tennis racket the whole time?

Tony Maietta:
Well, bright on my backhand. Grew in my forehand. This show is so genius. And again, all this comes out of character. What's funny about this show. What's funny about this show is that Sue Ann shows up at the door fully prepared for a wedding. That's her character with 30 minutes notice. It's so funny.

Tony Maietta:
What's funny is that Ted flim flaming about the wedding, Georgette standing up and saying, you know, to Ted about the proposals. It's so funny. And what's really, really funny about that is that, yes, he shows up. John Ritter shows up in a tennis. In tennis whites to perform the ceremony. And he's never done it before.

Brad Shreve:
He had just been ordained.

Tony Maietta:
He'd just been ordained. And that's why suanne says, then it's appropriate you should wear white. So. And my favorite. There's a couple of my favorite things, but again, from character and to me, the funniest moment in the entire episode, the throwing of the bouquet because Sue. Because George. Jack goes, okay, catch. Aims it towards Mary, and Sue Ann jumps in at the last minute and grabs it out of Mary's hand.

Brad Shreve:
It was a big leap, too.

Tony Maietta:
It was a big, okay, catch. And Sue Ann goes right in there and grabs this charact. It's the characters. It's so genius.

Brad Shreve:
This show is extremely funny. I laughed through the whole thing. So it's going to sound like I'm nitpicking. I probably am. There's. There's something else that bothered me about this episode. And then there's something I really liked about this episode. The thing that bothered me is when the show started, you had Rhoda and Phyllis, and when they went away, the show became very insular.

Brad Shreve:
Now, one thing great about the show was it showed work as a family and people coming together, getting to know their friends at work, which does happen. But it became too insular, in my opinion. Nobody else had any other friends. When Ted and Georgette was going to get married, she said, we can have all our friends here in 30 minutes. And it was all just the few people, the main cast from wgm, that bothered me that it became that insular.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
What I really loved in this episode, and this is in defense of Ted and probably missed a lot of people, is when they asked Ted why he keeps asking Georgette why he keeps. Why he keeps asking Georgette to marry him in his naivete way.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Despite him being a pompous ass and a bumbling idiot. He says because it makes her happy. And you can see in Ted's mind what's wrong with that.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah, no, it's absolutely true. See, you did find something nice about. Oh, yes, I get your point about the insolent about making insular characters. But you know, they tried. I don't know if you remember this, but do you remember Penny Marshall? Do you remember Penny Marshall, Mary's neighbor Paula?

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And her roommate, Mary Kay Place. They tried to give Mary new neighbors when she moved into her new high rise apartment. They tried to introduce a new Rhoda. And I don't think Mary Kay plays was a new Phyllis, but they were tried. They did try to bring some new characters in, but the audience made it clear that they liked what they had. And I don't, I don't know, I don't feel it gets too insular because I feel like I love the workplace is your family theme. And I think that was the natural progression of the show. I find it wonderful.

Tony Maietta:
I hate shows where you don't know what a character does for a living. You know, how do you have. How do you have this fabulous apartment or how do you have this fabulous house, Anne Marie. And you're an actress and you do jobs every once in a while. I mean, how do you. You know, there's a lot of shows where you're not really sure what the person does for a living. You know, what Mary does and you know, what pride she takes in what she does because all of her friends are at her work and the workplace. Family dynamic, I think is wonderful.

Brad Shreve:
And I think she carried that over from the Dick Van Dyke show because that was groundbreaking in the sense that almost like half an episode was his home life and the other half was his work life, which is reality.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
We have our family at work and then we have our family at home. And I think that was the first time. It was not the first time. It was the first time. I think it was done really well. Unlike I think is last time I said this. Leave it to Beaver. Where did dad go to work? I don't think it was ever said.

Brad Shreve:
He left the house and then he came home. Same thing with so many of the other shows.

Tony Maietta:
Right, Right. Well, you know, in Dick Van Dyke too, you know, I don't want to blow our Dick Van Dyke wad in case we ever do an episode on Dick Van Dyke. But you know that Mary, Mary's role in Dick Van Dyke was built up because People loved her, you know, she wasn't. Laura was not supposed to be have such a large role. In fact, you know, Rosemarie got a little pissed off about it because she's like, where's this, you know, this 25 year old chick is coming and stealing my show? This is supposed to be Rosemary. Well, it's called the Dick Van Dyke Show, Rosemarie, but still, you know, so it's only because people responded so to Mary Tyler Moore that the part of Laura Petrie grew and suddenly it did become a 50. 50 home life, work life.

Brad Shreve:
Well, she was adorable.

Tony Maietta:
She was adorable. And she's. Well, she's Mary Tyler Moore. She's the reason we're doing this. She's the reason we're doing this episode. So just one final thing, you know, so when Ted and Georgette do exchange their vows, they're not really sure what to do because this wedding was put together in 30 minutes. And Georgette says that at Rhoda's wedding, which I love the call out to Rhoda, they repeated vows they wrote themselves. Oh, let's do that.

Tony Maietta:
So of course Georgette says a few lines which are beautiful. And then it's Ted's turn. Ted, just say what's in your heart. Sue Ann says. And so he goes, all right. And he puts his head back and.

Brad Shreve:
He says, murray, once again, Murray's writing his lines.

Tony Maietta:
So Murray comes in and whispers, intense ear. And this is. These are Ted's wedding vows. Georgette, I promise to be a devoted husband and to never give you cause to regret having married such a cluck. And Gavin McLeod delivers them in those short little bursts. So Ted doesn't realize what he says until he said it.

Brad Shreve:
And it's just the look that Sue Ann gives him.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, my God. And Lou laughs. Of course, there's a one shot of Mary of just going, Mary, oh, I love this episode. I love, love, love it. It's probably my. It's not my very favorite, but it's so close to the top. This whole. You know what? When people ask me for what episodes they should watch the Mary Tyler Moore Show, I tell them just watch the entire sixth season.

Tony Maietta:
Because from. From Edie Gets Married, which is the first episode to the final one, this show does not miss a beat. Yes, Chuckles is in there as well. Mary's father's in there. Mary Richard falls in love this show. It is absolutely brilliant. The fifth and the sixth year of this show are. You can't touch them.

Tony Maietta:
I throw the fourth in there too. You cannot touch them. And that's why I love this show. This show was so. Was just flying at this point. And you know, it's, it's. It's. There's a reason why it's so iconic and I love this episode.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, there's very few shows that you can't. It's hard to. As we've said many times, it's hard to pick the best episodes for the show because it's. It's a show that has so many great episodes.

Tony Maietta:
But all good things must come to an end. Which brings us to our final. Final choice. What is our final episode, Brad? Well, I kind of already told everybody, but you tell us again.

Brad Shreve:
It's season seven, episode 24, and is an entire series. It is episode number 168, right? The last show.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. And that's what it's called.

Brad Shreve:
March 19, 1977.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Written by Alan Burns, James L. Brooks, Ed Weinberger, Stan Daniels, David Lloyd and Bob Ellison. And directed by, again, Jay Sandridge.

Speaker D:
Now, as I was saying, when the ratings are as bad as they are on the 6 o' clock news, you have to decide where the problem is. Is it in front of the camera or behind the camera? It's not exactly a science, but I have to go with my instincts. Ted, you're staying. And the rest of you guys, I'm gonna have to let go. Just a second.

Tony Maietta:
Coleman.

Speaker D:
These people are my friends. I spent a lot of years with them. They mean a lot to me and a lot more than any job as.

Tony Maietta:
An anchorman at wjm.

Speaker D:
Ted, what's the point? The point is this, Coleman. If I were getting fired, these people were ready to go down the line for me. I think that's the least I can do for them. Either they stay or I'm quitting. Ted, I wish you would reconsider.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, I'll stay. Now, I guess there's what I want to say about this episode. There this. And we talked a little bit about this in our Green Acres episode. Having a final episode of a TV show was incredibly rare. The very first TV show to do this from. And I've researched this, and if I'm wrong, it's not my fault. But I really believe this is true because I have more than one source here was the Fugitive.

Tony Maietta:
The Fugitive had a final summation because the Fugitive, the entire series is about trying to find the man who really killed his family. So that's how it's going to end. Of course you're not going to leave him. He's not going to end. Well, the Sopranos ended in the diner. So anyway, but. So that made sense. But there was no wrapping up episode to I Love Lucy.

Tony Maietta:
There was no final episode to Father Knows Best. There was no final episode to the Dick Van Dyke show where, you know, everybody got fired or Rob and Laura moved away. This was very rare. So the fact that the Mary Tyler Moore show did this really first, and it became a trope, it became a tradition of every single sitcom basically, since from MASH to Friends to Everybody Loves Raymond, they all do it now. Mary Tyler Moore really was first.

Brad Shreve:
Well, and I wonder if it really, with the Fugitive is why it became such a thing. Because Fugitive was never a huge hit. It only lasted, what, two, three seasons? It wasn't. It was never a real popular show, but that final episode was huge. Right, because everybody wanted to know. Everybody wanted to see him catch the one armed man. So explosive. They knew it was gonna be the final episode.

Brad Shreve:
And I wonder if that's what led the producers to say, we might have something here.

Tony Maietta:
No, I don't. I don't think so. Because, I mean, the history of this show. Burns and Brooks show us they thought out things very, very carefully. They always had things mapped out. And I think they thought, we've got to bring this show to an end because that's the way they thought. That's what was so groundbreaking about this show. This show had very few continuity errors in it because storylines played out.

Tony Maietta:
You know. Yes. Mary's parents suddenly disappeared after two episodes. You know, suddenly we don't see Nanette February anymore. Okay, fine. Those things happen. But there was always a through line, as we said, the characters grew, things change, people, events happened in people's lives. Lou got divorced.

Tony Maietta:
Marie adopted a son. Ted and Georgette got married. So that's the way Burns and Brooks thought. And so I think when they realized you, yes, this was indeed going to be the last year, a decision they made, and who exactly made that decision is kind of up for debate. Mary Tyler Moore. They always said it was Mary's idea, but Mary Tyler Moore said in her one of her books that it wasn't her idea. She was actually very upset about it. It was actually Burns and Brooks.

Tony Maietta:
Regardless, everybody knew it was time to wrap up the show. So they knew they wanted to have an appropriate ending. They didn't want to just end the show. They wanted to have some kind of a wrapping up. And so brilliant, this show. And it's. It's mythic. I mean, this last episode, and it's funny because we talked a little bit about Last episodes.

Tony Maietta:
Alice had a last episode. We talked about it in our Alice episode. And you said you wished that episode had been more like the Mary Tyler Moore last episode.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, the Alice episode was proof that the. The final episode does not always work well. It was a good.

Tony Maietta:
The last episode of Alice was good, but it was just too pat. It was a very. A very sitcom ending. Things happen to everybody at the same time, and everybody's happy. It just wrapped things up in a bow. That's not the case.

Brad Shreve:
God. Mary didn't do the flashbacks.

Tony Maietta:
Mary didn't do any. Well, she did flashbacks with a. With the episode like three before this with Johnny Carson. But that was a very funny episode. No, Mary Tyler Moore. The writers did. What the writers did in this show is they pushed the envelope. They asked questions.

Tony Maietta:
They made it real. That's the key word. Real people get fired in real life. And what's brilliant about the Mary Tyler Moore show and the last show plot is it's real with a twist. How beautifully ironic is it that the person who is the problem of the WJM 6 o' clock news is the only one not to be fired? That's just life. That's what life does to you. You know what I mean? It's. It's Chinatown.

Brad Shreve:
That was a brilliant twist. I think the whole country probably laughed hysterically at the same moment.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's funny because even with all these writers and Brooks and Burns called up all the writers and said, do you want to contribute to this last episode? And these are the. These are the writers who got the credit. You know, the original script, it took a while to come together. And the original script didn't even have Sue Ann or Georgette in it.

Brad Shreve:
Wow.

Tony Maietta:
I know. Because they figured out, how are we going to get Sue Ann in here? So they. He also fires Suanne, but you're like, why? She's a news hand. By this point, her own show had been canceled, so. Okay, but they had to. Yeah, but. So they. They did.

Tony Maietta:
So they had to do a lot of rewriting. But I love. I love this episode. Yes. Because it's such an ironic, real twist. But of course, it doesn't have flashbacks, but it does have a kind of a flashback. And what is the flashback in this episode? If you want to call it a flashback.

Brad Shreve:
Lou wants to cheer up Mary, so he dips into the slush fund and flies out Rhoda and Phyllis. I can never remember her name. Rhoda and Phyllis.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. So everybody gets fired except for Ted, because there's yet again, another new station manager has taken over WJM and he's gonna fix the 6 o' clock news. And he figures the problem is behind the camera. And, and you know, you know who plays that? Who plays the new station manager? Did you recognize him, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah. You recognize him. I know he was Vincent Gardenia. Thank you. I couldn't remember his name.

Tony Maietta:
Vincent Gardenia. He's most famously, I think from Moonstruck, but he was also an all in the family and also.

Brad Shreve:
Oh God, he was the guy next door that cooked. Okay.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, he was Frank Lorenzo and All in the family. Yes. And also featured in this episode has to be the luckiest bad child actor in the history of sitcoms. Robbie Wriste, AKA Cousin Oliver, the child who destroyed the Brady Bunch. He is Ted's son. Ted's adopted son. But anyway, so they're all fired and Mary's depressed. So Lou dips into petty cash and he produces Phyllis and Rhoda.

Tony Maietta:
And it's such a lovely moment. So perfect, not overplayed. And you know, it's funny, we talked about Cloris and Chloris's Marlon Brando esque ways and for one final time during the filming of this episode, she got into it with Jay Sandridge again because he had to give her one final Cloris. Because when they first arrive and they're kind of jockeying for position as to, you know, Mary's eyes are closed and she's counting and Lou's getting her surprise ready and Phyllis keeps getting in front of Rhoda and they keep moving back and forth. And he said, clora, stop doing that. And Cloris Leachman said, it wasn't me, Jay, it was Phyllis. Which pretty much lets you know there. So, yeah, that's so beautiful when they come back and the little one upmanship they have with each other is brilliant.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Do you want to tell people a little bit about what that one upmanship is? Well, it's Phyllis and Rhoda have.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it's basically. Well, Phyllis, as Phyllis always is. She made it all about her. Wasn't about Mary, it was about Phyllis. And how can Phyllis make Mary feel better and make it all about her?

Tony Maietta:
Right. Well, what. Well, what happened is Phyllis gets upset because Rhoda says to Mary, how you doing, Mary? Of course you are. Mary's just got fired. She's. They're there for that. And Phyllis goes, isn't that like you, Rhoda? We came in all that way from the airport and you didn't ask me how I was or what was going on in my life? And Rhoda goes, I'm sorry, Phyllis. I'm sorry.

Tony Maietta:
How's Bess? How's Lars? And Phyllis says, oh, well, Lars is dead, Rhoda. And Rhoda says, same old Lars. Because Rhoda doesn't know that Lars is dead. Which is kind of a little bit of a.

Brad Shreve:
That was a little nitpick I had. I can't imagine Mary wouldn't have told her on the phone.

Tony Maietta:
Wouldn't have told her, but, yeah, she goes, I thought surely you knew, Phil. And Rhoda says, phyllis, why don't you tell me about Lars? And Phyllis says, I was afraid you'd want to come to the funeral.

Brad Shreve:
That was a great line, Sarah.

Tony Maietta:
Phyllis, you haven't changed. And then. So to get Rhoda back, what is. What does Phyllis do?

Brad Shreve:
She asks her, oh, she asked how Joe is.

Tony Maietta:
How's Joe? And she goes, oh, well. Rhoda says, oh, well, Joe and I have split up. I thought you'd heard. And Phyllis goes, I had. It's so. Again, it's character comedy makes it so funny. These two have had this kind of adversarial friendship. They've been frenemies since day one, and it's played out so beautifully here.

Brad Shreve:
It really was, though. What was? With Phyllis's hair. But anyway, you know what's great about this show is your emotions run the gamut. You're practically in tears. You're laughing, you're shocked. It just was everywhere.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And it was, like I said, like, right down to the end. Lou Grant was Lou Grant, but he did get emotional in a Lou Grant way, but he held it back in the bus.

Tony Maietta:
I treasure you people. Edner, is that line reading? Apparently, he gave it that same line reading during the first rehearsal. And Jay Sandrich said to him, ed, perfect. Don't do it that way again until we film. Because he didn't want to lose that. And I mean, this was. As you can imagine, these people had spent seven years together. This was an incredibly emotional week for all of them.

Tony Maietta:
You know, Mary Tyler Moore said that everybody was breaking out crying all the time. It was very hard to get through it. It was very hard to get through the entire thing. And yet they do it. It's so real because the emotions are right there and they keep that emotion at bay, you know, right up until the final scene when Ted. Brilliant. So it's their last night. It's their last newscast, and they're all waiting for Ted sign off.

Tony Maietta:
And instead of good night and good News. Ted decides he wants to pay tribute to the. To the people who are leaving, the people who have been fired. And he lists them all off. And he says he's trying to think of an appropriate thing to say, to say to these people to let him know what was in his heart. And what does he say, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
It's a long, long way to Tipperary. Tippier. You say it.

Tony Maietta:
He. He quotes from a World War I song. It's a Long way to Tipperary It's a long way to go Good night and good news. This is Ted Baxter. So, yes, it's. It's the non sequitur of it. It's the non sequitur of it. So he's.

Tony Maietta:
Instead of saying some heartfelt thing, he quotes from this archaic song from World War I, which makes no sense.

Brad Shreve:
None.

Tony Maietta:
On the surface, it makes no sense. But when you really think about it. It's a long way to Tipperary It's a long way to go It's a long way to Tipperary to the sweetest girl I know who could that be? Goodbye Piccadilly Farewell Leicester Square It's a long, long way to Tipperary and my heart's right there well, what's Tipperary? Tipperary is wjm. So, I mean, maybe I'm reading a lot into this, but I find that so moving because you think it's this ridiculous non sequitur, but when you really think about it and they sing it as they walk out of the. Of the newsroom, it does have a little bit of an emotional punch.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, it does. I will say I've always wondered why that song was picked. I'm going to accept your.

Tony Maietta:
Your set my theory thing there.

Brad Shreve:
I'm going to accept your theory. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it's just. It's such a beautiful thing. And when they have the, you know, the group hug at the end when they can't leave the room, and they do the Kleenex Shuffle, which.

Brad Shreve:
God, that's.

Tony Maietta:
Which really happened because someone says, we need it. They're all hugging each other, holding on to each other in real life and the characters. And there. Someone says we need a Kleenex or someone. Mary's desk. And they all move as a group. They move like an amoeba. And they called it the Kleenex Shuffle, which really happened in rehearsal.

Tony Maietta:
That was an improv. And that really happened up until that last moment when she, you know, where they all leave and they're singing and she turns back and looks in the newsroom and then turns out the lights. It's just. Yeah, it's Such an emotionally moving, beautiful, Beautiful moment in 30 minutes. Less than 30 minutes. Gorgeous.

Brad Shreve:
Yes, yes. They didn't have to do an hour long special.

Tony Maietta:
No, they didn't.

Brad Shreve:
Just.

Tony Maietta:
They did. They didn't.

Brad Shreve:
Let's do a normal show but end it there.

Tony Maietta:
So that was it. That was it. We also know, of course, that wasn't it, because there were so many reunions, there were so many remembrances. There was a really, really bad. Marion wrote a movie, which we talked about in our last episode. But I think what's important about this series and it set a standard that to this day, this is 2025. Okay, now we're talking 55 years. Is that right? Is my math correct?

Brad Shreve:
55 years ago, that first episode aired and I figured that out and I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe it.

Tony Maietta:
So 55 years later, it is still the benchmark. Yes. People love Seinfeld. I love Seinfeld. People love Friends. There have been many, many brilliant shows since the Mary Child of the Moore Show. But I'm sorry, the Mary Tyler Moore show is the benchmark. At least it is for this podcast co host.

Tony Maietta:
It is the one that everybody aspires to because so many, because of the writing, because of the casting, because of the fact of the issues that were addressed, but not in preachy ways, as these people were real. And that's why there were so many reunions, and that's why there were so many, you know, retrospectives, because people didn't want to let go of these people. And when we finally lost Betty White, the last, last man standing, it was like saying goodbye to all of them because, yeah, we've lost them all over the past 55 years. She was the last one to go. And it just kind of hits at home.

Brad Shreve:
And this is said too often, but this show really is timeless. I mean, some of you young watching it today will wonder, what is that typewriter thing? And what is that file cabinet? And, yeah, stuff like that. But we all know work environment and things that happen. Everybody can relate to the show.

Tony Maietta:
Yes, yes, absolutely. In the 70s, fashions, yes, are startling and horrifying to see and fun at the same time. But this show does not date as we talked about this earlier, and I kind of said. I don't. I was kind of wrong that all in the Family dated. But there are parts of all in the Family that date.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
That are very data. Because it is so political.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
It was very important to Mary Tyler Moore, to Grant Tinker, to Alan Burns, to James L. Brooks. That this show not be topical. Yes, things are mentioned. Nixon is mentioned. You know, so Johnny Carson is mentioned. But it's touched on. It's not the driving force.

Tony Maietta:
And that was very smart because that makes it timeless. That makes it a classic.

Brad Shreve:
100% agree. 100% agree.

Tony Maietta:
So in addition to numerous nominations, the Mary Tyler Moore show was nominated for 67 Primetime Emmy Awards. It won 29. It won 29 Primetime Emmy Awards. And this record was unbroken until frasier earned its 30th Emmy Award in 2002. However, remember this? Mary Tyler Moore got all those nominations in seven years. Frasier was on for 11. Cheers. Same thing.

Tony Maietta:
On for 11. So they had four more seasons than Mary Tyler Moore did to. To win these Emmys. And they. Everybody, as we said before, too, everybody, every member of the cast, some more than one time won Emmy awards, except for God bless Gavin MacLeod. But Gavin McLeod had the last laugh because he was really the only person who had a hit series after this because A Love Boat ran forever, ever. And I mean, Betty White is an exception to, obviously, the Golden Girls. But Mary Tyler Moore tried many more times.

Tony Maietta:
She tried with two variety shows. She tried with two sitcoms. She just could not capture that lightning in the bottle, you know, they tried with that horrible Marion Rota TV show. I'm sorry, that horrible Marion wrote a TV movie which we talked about in our last.

Brad Shreve:
Supposed to be a pilot.

Tony Maietta:
Supposed to be a pilot. They couldn't recapture it. They couldn't recapture it.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
And this show was also honored with a Peabody Award in 1977 and, you know, the Peabody Award, that ain't anything to sneeze at, you know. And in presenting the award, the Peabody committee stated that Mary Tyler Moore and MTM Enterprises had, quote, established the benchmark by which all situation comedies must be judged and lauded. The show for a consistent standard of excellence and for a sympathetic portrayal of a career woman in today's changing society. End quote. So it ain't just me saying it. It's the Peabody people. So I'm going to take them at their word, too. You know what I'm saying?

Brad Shreve:
I. Yeah, that's. That's a big wow right there.

Tony Maietta:
So, Brad, wow. Is there anything else we want to say about the Mary Tyler Moore show or the podcast? Anything at all?

Brad Shreve:
Well, I just want to end it with my usual. Hello, new listeners. Glad you're here. Please subscribe so that you'll know when the next episodes come up and you won't miss one. Longtime listeners, as always, we ask that you rate and review this podcast that gives us some credibility when people come on us and say, hey, there's some folks that like this show.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I think that'd be great. Do it. Well, Brad, that was a lot, but it was sure a lot of fun, too. So I guess there's only one thing left to say. But I don't want to say it. So let's not say goodbye. Let's say it's a long way to Tipperary. It's a long way to go.

Brad Shreve:
No, let's say that's all, folks.

Tony Maietta:
The best cast ever. And as ted knight, Gavin McLeod, Betty White, Georgia Engel, Valerie Harper, and Flora Leachman. Thank you.