Clip: 0:01

Best thing to do is to get your ass out of here. Yeah, but how? Catch the Midnight Express. What's that? It's not a train, it's prison word for escape. Dad, get me out of here. I promise you, Billy. You can drift in here and never know you're gone. You can fade so far out and you don't know where you are anymore or where anything else is. I find loneliness is the physical pain which hurts all over. You can't isolate it in one part of your body. The prosecutor objected to your sentence for possession. He wanted a smuggling conviction and the high court in Ankara reviewed it. High court and anchor reviewed it and there were 35 judges on the high court. 28 voted for a life sentence.

Clip: 1:14

We notified your dad, what do you mean? Billy Live. Billy Live for what? For what? For what? I have 53 days left. I have 53 days left. I have 53 days left. Billy, you're running out of time. If you stay here, you'll die. Jesus Christ, you've got to get yourself together. You've got to get out of here.

Tony Maietta: 1:44

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve: 1:47

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta: 1:51

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve: 1:57

And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta: 2:03

As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve: 2:08

Tony, when you were preparing for this episode watching Midnight Express, did you find yourself laughing as hard as I was laughing? Imdb says it's a dark comedy. It's uproarious. Oh, it's hysterical.

Tony Maietta: 2:28

It's up there with Tootsie. Do they really say that? Does it really say it's a dark comedy?

Brad Shreve: 2:34

It says yes, it lists the different types of film. It is, and it says, dark comedy the first thing on the list.

Tony Maietta: 2:41

I think Billy Hayes would have some disagreement with that.

Brad Shreve: 2:48

I don't think he found five years in a Turkish prison uproariously funny. I'm sure some sick individual. Somewhere found a man biting another man's tongue off.

Tony Maietta: 2:55

Hysterical IMDb. Leave it to IMDb, one step above Wikipedia, which I ain't saying much. We're talking about listener, in case you were wondering. We are talking about Midnight Express today, from Columbia in 1978. And before we go any further, two things Spoiler alert. We got spoiler alerts in this one, so turn us off if you haven't watched Midnight Express. Second one this is Brad's choice. So, brad, you're flying this plane. You are flying this plane. I'm just Helen.

Brad Shreve: 3:26

Hayes stowing away for the ride and winning an Oscar or Miss Daisy in the back.

Tony Maietta: 3:34

Yeah, that's true, that's true, so yeah, so this is interesting. I don't find it comedy. I I saw. I saw Midnight Express. I watched it for this podcast, of course, and I realized that I hadn't seen it in 30 years. I saw Midnight Express. I watched it for this podcast, of course, and I realized that I hadn't seen it in 30 years. And after watching it again, I probably will wait another 30 years to sit down and watch this. I'm going to be in the motion picture home and I'm going to say, oh, maybe I'll give Midnight Express another try, because, wow, it's a tough one, brad, it's a tough one, it's a tough one, it's a tough one, brad, it's a tough one, it's a tough one.

Brad Shreve: 4:07

It is a tough one, definitely, and I don't know how long ago I saw it it may have been decades as well. I just remembered I always thought it was a very powerful movie. I always thought it was an extremely well-done movie. I will admit, brad Davis was one of my first crushes, so that's also why it stuck in my head. But I just remember it being a great film and that's why I never hear anybody talk about it. So I said let's do it.

Tony Maietta: 4:31

You know Brad Davis. What a talent, what a kook from everything I've read about him and his process. What an incredible talent, a man who life was tragically cut short when he contracted HIV and died. Actually, he committed, he committed suicide, but you know he knew he was dying, so euthanasia, I believe, and. But what a tragic end to an incredible talent and incredibly. This sounds weird, but the only reason, the only word that comes to mind when I think of Brad Davis, is adorable. Now, this is a really tough movie and really the only reason I can watch this movie is Brad Davis, both his performance and the fact that I find him so touching and lovable in this movie, even though he kind of plays a little bit of an asshole in this movie. Even though he kind of plays a little bit of an asshole in this movie, what he goes through is so gut wrenching because of Brad Davis, I feel.

Brad Shreve: 5:31

Yes, To think that he was a new talent. It wasn't his first. This was his first big one.

Tony Maietta: 5:37

Oh, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, did you ever see him in Sybil? Sybil was, is really his breakout. Sybil, the TV movie with Sally Field.

Brad Shreve: 5:44

It has been so long since I saw Sybil. All I remember is it had Sally Field in it. I don't remember anything else about it. If you think he's adorable.

Tony Maietta: 5:51

Except the story, obviously. If you think he's adorable in Midnight Express in a Turkish prison, you should see him. Sybil, he plays a young man who plays a clown at children's parties. Now that's either creepy or adorable. Parties Now that's either creepy or adorable. With Brad Davis, it's adorable, and he's in love with Sally Field one of her personalities.

Brad Shreve: 6:09

He's not sure which. I'm not sure I want to see it. I am terrified of clowns, absolutely terrified, and so do I want to see Brad Davis. I got to tell you there was a festival in Echo Park one day and I was riding the subway and a clown got on and he sat right in front of me and started cruising me. It was the most terrifying moment of my life.

Tony Maietta: 6:36

You've heard of the day the clown cried. Brad experienced the day the clown cruised.

Brad Shreve: 6:44

But you know, if it was Brad Davis, I probably would have said let's go.

Tony Maietta: 6:49

I was going to say. And Brad Davis was not the first choice, he was not the studio's choice, for sure. And the studio you know who? The studio's first choice to play Billy Hayes was?

Brad Shreve: 7:00

Mr Richard.

Tony Maietta: 7:01

Gere, that's right. That's right. And the studio really wanted Gere. And there's some funny stories about Gere, that's right. That's right. And the studio really wanted Gere and there's some funny stories about Gere which we can get into. But Gere dropped out and Parker Alan Parker, who directed this film really wanted Davis. He said that Davis's, particularly his courtroom scene was so gut-wrenching and so moving and he was so vulnerable that he knew he had the right actor and he was relieved that he didn't have to deal with Richard Gere.

Brad Shreve: 7:27

And do you know the story about Brad Davis's first meeting with them?

Tony Maietta: 7:31

No, tell me about it. I'd love to hear this.

Brad Shreve: 7:33

He lived in North Hollywood was driving to the studio, his VW broke down. Oh yes, I do know this. He then ran for five miles sweaty.

Tony Maietta: 7:40

Oh yes, I do know this.

Brad Shreve: 7:41

He then ran for five miles, sweaty, huffing and puffing, popped his head in and said sorry I'm late and they were so impressed at how vulnerable he was that it carried through.

Tony Maietta: 7:54

There are no accidents. No, no, no. Now, if something like that had happened to me when I was auditioning, they'd say sorry, get out of here, or would you have gone. I think it was two hours late. Would you even showed up next? Yeah, I would have. Yeah, absolutely okay, I would have gone.

Tony Maietta: 8:12

Please, any, any port in a storm um you know, it's funny because that, yeah, he brings such, he brings such those qualities to him that we recognize. You know, and we were talking a little bit about this earlier about it is it is june, it is pride month, um, and we kind of hinted that this was a Pride movie. But I think you and I both agree we were totally wrong about that. I was watching this. I'm like no, I was wrong.

Tony Maietta: 8:33

The only way it can be stretched is the fact that, yes, brad Davis is a bit of a gay icon because of the fact that he frequently played gay roles I mean, the most notorious of which, of course, is Carell, the Fassbinder film that he did, which is insane but he also played Ned in the first production of the Normal Heart, larry Kramer's play before he died, and Brad Davis was bisexual.

Brad Shreve: 9:01

So, yes, there are definitely some, there's some gay elements to aura, to the brad davis persona, but I don't think this film is like is a pride film it's a great film, but it's not a pride film no, after we talked and I I was thinking about the movie I'm like you know what we're gonna have to give the listener an apology because this isn't a pride film in any way.

Brad Shreve: 9:22

I mean, even if the sex scene in the film was more graphic than it was, and you know it was like lightning fast and and nothing more than longing looks in each other's eyes there's no even if it was longer, it still would not have been correct for pride, because just because two men are in prison and need each other and have sex to kind of comfort each other, doesn't mean they're gay.

Tony Maietta: 9:47

Yeah, and that's not a sex scene. Anyway, it's a misnomer to call that a sex scene, it's a don't have sex scene is what it is.

Tony Maietta: 9:54

The memory of that loomed in my head because when I first saw it I was, you know, 21, 22. I'm like, oh my God, because Brad Davis is so beautiful and I remember it clear as day as a sex scene. I was shocked, just as shocked as I think you were. Well, here's something, here's a funny thing. So to me, that sex scene is when I was acting and I was doing job jobs. One of my favorite job jobs was at the mythic Video West in. The one I was at was in Studio City and it was wonderful, as you can imagine. I loved it and we had as you can also imagine, we had a pretty healthy adult film section.

Tony Maietta: 10:31

But there was this one section that was next to the adult film section, which was for not really softcore but sensual films. There was a company that did these films called Greenwood Cooper. Okay, and these were not sex movies. This was not porn, this was soft, it was the illusion of porn. Every you know. Things were shot, the men were all gorgeous and they were glowing and there was steam in the shot and the shafts of light highlighting body parts, but you never really saw anything. And really bad synthesized music. That's the scene from midnight express. I'm like this is a greenwood cooper movie. This is what this is, because I don't have sex.

Brad Shreve: 11:11

there's no sex no, there there isn't any sex, but like it's so alluded to it, I remember clear as day I would have sworn that they have sex in this movie. Yeah yeah, because I remember watching it for the first time and thinking, oh my god, yeah it was 1978 or whenever I saw it it's.

Tony Maietta: 11:28

It's kind of interesting that that uh it has a reputation and people have this idea of this, of this sex scene, and like no, there's no sex in it. He, you can't even really see anything. It's just it's it's so romantically shot. It really is. I mean, they're doing yoga and the steam and the shafts of light are coming down and their bodies are glistening with sweat and you're like, oh my God, that was hot. Yes, take me to a Turkish prison, but it's just like it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.

Brad Shreve: 11:56

And Lister. This movie was based on a true story, and we have to emphasize the word based. Yeah, because there was a lot that was added into this film. There were location changes, which is kind of normal, and we can get into the production of why there were character changes, because, you know, they took multiple characters and put them into one, which is a norm in a film. None of those negated as being a true story. It's just that they really added some stuff, a lot of violence, and they cut the romance and the sex because Billy Hay said, no, I needed him, we needed each other. It was a long term. He couldn't say that it was love, but it was deeply passionate.

Tony Maietta: 12:41

It was an emotional support. I mean, think about it. You're in a Turkish prison, for God's sake. No-transcript. I Remember Mama.

Tony Maietta: 13:11

I'm not going to bring up George Stevens here, so relax, Brad, but we talked about the fact that memory, just by nature of being memory, of being subjective, is not going to be necessarily gospel truth. It's somebody's memory, so that's one removed. Then you have a screenwriter who Hayes is talking to and he's putting his spin and dramatizing it, so it's one removed there. So, yeah, so that is why it says it's based on a true story. It doesn't say this is a true story, which is very, very important. It was very important. Do we want to tell a little bit about the stories about Midnight Express, brad, and so people have an idea about what we're talking about, since we've been talking all around it.

Brad Shreve: 13:51

Yeah, let me talk about the emotion and then we can talk about the film. Billy Hayes one thing that really upset him is the way the Turkish people were portrayed, and I want to get that out right away. He said he has a love for the turkish people. He said that he was not happy the the film portrayed. It depicted all turks as monsters and it wasn't the film that the turkish people deserved.

Brad Shreve: 14:18

And well, we can talk more about the repercussions of this film on the, on turkey, but yeah I wouldn't get that out, because that is important that we we point out that he's like these people weren't as evil as they were in the movie right the second one is there.

Brad Shreve: 14:32

we're going to talk about a lot of these things that were added, the violence and all that sort of stuff, and he said so much of this film did not happen. But what happened? Was they caught what it felt like. They caught the emotions and the feelings. So maybe he didn't bite a man's tongue out and spit it out and covered in blood, but those are the feelings that he had and I think that's very important to remember as well.

Tony Maietta: 14:59

It is, and I'm the first person to bitch about dramatic license versus dramatic licentiousness, as I call it, but sometimes you need to do that. I think they were. Also, he was in five different prisons and they had to condense it into one. So yeah, of course, characters are going to be combined. There's going to be some license taken when you're telling a dramatic story. I hate it when they go way off the path, and they didn't do that with this, I mean.

Brad Shreve: 15:24

Well, imagine if this was done by Ryan Murphy. First of all, the sex scene would have been amazing, but secondly, it would have been so off the rails.

Tony Maietta: 15:33

Kathy Bates would have been in there somewhere. Jessica Lange would have been in there somewhere, so why don't you tell us a little bit about what? First of all, I want to ask you what exactly is the Midnight Express?

Brad Shreve: 15:45

The Midnight Express is escaping from prisons Most particularly. I don't know if that's a common usage, but it was definitely used in this movie for that particular jail. It's what they called it the Midnight Express.

Tony Maietta: 15:57

Yeah, that's right. What is the film Midnight Express about? What's the plot synopsis?

Brad Shreve: 16:03

Young man in the early 70s named Billyy hayes was boarding a plane. He was flying from turkey back where he'd been on vacation. He was flying home and he, uh, was foolish enough to strap hashish quite a bit of hashish on his body, and was going to board the plane home and the next thing he knew he was surrounded by guns and stripped because they. I don't know what happened in real life, in the movie he was so obvious nervous wreck.

Tony Maietta: 16:34

Yes.

Brad Shreve: 16:34

Well, we could hear his heartbeat.

Tony Maietta: 16:35

His heartbeat. Yes, part of the soundtrack.

Brad Shreve: 16:37

Yeah, the whole score in the soundtrack is just amazing because, boy, it makes your heart beat. And so he ends up in a Turkish prison and it's not pleasant in any way, shape or form. It's dirty and people are beaten, not treated well. He is sentenced to four years and the prosecuting attorney is not happy with that. So just before his four years is over, the court decides no, we're going to make it a life sentence.

Clip: 17:04

Right.

Brad Shreve: 17:05

And that's when Billy says I got it. Well, that's when Billy says I got to get out of here and his girlfriend convinces him that's the case.

Tony Maietta: 17:12

Right, well, he, they. The prosecutor wasn't happy that it went. He. He wanted to charge him with smuggling, which was a life sentence, and he was charged with possession, and then they changed it. He was almost. He had 53 days left and I think it's 53 days, yeah 53.

Tony Maietta: 17:28

He's called in the court and they're like no, we've changed your sentence, it's to a lifetime. So I mean this is a. I mean, yeah, his breakdown is phenomenal One of the amazing things about Brad Davis. So I'll give a little background about how it all came about. This all started with Peter Guber. Now Peter Guber is a big producer. He's still alive today.

Tony Maietta: 17:50

He was a former head of Columbia. During his reign in Columbia they did things like the Last Picture Show, taxi Driver, the Last Detail, so he did some big movies. Later he teamed up with John Peters and did the original, the first Batman, not the one with Adam West, Batman the movie with Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson. He also produced Rain man. So he had read an article by Billy Hayes in a Long Island newspaper that talked about his experiences and his eventual escape from this Turkish prison in the early 70s. He had not written the book yet. This was a series of articles and he was really intrigued by this premise. So he tracked down Billy Hayes. In England he acquired the film rights and he also acquired a young screenwriter who had never. This was his very first commissioned screenplay. And who was that screenwriter? Brad?

Brad Shreve: 18:42

This guy I don't know if anybody's going to know his name. I think it's something like Oliver Stone. Is that it Oliver Rock, oliver, something like.

Clip: 18:47

Oliver Stone, yeah, something like that.

Brad Shreve: 18:47

Is that it Oliver Rock.

Tony Maietta: 18:48

Oliver Stone, oliver Stone Stone, not Patsy Stone, oliver Stone.

Brad Shreve: 18:51

Hey, if he was on the Flintstones he wouldn't have to change his name.

Tony Maietta: 18:54

So yeah, he, it's true, no-transcript. So Stone worked with Hayes in a hotel room. He met with him in a hotel room in New York City for a week and then he went to London to work on the script and he said he was put in the producer, the director I'm sorry, the director Alan Parker's office in a back room and it was kind of like working. It was very Dickensian. He felt a little bit like Bob Cratchit working on the script.

Tony Maietta: 19:38

But apparently the first draft was so impressive to everybody, everybody said it was a page turner, this first draft. They loved it so much and that's when they decided we're going to make this film. Now, columbia the studio that was going to produce this film, which Goober had been the head of for a while, so he had a relationship with Columbia they thought the film was very anxiety-producing. According to Goober, they tried to persuade him not to make it, so he actually had to use the profits he made from his previous film, the Deep, as collateral for any losses against Midnight Express. Now, the budget of Midnight Express. Do you know what the budget was, brad?

Brad Shreve: 20:20

Yes, and I've heard people refer to it as an indie film because of the situation, even though technically it was not an indie film.

Tony Maietta: 20:28

It was $2.3 million, $2.3 million and Guber says the catering budget for a film today is more than it costs to make this film. And this film grossed ha ha, columbia this well. I should be happy. This film grossed $35 million in 1978. So that is a pretty impressive return on your investment.

Brad Shreve: 20:51

Yeah, I'd say that they turned out pretty well.

Tony Maietta: 20:55

As I said, Guber hired Alan Parker to direct. Parker had only really done his one big movie before. This was Bugsy Malone, which is a gangster film, a musical gangster film featuring children.

Brad Shreve: 21:10

And it's a god-awful film.

Tony Maietta: 21:13

It's not a good movie, but they saw something in it. Look, I got to be honest with you. I am not a huge Alan Parker fan. I mean, he also did Mississippi Burning, a movie I respect. He did Evita, which has some moments.

Brad Shreve: 21:26

He did.

Tony Maietta: 21:27

Fame. I'm not a big Alan Parker fan. However, I do admire, obviously, his artistry and his determination to get this film made and the finished product. But yeah, he's.

Brad Shreve: 21:40

I absolutely loved Fame. I adored Fame. I can't tell you how many times I watched it, but I also haven't seen it since the year it came out, and I doubt I would feel the same today.

Tony Maietta: 21:48

Yeah it's sometimes, yeah, things change. I like Fame, but it's not. He's not one of my. Oh my God. He's not a Sidney Lumet to me, you know. He's not a Roman Polanski to me, he's a very good director. He is a very good director. No shade please to Alan Parker. I'm just saying in my book, not my favorite, but he really achieved an amazing thing with this film.

Brad Shreve: 22:11

As we said before, the studio wanted Richard Gere to play the part of Billy which I can't imagine, because great actor, but he's awfully pretty and maybe he could have pulled it off. I know, was he dropped out, but that was one of the concerns they had was that he was too right but he was hot, hot, hot, hot, hot at this that he was yes he had just done, uh, he had just done blood brothers and I he was just about to do looking for mr goodbar.

Tony Maietta: 22:39

He just had done looking for mr goodbar said that's 77, so this is 78, so he was hot. But gear did what many young actors who were suddenly hot frequently do or did in the 70s he refused to read, he would only take meetings. And this did not sit well with Alan Parker. It didn't sit well with Barbra Streisand in the 80s when she wanted him for Yentl either, but that's another story. So the meetings began well, but his refusal to read and his endless questions really began to grated on Parker and he finally agreed to read. But Parker said it was perfunctory.

Tony Maietta: 23:18

So he started seeing other actors and among the actors he saw were Timothy Bottoms, dennis Quaid which is kind of interesting, and we'll get to that later and Brad Davis. Now Davis, as we said, had only really done Sybil and he was kind of an unknown quantity but Parker really loved. He was really, really pushing for Davis. In fact the studio wanted Gere and Parker wanted Davis and they went back and forth and back and forth and then finally the studio said, no, we're doing Richard Gere. So they actually had a meeting with Davis and told him he didn't get the part, and the producer Marshall said he felt so bad he watched him walk away. And then a month later he went to London and there was Brad Davis getting his wardrobe fittings because Gere dropped out. So there you go, film, film.

Brad Shreve: 24:05

That's film history for you granted, brad davis was not a star in any way. He was not well known at all. He may have been known off broadway, but that was about it, the fact that you had richard gear, who thought he was top of the heap at that point and refused to even read, and then you have this handsome, vulnerable, talented man who ran five miles for his Amazing. Yeah, there's justice in that.

Tony Maietta: 24:33

There is justice in it. There's justice in it, yeah. Also cast in this film is John Hurt. Now, not John Hurd and not William Hurt. John Hurt, the elephant man. I'm a human being, john Hurt, and I have a funny John Hurt story. But first of all, before I do that, did you ever? You probably didn't do this because you weren't an actor. You didn't go to performing arts college. But there's a great tongue twister. There's a fun tongue twister we used to do which I actually did a bit before we started recording and it is John Heard. William Hurt, john Hurt. Wait a minute, let me get that right.

Tony Maietta: 25:17

John Heard, William Hurt, John Hurt.

Brad Shreve: 25:22

I don't know if I could do that. I don't think I would remember it well.

Tony Maietta: 25:26

John Heard, william Hurt, john Hurt, john Hurt, william Hurt, john Hurt, john Hurt, william Hurt, john Hurt. There you go, I got it together. I had to get the rhythm of it Very good.

Tony Maietta: 25:32

It's a little bit of a tongue twister, anyway. So, yeah, so not William Hurt. John Hurt and I have a friend, this is my see ricardo. When she gets around celebrities we call her a movie star murderer because there have been deaths after there have been run-ins with this girl. So anyway, we were. It's a long time ago, we were in new york, we were to play and, uh, william hurt was there. He was in the audience. After the play he came out and all these people were surrounding him getting his autograph. And she says to me who's that there was? Why are those going on there?

Brad Shreve: 26:06

And I said it's William Hurt.

Tony Maietta: 26:08

She's like, oh my God, I love him, we have to get his autograph. So we go up with our playbills and we're like, could you sign it? And she says to him Mr Hurt, I loved you at Midnight Express. And that's when you just slowly back away. Hoping the subway stop is really close by, so anyway. John Hurt yes, he is a British actor. He was the only one to get an Academy Award nomination for this role. He plays the role of Max in this film.

Brad Shreve: 26:43

I'm going to give one of the very few uh complaints I had about this film okay I think he did a great job emotionally and everything. I couldn't understand half of what he was saying really, because of the way. The way his character was just kind of and it could have been my sound system that may have been it because of the way his character was just almost I'm trying to think of how do you explain talk like he was just worn out and exhausted, but he was very philosophical as well.

Brad Shreve: 27:08

He was high all the time. He was high all the time, most definitely His character's high, yeah, it made it hard for me, so I missed a lot of what he had to say. In fact, sometimes I had to rewind it and put it on closed caption.

Tony Maietta: 27:32

For people who don't know who John Hurt was, as I just said, he was also the Elephant man. Famously, he played the Elephant man, although I mean, he's the Elephant man, so you're not going to go. Oh, that looks like John Hurt. He's very eccentric and what's funny is that he didn't bathe for most of the 53 days of filming in order to get into the reality of the character of Max, also get into the body odor of Max.

Tony Maietta: 27:45

Talk about method acting of Max Also get into the body odor of Max. Talk about method acting and John Hurt was actually impressed with how eccentric Brad Davis was. That's how eccentric Brad Davis was. He would do push-ups before the scene and apparently he always had to pee in a bucket and he would pee forever in the scene before he did anything. I mean he was really getting into the mind of Billy and you can see it. I mean he's living that part. That part is exhausting. And he also.

Tony Maietta: 28:14

There was the scene with the girlfriend where he's been in the sanitarium now for a while and she comes to visit him. He was so nervous about it that he got some what they call French courage, ie some cognac, and he had a couple drinks of cognac to kind of just relax himself. And then there was a camera problem and they drank more cognac and more cognac. So by the time they came to film the scene he couldn't really keep his head up, but they were on a tight schedule. So if you notice in that scene he's kind of like at a 45 degree angle, but it works. It works for the scene.

Brad Shreve: 28:53

It does work. Alan Parker said by the end of the film that Davis had become Billy and he was actually concerned about how deeply he did, but at the same time he liked that he could use that yeah of course he was a really interesting character, brad Davis, he really was.

Tony Maietta: 29:12

So John Hurt came in, actually came into his meeting with Parker with his sketch a pencil sketch of Max, of who he thought Max was and who Max ended up being. On the screen is very close to that sketch, with the glasses and just his sinewy body, and you know it, know it's. Look, he's in a turkish prison and he has a cat in the middle. I saw that cat, I went, that cat.

Tony Maietta: 29:33

well, you know that cat's a goner because anytime yeah come on, he's in a turkish prison, um, but he's amazing. He is amazing in it, he's, he is truly, truly amazing in this film. Uh, he was nominated, as I said, supporting actor christopher walken won that year, but, but my God, what an incredible performance. What an incredible performance both of them. And who's the third one in that triumvirate of leading men in Midnight Express, brad?

Brad Shreve: 29:57

Well, there's also a fourth, but the third I'm sure you're talking about is Randy Quaid.

Tony Maietta: 30:01

Randy Quaid, randy Quaid, I forgot it was Randy Quaid and I'm like God he looks like Randy Quaid. But I have this idea of Randy Quaid from the vacation movies, you know, and I forget that when Randy Quaid was younger he was actually not a bad-looking guy. I mean, he didn't look like his brother, God knows. But that's also. What's interesting is that his brother, Dennis, was up for the part of Billy. So had Dennis Quaid gotten the role, it'd be these two brothers playing total strangers.

Brad Shreve: 30:29

But remember Randy was also in what's Up Doc.

Tony Maietta: 30:31

He was in what's Up, doc? Well, he was a Peter. Peter Bogdanovich found Randy Quaid when he was in Texas filming the Last Picture Show and he brought him to Hollywood. So he was a Bogdanovich baby, but he's wonderful in this. I forgot what a good good actor Randy Quaid is, maybe because he became such a nut job, but you forget. He's a really, really good actor and he is wonderful in this film. He's wonderful in this film.

Brad Shreve: 30:57

He really was. You talk about feeling the pain that Billy went through his character Jimmy good God, all of them, john Hurt the emotions in this film were exhausting.

Tony Maietta: 31:13

Yeah, they are exhausting. They are exhausting. Yeah, I got to say you know, this is one of those movies where I'm like I don't love this movie. It's hard for me to say I don't love this movie, that's okay. You don't have to love movies. You can appreciate them. I appreciate them, I appreciate them, but I'm actually absolutely kind of certain that I probably won't watch this movie for another 30 years, because it is emotionally draining, it is exhausting. I had to stop it halfway and then come back and watch it again. Um, because I find it so. It's harrowing. I mean you, this is the brilliant thing about Brad Davis's performance is that he not only becomes Billy, you become Billy.

Tony Maietta: 31:49

Yes, you identify with him so deeply he's like Mary Pickford reaching out to you. You know you relate to him on such a deep, deep level that these things are harrowing to you to watch, because you know it ain't going to get better. It's just not going to get better, he's got to get out of there.

Brad Shreve: 32:08

Yeah, and the scenes that are violent and disgusting. I know some of the audience members found it very disgusting. They aren't just gross, though. They're painful.

Tony Maietta: 32:19

Emotionally painful yeah.

Brad Shreve: 32:20

Because you just feel the hurt, the anger, the helplessness. More than anything, you feel the helplessness that Billy had Definitely definitely All hope was gone, all hope was gone.

Tony Maietta: 32:33

When his father comes to visit him. Oh my God, it's just. I mean, can you imagine saying your parent coming to you and you're in a Turkish prison after you've just done the stupidest thing in the world trying to smuggle these drugs in? Stupid, stupid. Not only that, but who knows what his future's going to be? And you're saying goodbye to your father and that last look he gives him oh my God, it's gut-wrenching, it's gut-wrenching Well in the scene.

Brad Shreve: 33:01

I don't know if the man was the—he wasn't the attorney, because the attorney was a Turkish man. Maybe he was a law—the man that came with his father and then came back to tell Billy.

Tony Maietta: 33:12

He's from the embassy.

Brad Shreve: 33:13

He's from the embassy? He's from the embassy, okay, he's from the embassy. When he told billy that he had been extended from four years to a life in prison, that is when I I brad davis was at his best. I mean just grabbing that man by his shirt and screaming I'm 53 days, 50, oh god. I just I mean, yeah, it was heartbreaking.

Tony Maietta: 33:35

And then he gets sent to the asylum and they walk the wheel. That was my first. That was my first knowledge of this film was I had friends who would say, walk the wheel, walk the. I'm like what are you quoting? And then I watched it. It was like, oh okay, yes, walk the wheel, walk the wheel.

Brad Shreve: 33:50

So, as we said, the movie was Well, tell people what walk the wheel is. Oh, okay, because they may not remember.

Tony Maietta: 33:55

Walk the I just assumed they knew. So Billy is in an asylum for the criminally insane. He looks like he's never going to get out and at a certain point in the day they all congregate together and walk. They walk to the right Very important. They walk to the right, around this very large pillar in a group, and they just keep walking and they walk the wheel, walk the wheel, and they keep walking in a circle, in a circle, over and over again. And it's very important. You walk to the right because right is correct, left is wrong, left is communism. You walk to the right, um, and so it's a very, it's a very interesting scene. So when, at the point when billy um is it after his, he sees his fiance and she says you've got to get out of here. You've got to get out of here.

Brad Shreve: 34:42

That he goes back and he starts to-.

Tony Maietta: 34:44

Yes, because that's why he changes direction, he starts to walk to the left and everybody's stopping him. You can't walk that way, you have to. Because she says to him you have to get out of here, you're dying in here. And he is, he's catatonic. Now it's been five years. He's catatonic in this asylum and she's urging him to you know, you've got to get out of here any way you can. And she gives him a scrapbook, a photo album which has money in the back so he can get out and get to Greece and get out of there. And that's when he starts to wake up a little bit and he starts to walk at the opposite direction and everybody stops him. Everybody's like no, you've got to walk the other way. You've got to walk the other way Because they're all auditrons, they've all been lobotomized, even not physically, but mentally.

Brad Shreve: 35:28

And he stops taking the meds, Because this is a psych ward with prisoners and mainly they just kept them drugged so they didn't have to deal with them.

Tony Maietta: 35:40

Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. I mean it is a horrific, horrific idea. It's horrific. I mean it makes me nervous just to think about it. You know it. Just it's yeah, it's just the worst, the worst idea. It's just terrible. It's yeah, it's just the worst, the worst idea. It's just terrible, it's terrible. So what happens with the character? So his girlfriend comes and urges him to get out. So there has been a sadistic animal who's been in charge of the prison and his name is Hamadou, played by the actor Paul L Smith, and he is incredibly violent. He's the one who beat him. They like to beat you in the bottom of your feet in this movie. I didn't remember that and I was like why? That must be very painful. I guess that's why they do it.

Tony Maietta: 36:26

Very violent, very scary man and he bribes him part of the money that his girlfriend gave him and he bribes him part of the money that his girlfriend gave him uh, in the photo album and he takes him out of the asylum into he thinks he's going to. He starts to take him to another room and he's going to rape him and at that moment Billy pushes him back and he very, very satisfying death scene but you wanted him to do more.

Brad Shreve: 36:52

Yes, yeah, it wasn't satisfying to me, it was too quick and easy, satisfying death scene, but you wanted them to do more.

Tony Maietta: 36:55

yes, yeah, it wasn't satisfying to me, it was too quick and easy, but yeah he backs up against a uh um a thing for a coat you know a coat rack thing and it goes in the back of his brain and kills him. So billy grabs his gun, grabs a uniform from outside the room they were in, disguises himself as a guard and escapes. I mean, in the end it's the easiest escape in the world.

Brad Shreve: 37:16

I mean, how it all just together, casually walks out the door.

Tony Maietta: 37:19

He just casually walks out and then he starts to run and he runs and he leaps and that's where the movie ends. But that's not where the script ended. Do you know this? The script ended, I believe, at the airport and they did the still shots and stuff right but there was a whole, yes, there was a whole sequence of his escape, of getting to greece, you know, and oh, are you talking about the real story that happened, or no, in the original, in the screenplay in oliver stone okay, there was actually yes, that, that's, very true um it's more along the lines of what really happened there's a whole sequence well, when it comes to that final scene, one of the things that I don't like about it but I think it was the right decision at the same time is it was nothing like Billy's Escape.

Brad Shreve: 38:04

But, Billy's Escape is a movie in itself.

Clip: 38:07

Right.

Brad Shreve: 38:08

At that point he had been transferred to another prison. It was on an island. He had to swim. He had to get a dinghy Right exactly In rough waters, the rain. He was dangerous in Greece because Greece had such secure borders. He had to walk through a minefield which fortunately, didn't know was a minefield at the time. So you know, he lucked out, and then he was detained in Greece because they were hoping he had information from Turkey. That is an amazing story in itself, and the studio wasn't happy.

Tony Maietta: 38:40

Right.

Brad Shreve: 38:41

That. Parker cut that out Right.

Tony Maietta: 38:42

Well, they didn't even film it. They didn't even film it, right? He said he knew. Do you know who was the head of Columbia at this time, by any chance? We just talked about him David Biegelman Again.

Brad Shreve: 38:54

This season has been. I couldn't remember his name, that was a guess.

Tony Maietta: 38:56

Three mentions of David Beigelman, of Leopold and Loeb, judy Garland's manager. Now he was running Columbia, at least until he was fired for embezzlement. David Beigelman, he said, just go ahead and shoot it, we don't have to use it. And you know, and Goober knew, and Parker knew that no, if we shoot it you're going to use it, we're not stupid here. And Parker felt that the heart of the story was Billy's experiences in the prison. To change the texture of the film at the end and make it an action adventure film of him escaping wouldn't have been true to the previous 90 minutes that we just watched. So it was a very smart decision. And you're right, there are still photos of him arriving with his family at the very end. It's interesting they did that with Brad Davis and they didn't do it with real Billy Hayes, I think. But anyway, that would have been interesting.

Brad Shreve: 39:46

That would have been interesting.

Tony Maietta: 39:49

But yeah, so the film ends with him just running and then doing a leap in the air which is kind of which is a I? I agree with them. I think that's the perfect ending because we don't need this added thing of him you know, in Greece trying to get out.

Brad Shreve: 40:01

As I said, it bothered me because it wasn't close to the truth. But I do agree with one reason Parker felt it was good. He said it would change the tone of the movie too much because they would have moved him from that horrible prison to an island where there's water and blue skies and it would have been almost an entirely different film. Certainly the tone would have been gone. And then, like you said, then him escaping is an action adventure film, A very interesting one. I would like to see that portrayed. But it is not this story. This is a prison story.

Tony Maietta: 40:35

Right, no, exactly Exactly.

Brad Shreve: 40:37

A horrific one.

Tony Maietta: 40:38

The film was finished and they made the unusual decision of having its first screening at Cannes, which is really interesting. I mean, it's like they're throwing all the marbles on the table because the studio didn't believe in this film. They're like you know what it's not going to have any audience at all. Let's just throw it at Khan, and because of what you talked about earlier and because of the treatment of the Turkish people and the very bad light this puts Turkey in, there were protests at Khan the day of the screening, but all that did was create a buzz at the film, and the film, the first screening, was packed and the audience gave it a standing ovation, and you know, and that that controversy about the Turkish uh, the Turkish controversy, though, was very prevalent in Europe. In fact, I don't know if you you read this, but this movie did not show in Turkey until the nineties.

Brad Shreve: 41:28

Yeah, and I uh Spain, or I think people in France, were very upset about it yes. Though once they started playing it, it ran in a theater for six years.

Clip: 41:38

Yeah, I know. So there you go.

Brad Shreve: 41:39

I thought that was it, but yeah, the Turkish people were offended. It actually damaged relationships between the United States and Turkey and, unfortunately, turkish tourism took a nosedive.

Tony Maietta: 41:53

Oh really Wow, straight down.

Brad Shreve: 41:53

Yeah, really Like straight down. Yeah, it killed their tourism industry for a while.

Tony Maietta: 41:57

Isn't that amazing, what a film can do.

Brad Shreve: 41:59

Well, I would watch that film. I didn't know anything about Turkey at the time I watched that. I'm like hell. No, I'm not going to Turkey.

Tony Maietta: 42:05

I really never had a desire to go to Turkey. But yeah, well, I'm not going to smuggle drugs from Turkey. I'll tell you right now. Well, that's for sure. Yes, I got nervous coming back from London when I went into a store to buy some aspirin and I'm like, can I take this on the plane? I'm going to say I mean store-bought, store-bought, perfectly safe. But the controversy with the Turks did prevent the film, they said, from winning the Palme d'Or at Cannes. But it didn't matter, because it opened the United States very soft, very soft, opening only a handful of theaters. But the amazing thing was was that it grew. It kept growing week by week, by week, word of mouth, critical praise until, like we said, it earned over $30 million on a budget of how much Brad? 3.2?, 2.3., 2.3. That's pretty amazing, pretty amazing.

Brad Shreve: 42:55

Yes.

Tony Maietta: 42:56

And it was nominated for six Oscars. It was nominated for Best Film, Best Director, Best Supporting Actor, Screenplay Based on Another Source, Editing and Score, and it won for Screenplay and Score, the very first fully synthesized movie score.

Brad Shreve: 43:12

And Brad Davis did not win an Oscar. He wasn't even nominated. No, he wasn't even nominated, but he did win a Golden. Globe yes, it was, for I don't know what the term they use basically the best new actor. Yeah, newcomer, and that was at least well-deserved. I would have liked to have seen him nominated in the Academy, but at least he got that.

Tony Maietta: 43:31

No, he wasn't nominated. No, this, this was the year of coming home, so John Voight won. There were some good performances that year. I mean, warren Beatty was nominated for Heaven Can Wait. I love Heaven Can Wait. Garrett Yusey for Buddy Holly Story, de Niro was for the Deer Hunter and Laurence Olivier for Boys from Brazil. So those are some big, big hitters. So, considering this is your first time out, I would have loved to have seen him get an Oscar nomination. I really would. But again, you know, it's kind of like with ordinary people. Who are you going to bump here? You know all of these are incredible performances.

Brad Shreve: 44:04

Absolutely. And since you mentioned them, let's talk about the top grossing films that year.

Clip: 44:09

Please.

Brad Shreve: 44:09

Midnight Express. Despite how well it did, it was number 15. Number one was Grease, at $153 million, which is no surprise, so he was up against some pretty big contenders. Number two was Animal House. I actually saw Animal House probably that year 14 times.

Tony Maietta: 44:28

I was so obsessed with.

Brad Shreve: 44:29

Animal House and John Belushi. I saw Grease 14 times. Well, I saw Grease a lot too. Jaws 2. Now there's a sad state of affairs. Jaws 2 was number three. Heaven Can Wait was number four. I agree with you, I love that film. Yeah, number five is sad as well, which was Every which Way but Loose oh we've talked about that, yeah.

Brad Shreve: 44:53

And to give a frame of reference, to take people back in time. Other films that year were Death on the Nile, which we already did, superman, halloween, up in Smoke, coma and probably the film that should have won the Oscar Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.

Clip: 45:12

Oh my God.

Tony Maietta: 45:14

That's so funny. I remember that movie. I remember Attack of the Killer Tomato funny. I remember that movie. I remember Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.

Brad Shreve: 45:18

I remember the song puberty, puberty, love, wow, and I only saw it one time, but it'll never get out of my head. Before we wrap up, I want to talk a little more about Brad Davis, please let's do.

Brad Shreve: 45:31

He was cast in a film that became a major motion picture a few years later, the year before this film, and that movie was Rambo and he was cast in it and it didn't happen because production just fell apart and it didn't come out till 82 with Stallone. I am just trying to picture Brad Davis as Rambo in that movie. It would have been a whole different film.

Tony Maietta: 45:57

A very, very sensitive, vulnerable Rambo.

Brad Shreve: 46:00

Yes, how do you make that leap how?

Tony Maietta: 46:01

do you make that leap from Brad Davis to Sylvester Stallone? That makes no sense to me at all Money. No, that's true, that's true, yes.

Brad Shreve: 46:13

I just picture Brad Davis in that moral, and not only would it have been a different movie, I think it would have been a wonderful movie, whereas Rambo was just Rambo.

Tony Maietta: 46:20

Well, yeah, it was a terrible movie. It was a terrible movie.

Brad Shreve: 46:23

You know.

Tony Maietta: 46:23

I think that this movie, if anything, it's a testament to the great talent Brad Davis. As I said, he left us much too young he was 41, I believe, when he killed himself, and you know he was. He did have a substance abuse problem that he dealt with his entire life. He was an incredibly talented, gifted man that we lost much, much too soon to you know, to two diseases to the disease of HIV and to the disease of drug addiction, and it's unfortunate because his body of work, though small, is very impactful. I mean, you've got Sybil, you've got Midnight Express, you've got the normal heart. I'd throw Carell in there, because Carell is something to see. I'll tell you right now.

Brad Shreve: 47:06

I'm ashamed to say I've never seen it.

Tony Maietta: 47:09

It's something to see. That's all I'm going to say. It's something to see.

Brad Shreve: 47:14

I've seen the shots of Brad Davidson and I'll watch just for that.

Tony Maietta: 47:18

As Halloween. I went a few years as Carell in that sailor outfit he wears. It's a great gay costume. I'll tell you right now.

Brad Shreve: 47:25

And you mentioned he killed himself, and I want to talk a little bit about that. Sure, first, you mentioned his substance abuse and his wife likes to tell a story and I think she puts a little humor in it that at a hollywood party, brad was ripping his shirt off, crying, okay, who's got the drugs?

Brad Shreve: 47:48

and a big director muttered there goes his career. But as a result he did assisted suicide. His wife was beside him and a friend who has remained unmentioned. After that happened, she took on advocating for assisted suicide as well as support for those with HIV. And can we talk a little bit about how Brad Davis felt about having HIV in Hollywood?

Tony Maietta: 48:12

Oh well, he didn't let anybody know. That's how he felt.

Brad Shreve: 48:15

He didn't let anybody know, and he was bitter about it because he said he couldn't let anybody know.

Clip: 48:19

No.

Brad Shreve: 48:20

You know he had this disease. He had a family to support, so he couldn't tell people about this thing that was killing him Exactly. How horrible, how horrible is that? Yes, yes. And in the book that he wrote that his wife released after he died, he said I make my money in an industry that professes to care very much about the fight against AIDS but in actual fact, if an actor is even rumored to have HIV, he gets no support on an individual basis. He does not work. He's right. He was right.

Tony Maietta: 48:55

He was right, you know.

Brad Shreve: 48:58

Yeah, that's very sad that.

Tony Maietta: 49:06

Hollywood that way. So, but he did. He did a lot of advocacy for HIV and AIDS as well during that time. Incredible, incredible, incredible spirit gone much too soon.

Brad Shreve: 49:10

Yes, Yep. Well, as always, I gotta say, if this is your first or maybe second time, or you're just new listening to this show, please subscribe. And if you've been listening to it for a while, or even if you're brand new and you just think we're fabulous, please rate and review us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to this podcast.

Tony Maietta: 49:30

Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well.

Brad Shreve: 49:43

Well, I know, I just have one more thing left to say and I don't want to say it, Brad so let's not say goodbye, let's say John heard William hurt, john hurt.

Tony Maietta: 49:51

Go for it, because I can't say that we'll say goodbye. Hurt, william hurt, john hurt it.

Clip: 49:58

That's all folks.