Clip: 0:04

From Television City in Hollywood. Here's Judy Applause.

Tony Maietta: 0:15

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve: 0:19

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta: 0:22

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve: 0:28

And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta: 0:34

As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Clip: 0:40

You know, a lot of crazy things happen on television and things you never get a chance to see actually. And, for instance, we have Martha Ray on the show this week and well, a lot of things happened at dress rehearsal. I thought you would like to see she just well, we didn't know what she was going to do next. I think you might be interested in it. You understand, here it is.

Tony Maietta: 1:07

Oh, we're back.

Brad Shreve: 1:08

Yes, we are.

Tony Maietta: 1:09

That didn't feel like 62 years. Wait a minute, let me think about that for a minute. Because we left you in the last episode in October of 1963 with the Judy Garland show featuring Barbara Streisand and Ethel Merman. And what was her names, those brothers?

Brad Shreve: 1:34

the mothers brothers, mothers, brothers.

Tony Maietta: 1:36

They were in that they were in that show too, and we were in that show.

Brad Shreve: 1:40

And we did our movie in 62 years. We're only going two months ahead.

Tony Maietta: 1:43

We are. We are Cause we're going back in time again, but I mean, right now we're in this world, right now it's 2025. But then we'll go back. We'll go back, but we're not going to go back all the way to October, because I threw Brad a little curveball last night, which I love to do, and I texted him about what was it like 930? Yes. What was it like 9 30? Yes, and I said watch this, we're going to talk about it. And I thought I want, because we only have one more episode of the julia garland show to talk about. We got through two and a lot of me jabbering on and on and on um well, that's no different than usual.

Tony Maietta: 2:14

Well shut up, um, but we, um, your, your camera freezes, I don't know, I just keep talking. So we did two, we're gonna do one more, but I threw threw Brad a curveball because I have a little bonus content for you listener. I sent Brad a video from episode number 18 that was taped on January 14th 1964 and aired on none other than Martha Ray, and I felt so evil sending you that video because I know how you feel about Martha Ray.

Brad Shreve: 2:56

Two thirds of that show sound just delightful. So Tony sent me this. I'm like oh my God, why would he send me Martha Ray, especially late at night?

Tony Maietta: 3:09

You'll never get to sleep now.

Brad Shreve: 3:11

I actually I was busy at the moment so I was like I'll go, I'll watch it later. I actually kind of forgot about it and I watched it early this morning.

Tony Maietta: 3:17

Well, I just want to give a little before you go into it. I just want to give a little background about it. Oh, yes, about it, because, listener, if you and I don't know why you haven't listened to all of our episodes- but if you listened to our Alice episode a couple of weeks ago, brad made his feelings about Martha Ray very clear.

Tony Maietta: 3:36

Now I'm not quite as adamant about Martha Ray as Brad is in his opinions. I actually kind of like Martha Ray. I think she is funny, I think she can be a little of her goes a long way, true, but I happen to think she has moments of very funny and she has a great voice. She has a great singing voice. You can't deny that she was a singer. She was a band singer, as I said in our Misery episode. You know Bette Midler was kind of playing her and for the boys at least, martha Ray thought so because she sued her. So she's a comic, she's a singer.

Tony Maietta: 4:04

She was a good friend of Judy Garland's and Judy, at this point in the series, needed all her friends around her. That's why Peter Lawford was also on. And Judy Garland and Martha Ray here's something I bet you didn't know. Brad shared something. They had something in common. They had a husband in common. Judy Garland's first husband was David Rose rose and he was also married to martha ray. So these two knew each other and they were good friends and martha ray could make judy laugh like nobody else could, and I think you kind of see this in this little, in this little scene, don't you?

Brad Shreve: 4:38

yeah you, they seemed to really did enjoy each other's company.

Tony Maietta: 4:41

Certainly did so in this episode, judy and Martha. Among the things they do together is they do a Glenn Miller medley, and it's allegedly from the dress rehearsal, because Martha Ray kept just acting like Martha Ray does. She's just so outrageous. And Judy did a special introduction to this saying you know, we didn't know what she was going to do next, because she's just so outrageous and she's so uncontrollable. So that's what we're going to talk about is our little bonus thing. So, brad, lay it on me. What were your thoughts?

Brad Shreve: 5:13

Well, first of all, Tony said that a little Martha Ray goes a long way. About two seconds of Martha Ray goes a long way. However, I listened to this first.

Clip: 5:24

Oh, you did.

Brad Shreve: 5:25

Well, I turned it on and I had other things going on, so I got distracted. I was doing all kinds of things and I was listening to it. I thought this is really enjoyable. I really enjoy this. Both of them sound great. It's a fun medley. I really enjoyed it. And then when it was done, I thought you know, I didn't watch it, so I need to watch it again. Yeah, it was so much better just to listen to it. Now, there were a couple of times that Martha Ray said some things, but this one she kept. She tried being a clown, she was making faces, and I'm like it was so much more enjoyable when I didn't have to look at her and I don't mean that as far as Martha Ray being an unattractive person, but just she's doing these faces that work with Lucille Ball but don't work with Martha Ray in my opinion.

Brad Shreve: 6:14

So what you're saying is that Martha Ray has a face for radio. She has a singing voice. I've never really paid that much attention to her singing voice. I've heard her sing. The two of them sounded great together. I hate to admit it because I don't like saying nice things about martha ray, but I actually really enjoyed that.

Tony Maietta: 6:32

I bet you're shocked. No, no, no, no, she's a wonderful singing voice.

Brad Shreve: 6:33

No, I bet you're shocked.

Tony Maietta: 6:34

I liked it oh, I'm, I'm no, I. I kind of not really. I kind of figured you would like the sound of it. I love that you listened to it and then watched it and you didn't like watching it because to me it's the faces, to me, uh, and it's the ad libs you know, it's the fact that this is totally ad-libbed.

Tony Maietta: 6:50

Judy didn't know martha was going to be doing this stuff. She just knew I'm going to be sitting on a stool with this kook. Well, she had no martha's gonna do something. She knew she was gonna do something, but who knew what? And, as I said at this point in the series, uh, we're getting very close to the cancellation of the series and Judy needed all the laughs she could get, so it was a really wonderful thing to have her friend on here breaking her up and kind of lightening the mood. I think my favorite. So they sing a bunch of songs identified with Glenn Miller. They sing Pennsylvania's 6-5000, and Martha goes. I forgot the telephone number. There's some great outtakes, by the way, that are available on YouTube, which are very funny. But the best part is Judy sings At Last and as Judy sings, did you know the song At Last, before this happened?

Brad Shreve: 7:34

My husband plays at least three times a week, but not the Judy version.

Tony Maietta: 7:38

Yeah, At Last my Love has Come Along. So it's a beautiful song. And Martha and the camera's on Judy. So it's a beautiful song and Martha and the camera's on Judy and Martha. Suddenly her head suddenly pops into the frame and then pops back again and Judy looks and goes what the hell was that? And she continues. And then she does it again and she mouths I love you, I love you. And Judy's trying to hold it together and she does it one more time. But here's the brilliant thing about that is that Judy takes that and runs with it, Because at the end of the song, the lyrics, the lyric is supposed to say and you are mine at last. And Judy looks at Martha Ray and points to her and goes and she is mine at last.

Tony Maietta: 8:19

Which was all impromptu, it's so funny. It was TV's first lesbian joke. Think, um, it's, it's a, it's a fun, fun little bit. I love watching that thing. Whenever I feel blue or wherever I feel down, I put on the glenn miller medley and just hearing it and knowing what's happening facially lifts me up every time see when I need a lift.

Brad Shreve: 8:37

I I watched a clip of paul rudd doing almost anything well, there's a different, different kind of lift brad no well, I get two kinds of lifts from Paul. I just think he's. I think he's hysterical. I don't like his movies, but I think he's hysterical.

Tony Maietta: 8:49

I.

Brad Shreve: 8:50

I drool over Paul, so that's a whole it's 63 standards and practices. Let's keep it clean.

Tony Maietta: 8:57

So that was our little. That was our little for this program to pad out the rest of this episode, although frankly, I don't think we need anything to pad out this episode.

Brad Shreve: 9:08

It'll probably be a little short, and that's okay.

Tony Maietta: 9:10

That's good. Yeah, the last one went long, but anyway. So we're in October of 1963. Norman Jewison has got the show renewed and he's out of here. He's like I'm going to go make In the Heat of the Night, goodbye. That was much later. Also out of there was, thankfully thank you TV gods Jerry Van Dyke. He said he got his pink slip and they're like get out of here. Which was very sad for Judy because she actually really loved Jerry Van Dyke and she felt I don't know what's going on here, don't leave me. But he did.

Brad Shreve: 9:46

Bye, jerry, have a nice life. Hopefully you'll have a sitcom in 30 years.

Tony Maietta: 9:57

He went on to star in my Mother the Car, but he did finally set. Yes, brad just said he found some success in the sitcom Coach in the 90s, so they needed a new executive producer. Okay, so they needed a new executive producer. Okay, we're only 13 episodes into this season and they've already had two major executive producers. Now we need a third one.

Brad Shreve: 10:13

They put a revolving door at the entrance for the producers and the writers of this show a brand new format.

Tony Maietta: 10:20

So we're up to format number three and this. They looked to the TV producer, bill Colloran. He was a TV producer and director and he's also was known as Mr Lee Remick. He was married to Lee Remick and he was brought in and the great thing about Bill Colloran was Bill Colloran helmed the series for the rest of the episode, so there were no more new EPs. It was Bill Colloran at the helm. He loved Judy. He was a big fan of Judy's, judy loved him. So that was good. So we had people.

Tony Maietta: 10:53

At least she felt like she had some kind of grounding here after all the tumultuous you know everything that had gone on the past 13 episodes. What was great about Colloran was that he recognized the sound deficiencies of the studio and he had them bring in a state-of-the-art sound equipment and a handheld mic for Judy. So when you're listening to these later episodes and you say you couldn't hear her before, so the sound was corrected, there was a correction of the sound. So usually when you hear songs from the show they're from the later episodes because they finally had a decent sound system. You know it's crazy. Despite all this and despite all the problems, cbs refused to move Judy Garland from her time slot opposite Bonanza. Bonanza was trouncing her. They paid millions of dollars to have her. You think they go? Okay, let's move you to Saturday night, let's give you a shot. But no, I know that doesn't make sense. They were determined. It's almost like they were determined to destroy her. It's insane. It's insane.

Brad Shreve: 11:55

Well, especially Westerns were so popular back then that Bonanza was really a family show in a weird way. So why would you have them up against each other? And plus, you had a ratings powerhouse. I mean, there's just so many reasons that it makes no damn sense whatsoever to why they did that.

Tony Maietta: 12:11

No, it doesn't. I mean, you have the idea at first that, yes, if anybody's, if anybody's going to beat Bonanza, it'll be Judy Garland. Okay, we get that. But when it was proven that it wasn't working, you think they would have given her a shot. But they didn't. It's so Machiavellian, it's frightening. They just it's like they wanted her to fail. So, if that wasn't bad enough, they were about to begin rehearsal for the first show under the Collin regime and November 22nd happens. And Brad, do you want to tell us what happened on November 22nd?

Brad Shreve: 12:50

Unfortunately, that was the day that President John F Kennedy was assassinated, that's right. Who also happened to be. Not only was Judy a huge supporter of his, she was a good friend of his.

Tony Maietta: 13:03

She was. She was a personal friend of JFK. It's kind of gone into legend now that she would just pick up the phone, say, can you connect me to the White House, Can I speak to Jack? And she would talk to Jack Kennedy about the show, about what was going on in her life, and at the end he would usually ask her to sing a few bars of Over the Rainbow to him and she would.

Brad Shreve: 13:29

I want to jump in and say something I thought was funny when I read quite a few articles about the two of them, and I guess because of Jack Kennedy's reputation for being a ladies' man, all of them stressed they were just friends. Yeah.

Tony Maietta: 13:49

That's interesting to say that. Yeah, I just I can't imagine those two getting together, but yeah, that's kind of crazy. She was much more concerned with David Bugleman because, yeah, anyway, we're not going to go into that, but anyway. So Kennedy was shot. Judy, understandably, was a mess. I mean, you have a woman who's already teetering on the edge because of everything that's going on and this just really pushed her over.

Brad Shreve: 14:13

A lot of people cite Kennedy's assassination as the moment when her life really turned and she just never seemed to recover from that but I just want to jump in in case the listener doesn't know this Judy sang at the Democrat National Convention this year, so she was she did Big on Jack.

Tony Maietta: 14:32

She was a huge Kennedy supporter. She was very close with Peter Lawford, the president's brother-in-law, and she was very close with all the Kennedys. They invited her to Hyannis in the summer, so she was very close with them and she was devastated. But she had a show to do. She had to go to work. That's the unfortunate reality of Judy Garland. She worked and worked and worked and never had any money because people were always stealing from her, and so she pulled herself together. There was a show scheduled with Bob Newhart and Bobby Darin that she wanted to postpone because she thought I want to do something for the country, I want to do an hour of patriotic songs to honor JFK, and the network absolutely refused. Can you believe that?

Brad Shreve: 15:19

I saw one of the reasons why I was aghast that they said it was a month after his assassination and it'd be all forgotten by then.

Tony Maietta: 15:29

You know who said that.

Brad Shreve: 15:30

Who the head of.

Tony Maietta: 15:33

No not Aubrey Aubrey, no, mr Stromberg. Mr Stromberg said that Nobody will remember Kennedy. In six weeks it's unbelievable right.

Brad Shreve: 15:45

Yeah Well, who was Kennedy? I don't. It's 2020. Who was Kennedy? I've never heard of the man.

Tony Maietta: 15:49

So, yeah, she's just, she was just. She's like numb, she's like what the I know I mean, come on. So she's like she has no choice, though she decided to move ahead with the Bobby, darin and Newhart show, which does have some good moments in it. As you said, brad, that was actually an episode we were going to talk about, but I asked Brad to talk about this one instead. So, thank you, but there's a very cute. One of the very few comic scenes in the show that works is a wonderful skit between she and Bob Newhart, where they're pretending to be TV viewers and did you watch that skit?

Brad Shreve: 16:23

Yeah, I actually wanted to see more of the show and I was only looking very quickly and the only thing I could find was that skit. I'm sure if I looked deeper I'd find the whole show and I really enjoyed that skit. It was very cute and very well done and a really good reflection of the difference between the earlier skits if that's what you want to call them in the earlier episodes to one that was really done well yeah, she had a master with her.

Tony Maietta: 16:47

She did. She had a master with her and she had new writers that came with choleron and there's a. There's a funny thing where she goes to bob. My favorite thing is if she goes to Bob Newhart and she goes. She's playing. This woman is watching Judy Garland on TV and she goes. You know she hasn't sung a note in years. She just moves her lips to old records.

Brad Shreve: 17:06

And what was the song? He said that? Well, she did sing such and such she sang.

Tony Maietta: 17:10

I left my heart in San Francisco last week. They just speeded up the Tony Bennett record.

Brad Shreve: 17:15

I thought that would that actually had me bent over that.

Tony Maietta: 17:19

It's a very cute skit, so watch that and watch the Martha Ray Two little bonuses and the scenes with Bobby Darin are good, bobby Darin, she has a medley of train songs with Bobby Darin which are really, really good, really swinging. I love Bobby Darin.

Brad Shreve: 17:31

So and I do want to speak on that episode. So when Tony and I were picking out episodes, I love Bob Newhart just way beyond. I wish people knew him more than just a series, because he was a brilliant standup comedian. And Bobby Darin just makes me melt. In fact, beyond the Sea is a recent I saw.

Tony Maietta: 17:50

I wish I could tell you a whole story.

Brad Shreve: 17:51

There's a big story behind that We'll talk about someday. So I was like, oh, I've got to watch this. So Tony always lets me pick my episode. He will fight for the. I'm sorry, he'll fight for the episodes that he wants to watch, but when we do a TV show, he lets me pick the episode.

Tony Maietta: 18:08

I let you pick, but this one, yes, you do.

Brad Shreve: 18:11

This time he said you know I watched it, it's okay, why don't you do this one? And I'm like I remembered it was Bob Newhart. I totally forgot it was Bobby Darin. Had I remembered they both were on, I would have said no, because it had been a while since we talked about it. So I said, okay, that's fine, I'll watch the one that you think I'd rather watch.

Brad Shreve: 18:26

Okay, even though it has Eartha Merman as the. So I will say that I am very disappointed that I did not watch that episode, because when I saw the two of them on and after I saw the Judy and Bob Newhart skit, I thought it seemed it looks like they really finally got together. I wish I'd watched it. However, I do not regret watching this. Good, I'm glad, well, because this is when I said wow, they finally are pulling it together.

Tony Maietta: 18:51

This is yeah, and the reason that I wanted to do this episode will become apparent in a bit.

Brad Shreve: 18:56

Yes, we'll talk about it.

Tony Maietta: 18:57

And it was fitting that we did that yes. And the Bobby Darin Bob Newhart show. Those are the only two good segments in that episode by the way.

Brad Shreve: 19:05

So I'll actually say yeah, you said it was meh overall.

Tony Maietta: 19:08

It's not a great. She's her best friend. One of her best friends had just been killed. I mean, she's not in the best short, she's not in the best shape. It's amazing that she showed up, but she does pull it together and she does some good stuff. Then they did the Christmas episode, which is a delightful episode with the kids, with Joey and Lorna, and Liza comes in and it's a fun Christmas episode. I'm sure you know it's called the Judy Garland Christmas show. You've probably seen it. It's wonderful. The one and only time she sings Over the Rainbow is on this Christmas episode and it's a delightful. She sings it to the kids. It's a delightful, delightful sequence.

Brad Shreve: 19:41

And that was fitting for a treat for the audience.

Tony Maietta: 19:43

It was, it was and it makes sense. She's singing it at Christmas time. It's special. And then they took a short break and they reconvened to discuss the next show and Judy said this. She said I'm singing Battle Hymn of the Republic as a tribute to John F Kennedy, and if you don't like it, hunt, if you don't like it, aubrey, you can fuck off because I'm doing it. And this one time somebody stood by her, bill Collar, and said absolutely we're doing it. And they actually allowed her to do it now, you surprised me.

Brad Shreve: 20:20

I'm glad because I always trust you. You set the record straight. I actually did not hear that. What did you hear? I heard that judy did it at the end on her own doing and said well, no, they go with it after they had insisted to her.

Brad Shreve: 20:32

No, because this was a time when television was always supposed to be happy, so when a character died they always just had to move away. So you know I understand where they were coming from, given the mindset of that era. That didn't want her to do all this stuff, but my understanding is they never buckled, she just did it and when, by the time it was done, they were like run with it well, no, they couldn't have just created the orchestrations on the moment?

Tony Maietta: 20:53

you know, she said was doing it. And Bill Collaren said yes, she is going to do it. And Aubrey said, or. Stromberg said no one will remember JFK, as you said. So Judy said leave it off the rundown, but we're doing it. So they eventually found out it was going to happen and she was adamant about it. I'm doing it, I'm doing it. So there was always a chance that they would cut it. But here's what they did. Cut um is before that, during the dress rehearsal, before she started singing battle him in the republic, she looked at the camera and said this is for you, jack, and then she sang it. They now, when she did the, the taped the aired version that wasn't in it. They took that out.

Brad Shreve: 21:35

Or she didn't say it and the version I watched didn't have that either. I don't know if the one you had had it, and that really disappointed me, I know, given that time period. And she did say to the camera I'm going to sing a song that I don't think is sung on television, and she sang it. Boy, she knocked my socks off and I'm not even in love with that song, but oh God, she was good and you could just, it was powerful, yeah, but I was really disappointed. She didn't say why she was singing it, but, granted, it was just after Jack died.

Tony Maietta: 22:04

Well, she wanted to make sure it aired. Everybody knew why, everybody knew why? Well, that's the thing.

Brad Shreve: 22:10

Everybody knew, so it is that they cut it out, but it was probably unnecessary, given that.

Tony Maietta: 22:15

Well, and Bill Colloran said that. Bill Colloran, the executive producer, said she said that and she didn't, but it didn't air. But before we I don't want to blow our wad here on Battle Hymn because we got the rest of the show- to talk about and then we'll finish with. We'll talk about Battle Hymn, but you liked. So this is episode 16. It was taped on December 16th 1963, aired on January 12th 1964. The guest stars are yes, the merm is back, ethel Merman, shelley Berman no relation and.

Tony Maietta: 22:49

Peter and Peter Gennaro. Peter Gennaro, yes, he was the choreographer of the show at this point.

Clip: 23:21

Well, Judy dear, are you all warmed up? Yes, Ethel, and you sing just as loud as ever. That's the nicest thing that anybody ever said to me. You know, you amaze me, Ethel, Really. We've been doing a little digging, and do you know that Ethel has appeared before a Broadway audience exactly 10,836 times? And look at all the marvelous songs you did in your shows the songs you've written for you.

Tony Maietta: 23:54

There's a lot of them, Judy, all right.

Clip: 23:55

But my real favorites were the duets. Oh, did you do duets? Oh, of course, but nobody ever knew it. I sing so darn loud the audience would never hear the other singer. They'd be able to hear you, judy. Let's face it we're the last of the big belters, I see. So we're the last of the big belt-ins, so let's go, come on.

Brad Shreve: 24:18

So you liked this show. I did. I think it could have been better, but it is more along the lines that I would have liked to have seen it Now is this the one where the there's one of the ones that the outfits were just horrendous at the beginning, of course most of them, they looked awful.

Tony Maietta: 24:34

Oh well, they sing, everybody's doing it and they're all like in band leader outfits.

Brad Shreve: 24:40

Well, there's one where they're clowns, canes oh, that's in this. Okay, yeah, that was horrendous, but that's because of the outfits, but anyway, and all that is. I remember that.

Tony Maietta: 24:48

Yeah, I wasn't wrong about that well, it's funny, they do, they do this, they uh, peter gennaro does this dance to. I Love a Parade and he's in this kind of weird like. He's in this bandleader uniform with a hat. And Judy needed to save money so badly that a couple episodes later she wore that costume. She could fit in the same costume as Peter Gennaro.

Brad Shreve: 25:12

They're both little tiny people. Shelly Berman did a skit that I didn't think was the best skit in the world, but it was funny and made me giggle and you know they broke away for that. So they had singing. They broke away for that. Then they did singing and they broke away for Peter Gennaro doing a dance routine. And they did. Was it all three of them that did a dance routine together, or just him and Judy?

Brad Shreve: 25:36

B did a dance routine together, or just her, him and judy. Berman and genero and judy did one together. Yeah, I wasn't real thrilled with the dance routine but I liked that. It was a break and it was a attempt at something. To me that was more of a variety show. I was much happier. This is like the show I wanted to see from the beginning really that's so interesting because I have the opposite reaction.

Tony Maietta: 25:50

I feel like there's no continuity here. I feel like it's sketch, sketch, sketch, sketch. There's no through line I. I won't argue like that I won't.

Brad Shreve: 25:58

No, I I will not argue that I said I didn't think it was a great show. I I enjoyed it more because there was variety, as variety shows should be but. I don't think, just like the rest of the, the whole series, I don't think it was the best done show no, okay, yeah, yeah, it's, yeah.

Tony Maietta: 26:14

I I think it's. It's. It's got some cute moments. I love the fact that merman's back, I think after she did the barbara thing and judy was like we gotta get.

Brad Shreve: 26:23

I gotta get merman back in because you know, we just gotta have a show and she was a good friend of judy's, so that was and she was delightful and she even joked that nobody can hear when she's singing. That's right.

Tony Maietta: 26:34

So that's the great friendship duet. We're the last of the big belters. And it's so funny because you know they were friends. Even though Judy was cast as Annie Oakley in the film version of you know, one of Merman's biggest hits, annie Get your Gun, she was fired so she didn't make it. Betty Hutton made it. But Merman didn't seem to have any animosity towards her like she had towards Riles and Russell with Gypsy. She really loved Judy and here's another reason she loved her.

Tony Maietta: 27:04

By this point Judy was resorting to her old tricks and not showing up and being late and apparently she wasn't there for most of the week the rehearsal week and Ethel just put up with it. Now you wouldn't think Ethel Merman would put up with this, but that's how much she loved Judy and she knew what Judy was going through. It's also a reason why Judy seems kind of off-kilter in some of these episodes. She misses some dance steps and she screws up the friendship duet. But Judy had Garland had a photographic memory, so she just had to hear something once or see something once and she could pretty much do it. So they do that friendship duet which is all of Ethel's, all of Ethel's duets. But she says but I sing so darn loud no one could ever hear the other singer. And Judy just does it, she does it with her, she messes up, but she just keeps going and it's actually quite charming, I think.

Brad Shreve: 27:56

If I recall, she messes up and does she giggle for a second and get right back into it. Yeah, she giggles and they laugh. Yeah, that's what I love about variety shows. That to me well, you know, carol Burnett's famous for it.

Tony Maietta: 28:06

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 28:06

But I enjoyed that.

Tony Maietta: 28:18

I was like, wow, it feels Ethel doesn't miss a beat, if you notice. You know why that is. It's because even when Ethel Merman is performing with another person, she's solo. Yeah, that's true, she is in her own world. It's her in the audience and oh, are you here too? Oh, okay, you know what I mean. She's totally ignorant of the person she's singing with. She's not like Judy in Barbara, she's not reacting. She's not like Judy in Barbara, she's not reacting. She's in her own world. And there's just this person next to her who was also singing. But it is kind of sweet because after the, after the duet, she kind of looks at Judy and gives her an air kiss. So you know it's, it's, it's just a style of performing. That's who Merman was. Everything was full front, loud as it could possibly be, and that was showbiz, kids, you know and that was showbiz kids.

Brad Shreve: 28:56

You know, yeah, and I I said that during the last episode that I love her as an actor and comedian. I'm not a fan of her singing and I really, really got tired of there's no business like show business, because that's all they ever had that poor woman saying when she was on the show. But I will say this to me when she stood up and sang it in the movie airplane, it was on the funniest moments in the movie it was no well, she actually sang.

Tony Maietta: 29:16

Everything's coming up roses and air oh, that's right, she did sing.

Brad Shreve: 29:19

Everything's coming up, you're right.

Tony Maietta: 29:20

Oh my god, that was funny but no, they almost, they almost always had her sing show business. Thank god she didn't sing it in this episode.

Brad Shreve: 29:26

Episode she's saying uh, I get a kick out of you and she's saying uh gee, but it's good to be here which are two of her and and I really love I Get a Kick Out of you, so I was really enjoying that it was wonderful.

Tony Maietta: 29:37

It's really good it was. Yeah, the episode definitely had its highlights, but I think the reason I wanted to do this episode and the reason why I wanted to change it is because of the trunk sequence and Battle Hymn of the Republic. It's just, you know, it's so the whole thing with Kennedy and the whole fact that she held her line and she said I'm singing this, this is, I've got to do something for this, for this man, and I've got to do something for the country, you know the fact that she felt, that she felt so deeply about that. It just moves me so much. And she sings a couple other songs before. She sings a song from one of her movies, pretty Girl Milking Her Cow, and she sings Putting on the Ritz, which are fun, but it's all just filler for this. I mean, she's just she grabs that mic and it's like she's leading an army of people when she sings battle him, don't you think?

Brad Shreve: 30:34

yeah, you, you let slip that. She sings battle him. And I, I think it's because you were trying to sell me to switch episodes. Yes, uh, I thought. Battle him in the republic. Oh, my god, why do I want to hear that? And it was. It was so moving. Yeah, isn't?

Tony Maietta: 30:48

it isn't amazing.

Brad Shreve: 30:49

It was so from the heart and the. You know it doesn't surprise me the way judy's saying it is not like it, just it sounded it. It almost sounded like a love song.

Tony Maietta: 30:58

Her heart was on this, her guts were out. I mean, it's that level of emotion. When she's singing this song Again, something's taking over her, and you know, what's interesting about it is that there were technical problems when she performed it. Her mic shorted out at one point. So if you watch it really closely, there's a moment where her voice doesn't sync up. They had to go to the dress rehearsal and insert a part, but it doesn't matter. It's like when we talked about the Manchurian candidate, with the slightly out of focus scene with Frank Sinatra it's the performance that matters. They didn't redo it, because what matters is the performance. It doesn't matter that her vocals off sync. They didn't redo it, because what matters is the performance. It doesn't matter that her vocal is off sync, it doesn't matter if she messes up the lyrics a couple times. It's the raw emotion of the performance which is driving it and which makes it so incredible.

Brad Shreve: 31:49

I agree. I'm actually surprised you even said that, because it seemed flawless it's amazing.

Tony Maietta: 31:54

It's amazing when she says, when she sings, when she's talking about Christ and she says as he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free. And you can see that she's crying and she's just barely holding it together. Oh my God, I'm getting chills talking about it right now.

Brad Shreve: 32:16

And I mentioned earlier, I really liked the way she introduced the song.

Tony Maietta: 32:19

It was kind of sweet.

Brad Shreve: 32:20

Yeah, it wasn't. They didn't allow her to talk about John Kennedy, so she just said I want to sing a song that I don't think is. She either said it's not sung on television or not sung. You barely ever hear it on television and I just think it's important to sing it. That was so smart. You barely ever hear it on television and I just think it's important to sing it. That was so smart. Oh yeah, and it was just. I felt like she was talking directly to me.

Tony Maietta: 32:41

It's so smart that you did that, because they couldn't object to that. If she had said the Jack Kennedy thing, they could have said cut it, cut the whole thing, don't just cut. But she knew that everybody in that audience knew why she was singing it. She knew they knew, so she didn't have to say that, you know. And another genius thing about that woman and clearly the audience did, because they not only gave her a standing ovation, I mean they were jumping up and down, they were screaming. She was overwhelmed by their response.

Brad Shreve: 33:07

Well, the country was in pain.

Tony Maietta: 33:08

They needed that, they needed that and stupid CBS, you know. I mean, are these people?

Brad Shreve: 33:17

human? I guess they're not. They're TV executives, so they're not Exactly.

Tony Maietta: 33:19

It's amazing to me. She was, in fact, she was so overwhelmed and I don't know if you noticed this, but they start to play. Maybe I'll Come Back. She didn't sing it, she turned and she walked out, and good for her. She's like uh-uh turned and she walked out, and good for her. She's like, uh, I'm not doing this silly end song. How can I possibly sing a silly song about birds roosting in a trees and elephants in the breeze when I've just spilled my guts out for you for a TV show? I mean, I love it. She walks off and the orchestra plays it and then you just get all these random shots of the trunk because they don't know what to shoot's brilliant, it's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, incredible episode, incredible now we talked about.

Brad Shreve: 34:04

I talked about how I really felt that this is where they hit their stride, because it did feel more like a variety show, even though, again, it had its faults, as this entire show did. And, uh, no respect, disrespect to Judy herself, but I haven't seen the whole entire series and I was reading some synopsis of the show and they did say it was towards the end of the series. Chris, this was what? Episode 18? Mm-hmm, okay, so it wasn't really. This is halfway through or a little less than that.

Brad Shreve: 34:32

Yeah, they did 26 episodes, yeah because I did hear that towards the end of the show it became almost just a Judy concert show, which is exactly what I felt was wrong with the show.

Tony Maietta: 34:42

Well, yes, here's what's interesting.

Brad Shreve: 34:44

And critics think that's when it got better, and I'm sure you probably do. I don't know, no.

Tony Maietta: 34:48

I don't necessarily. I don't actually, but here's what happened. So this was show number 16, december. In January, cbs informed Judy Garland that her show was canceled and her last episode would air in March. So they actually allowed her. It was one of the few decent things they did. They allowed her to make the announcement as if it was her choice yeah, that she needed to spend more time with her family, but it wasn't. They canceled her and she was devastated.

Tony Maietta: 35:17

But then she does what Judy does and she goes. You know what she's like. Fuck all y'all. I've been listening to you for a year now and you couldn't get it right. I'm going to do it the way I know it should be done. And that's when she started the concerts. So, yes, the last handful of episodes are. I don't even think it's called the Judy Garland show anymore. It's called Judy Garland in concert and it's really one concert after the other. There's occasionally a guest star who comes in and she'll do a couple songs with them, but there's no more format, it's just a concert series. She finally got to do the patriotic show she wanted to do. She did a song of all patriotic songs, cause by now CBS is like do what you want.

Brad Shreve: 35:57

You're canceled.

Tony Maietta: 35:58

You know your ass is out.

Brad Shreve: 35:59

Well, that was funny. I heard that they just kind of were like she's done, just ignore her. I mean yeah, exactly.

Tony Maietta: 36:04

And, and you know what the show started to pick positive, like what's going on over there. Suddenly the show is working, suddenly this show is not stupid with these stupid skits and all this stuff. I I don't prefer the concert. I like I love the schlatter period I do. The first five episodes, I think, are there are some bad moments, but I think they're pure, pure entertainment. I love them. I'm not a huge fan of the concerts but they're a hell of a lot better than you know calling her fat and a little old lady and all that shit that she was doing in Norman Jewison's reign. So, yeah, yeah, they're good, they're good.

Tony Maietta: 36:46

But it was a big risk for her to try to do a TV series, a weekly series, and we've just spelled out for you what happened and why that was a risk, but she had to do it. She wanted the security for her family and for her life. So you've got to love her for that and just be devastated for her by how it turned out. Something which started out so optimistically and on such a high note to end the way it did is just so very sad to me. It's.

Tony Maietta: 37:12

Chinatown yeah it kind of is the futility of good intentions. So the final episode of the Judy Garland show was to be taped on March 13th 1964. And Judy for her, to her credit, she had high hopes initially for a classy finale. She's like I'm going to go out with a bang, I'm going to do all new material. I'm going to really, I'm going to go out with a bang, I'm going to do all new material, I'm going to give them something to see. And she started out really well but she started to falter about halfway through and she just couldn't make it through the show. She just couldn't do it. So she left the stage. The studio audience eventually left and then at about 3 am suddenly there's movement and someone said she's coming on. She's coming on, go get people. So they ran out to outside the studio where this coterie of Garland fans always hung out, and they brought them in for the studio audience and they sat them in the bleachers so that she had her fan base there and she did a couple numbers and then she faltered again and then they called it quits at 5 am. They had been filming since, I think, about 8 pm. So they've been there a long, long time.

Tony Maietta: 38:31

She came back a couple days later to try to do some stuff, but she just couldn't do it. She just couldn't get through. So the last episode is a hodgepodge. It's scenes that she shot that night. It's things from old episodes that were thrown in. It's kind of like we said Frankenstein, the first episode. The last episode, ironically, is also kind of Frankensteined. There's some good moments in it, but you can just see it in her face that she's done. She's done, it's over.

Brad Shreve: 38:59

That's disappointing. I'm really sad. I would love to see the last. You know this show ended in 1964.

Tony Maietta: 39:04

She died in 1969, june 22nd 1969. And the last five years of her life were pretty turbulent, were pretty crazy. I mean, she had incredible highs. You know she did the Palladium with Liza. She had incredible lows. She was fired from Valley of the Dolls. For Christ's sake, can you imagine being fired from Valley of the Dolls but being Judy sake? Can you imagine being fired from Valley of the Dolls but being Judy Garland? She took the wardrobe with her.

Tony Maietta: 39:42

In fact, patty Duke tells a very funny story about working with her on Valley of the Dolls and saying that you know how could you put? She said she was like a little sparrow, she was so tiny and weak and she's like how can you put this treasure, this American icon, through this, through this? And she left and she said she felt really bad about it, until she went to go see her in concert a couple months later and she walked out in the outfit she was wearing in Valley of the Dogs. But yes, she just her. The rest of her life was was not good. But that's why this show is so important. That's why the show is so historic, because it's really the last sustained period of work in her life. It's really the one where she showed up at least until the end every day and did her best and had the best intentions. But you're right, brad, like Chinatown, sometimes that's your downfall yep yep and it, it was it.

Brad Shreve: 40:40

It's almost like I wish she was just complacent about this show and just did it. My understanding she didn't want to do television, except that she needed because I said that early in the last episode. I said that I heard she was did want to retire completely, but she didn't have the money. Um, she needed the money and and this episode, in my understanding she did definitely not want to do television. But when they offered her so much money, how can you turn it down? You can't. But she wasn't complacent about it. But when she decided to do it she said I'm going to run with this. So her heart was in it and it is very sad it didn't turn out.

Tony Maietta: 41:13

And they sold her a bill of goods.

Brad Shreve: 41:15

The way it should have been, yeah.

Tony Maietta: 41:16

So they sold her, cbs sold her a bill of goods and, like so many other people, they took advantage of her. And I mean I'm not going to do Judy the victim, you know, because that's an old trope. You know that we know is not true. She was a funny, brilliant light. She was not a victim, but she was victimized by many people who took advantage of her.

Brad Shreve: 41:38

Yes, she was, she was.

Tony Maietta: 41:40

And one of those people, or a group of people, was CBS. And now I wanted to save this part for the very end, because all throughout these two episodes, we've been asking why? Why did CBS do this? Why did they pay her so much money only to undermine her at every step of the process, changing formats, firing producers. It's madness.

Brad Shreve: 42:09

It's nothing short of crazy.

Tony Maietta: 42:11

Well, there may be a reason, a theory as to why this all happened. Now, in our last episode, you read off a list of the top 10 shows on television in 1963. Beverly Hillbillies, Bonanza, Dick Van Dyke, Lucy Perry, Mason, Red Skelton Remember that yeah, yes.

Tony Maietta: 42:33

All right, and you said they all had something in common. Remember that, yeah, yes, all right, and you said they all had something in common. They were all dramas or comedies, except one which was a variety show. Well, they had something else in common they were all CBS shows, except one of them, and which one was that? Brad?

Brad Shreve: 42:53

Bonanza.

Tony Maietta: 42:54

Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza. Exactly Ding ding ding Bonanza. And the theory is that this drove CBS president Jim Aubrey, aka the smiling cobra, crazy. He wanted a clean CBS sweep of the top ten and the Ponderosa boys were standing in his way. He was obsessed with beating Bonanza and nobody else had ever been able to do that in that time slot, except one person who showed that she could actually beat Bonanza in her special with Dean and Frank Judy. So, allegedly to Aubrey, it wasn't about making great television or a great television show or Judy Garland. It was about it was all about beating Bonanza. It was about a clean CBS sweep of the top 10. And that's why he was constantly interfering with the series, firing producers, changing formats and then finally, when he realized Judy wasn't going to be able to beat them in her weekly series, he set her loose.

Brad Shreve: 44:02

Wow, that is obsession. That's really sad.

Tony Maietta: 44:05

So what happened to the Judy Garland show? It's done Now. It was owned by Judy. Judy owned it along with her now ex-husband, sid Luft. It languished in legal hell for decades. She thought about rerunning it but nobody wanted to rerun it in her lifetime. And it was only after Sid Luft in like I think 79 or 80, finally got control of the show and they brought the tapes out and he slowly started letting them be seen. And this is. You know, there's a lot of things to say about Sid Luft, but this is a wonderful thing that he did because the show was finally being seen and re-evaluated.

Tony Maietta: 44:50

People had heard of or they'd seen. You know, in 1963, they saw the Barbra Streisand episode or they'd heard about it, but they hadn't. They saw the Barbra Streisand episode, or they'd heard about it but they hadn't seen it. I remember seeing this, as I said, when I was in college I think and just being blown away by it. And all they had, all we had, of the show was the memory and Nell Torme's horrible book which paints such a bad picture.

Tony Maietta: 45:12

And then, when the series started to come out and then it was released on DVD in pristine condition, which I was like first in line to get the box set for this. I'm blown away by the artistry, by the talent, and there's a wonderful book that I love, written by the late, great Steve Sanders, who was. I knew him, he was a wonderful guy and he wrote a wonderful book called Rainbow's End, which so much of this information. If you want to know more about the series, read this book. It's a fantastic book, verifiable paints, a perfectly honest portrait of Judy and what the show was and what she went through, and I hope that we, in podcast form, have done that as well today. Brad.

Brad Shreve: 45:54

I think we did. I think we gave her a good salute and a fitting tribute. I do too.

Tony Maietta: 46:00

I do too, and I appreciated your opinions and you went easy on me, I think.

Brad Shreve: 46:07

I went easy on you. I was honest but gentle, but it wasn't really gentle. I was honest, but everything I said to soften the blow was as heartfelt Good.

Tony Maietta: 46:17

Well, we got some great stuff coming up for you in future episodes. Brad, Do you want to talk a little bit about what's going on here, what we got coming up?

Brad Shreve: 46:27

Well, next week, if we go on schedule and we've been doing a pretty good job of it, let's just say it's going to be a total different direction.

Tony Maietta: 46:35

But you know it is, it is June, it is pride month, so it's not that, it's not that off base. You know what I'm saying? It's not.

Brad Shreve: 46:43

We, when we agreed on it, we were kind of stretching on it, but yeah, it is fitting for for June month, Cause I will say, as a young man I was like, but there's a teaser.

Brad Shreve: 46:52

Yeah, there is a teaser. It is, though. It is not a happy film. It's a drama, very serious drama, that I don't I think is completely overlooked these days, and I don't know why. Before we say goodbye, as always, I want to remind those that are listening to us the first few times please subscribe, and if you've been listening to us for a while, leave a review, because not only will it make us happy, you'll feel better for it too.

Tony Maietta: 47:15

That's true. That's true. I appreciate that. Well, brad, I know I only have one thing left to say but, even that I don't want to say. So let's not say goodbye, let's say au revoir.

Brad Shreve: 47:31

No, it's time to say goodbye.

Tony Maietta: 47:33

Goodbye, everybody.

Clip: 47:42

That's all folks.