clip: 0:04

Raymond Shaw, please this is he? Raymond, why don't you pass the time by playing a little solitaire? Well then, comrade, may I present the famous Raymond Shaw.

clip: 0:15

His brain has not only been washed, as they say it has been dry cleaned. Raymond Shaw is the bravest, kindest, warmest, most wonderful human being. Kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being. Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

clip: 0:33

It's time for my American operator to give me the plan.

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Why don't you pass the time by playing a little solitaire? It's a terrible thing to hate your mother.

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I wanted a killer from a world filled with killers, and they chose you.

Tony Maietta: 0:53

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maetta.

Brad Shreve: 0:56

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta: 0:59

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve: 1:06

And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta: 1:11

As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve: 1:16

Tony, it's good to see you. We haven't talked much over the past couple of weeks.

Tony Maietta: 1:20

No, I know. Wow, it's good to be back in the US, dear listener, I was in London for a week and an amazing time, saw some great theater and just had a wonderful time. I had a great time, but it's good to be back. But yeah, I got to tell you, brad, I'm still on London time. My body will not adjust to LA time, you know not that big a deal. So now I get up. Instead of getting up at 4.30, I get up at 2.30. But by noon I'm a mess. Anyway, it's good to be back. It's good to be back and good to see you. Thanks, I wanted to tell you too, brad. So when I was in London I got something for you.

Brad Shreve: 2:00

You know that doesn't surprise me.

Tony Maietta: 2:26

You know that doesn't surprise me. Listen, I got to tell you Tony Maeda is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever. One of my favorite bookstores, on Piccadilly, and right in front of me was a first edition copy of the Manchurian Candidate. Isn't that amazing? That is amazing. What serendipity. So I have something for you and I meant to send it. But you know what? I'll send it right now. Okay, I'm going to send it, Let me get my phone.

Brad Shreve: 2:40

I'm going to send it right now. I'm going to send the first edition now there. Give my phone. I'm sending right now, first edition, now there, you should have it. You should have it. What the fuck is this? Did you get it? Yes, it's a picture. Yeah, it's a. Are you showing me what you?

Tony Maietta: 2:51

brought back. No, I'm. It's a picture of the first edition of the manchurian candidate today. Yeah, it was almost 500 quid I I ain't got that kind of dosh. What do you think?

Brad Shreve: 3:04

Okay, take back everything I said.

Tony Maietta: 3:06

I ain't got that kind of dosh.

Brad Shreve: 3:09

Listen, I was wrong about what I said. I want to tell you now, it's not that Tony Maitta is hard to like, he's impossible to like 500 quid on your ass, come on.

Tony Maietta: 3:22

But anyway, it's a great way of saying our final film for Mother's May featuring, as we've been vamping the entire month, the biggest mother, I think, of them all in cinematic history Angela Lansbury in the Manchurian Candidate and listener this one is Brad's baby.

Brad Shreve: 3:47

We don't give spoiler alerts, but this is one. If you have not seen it spoiler alerts. Because we're going to give it all away and you always ask me why I chose a particular film, and thank you again for allowing me a film now and again. And actually next week's is mine too.

Tony Maietta: 4:02

I'll let you choose one finally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad Shreve: 4:04

The reason I chose this one is I remember Angela Lansbury being a mother the mothers of all mothers, mother of all mothers. And I remembered beyond that. I remembered very almost nothing, except for the fact I loved this film. But it was so long ago, I forgot everything and I remembered loving it and when I watched it again I'm like, wow, I know why it's, yeah, watching it again.

Tony Maietta: 4:33

Uh, god, she, well she is. She's uh, as you said, uh, in our one of our last episodes, a very loving mother, um, in the most literal sense, and I don't, you know. I don't know if we're going to go too much into the differences between the book and the film, but in the book, I mean, she's literally a loving mother, which is one of the freakiest things about this, about the book and the film, but it's so startling, it's so prescient, it's so many things. It's a lot. Ironically, you know, it's a lot like network and, ironically, you know, john Frankenheimer used to work for Sidney Lumet in television as an assistant director. Lumet and Frankenheimer very, very similar in their attitudes.

Brad Shreve: 5:18

There's even narration in this film as there's narration in network film as there's narration and network. And you know, it's funny to me because Angela Lansbury is the only actor in this film that was nominated for an Academy Award. She was nominated for Best Actress in a Supporting Role, and to me it was not a supporting role. Now, I didn't see who she would have been up against in the Best Actress role, but I know Best Supporting Actress. She lost to Patty Duke in A Miracle Worker, which is no surprise, it's 62.

Tony Maietta: 5:46

It's 62. It's the year of the Miracle Worker. So she and we talked about the Oscars of 62 slash 63 in our Baby Jane episode, because she was up against. If she would have been nominated for actress, she would be up against Betty Davis, geraldine Page and Bancroft, obviously, lee Remick, you know so. So I mean, but she wasn't, she was, she was put in the best supporting actress and she lost to patty duke. Yeah, and I'm not gonna. You know what? I'm not gonna take an oscar away, oh, and geraldine page, of course, for best actor. I'm not gonna take an oscar away from patty duke in the miracle worker. But no, jesus, what a performance. Jessica flet, she was not.

Tony Maietta: 6:24

Oh my God. You know, and I want to talk more about Angela Lansbury and her approach to this character later on, but there are a couple of myths, if you allow me to, I want to put to rest.

Brad Shreve: 6:35

Well, I will allow you and I think I know one of them that you're going to put to rest, but I did want to let people know, to give them a frame of reference in this, yes, people know. To give them a frame of reference in this, yes, please. The Cuban Missile Crisis which for you youngins out there was when Kennedy blockaded Cuba to prevent the Russians from bringing more missiles into Cuba, which today, with intercontinental ballistic missiles, it's kind of absurd, but to have missiles there in Cuba was a big deal back then. That Cuban Missile Crisis lasted from October 16th to October 28th, 1962. Right, and this movie came out in October 24th, so it was right in the height of where a lot of people thought it was going to be the end of the world.

Tony Maietta: 7:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, can you imagine, this film was released on October 24th? So right smack dab in the middle of the Cuban Missile Crisis, this film was released. That's astounding to me. But a couple of myths, one I want to dispel and one I want to confirm. The one I'd like to dispel is that, contrary to legend, this film was not pulled from release after the Kennedy assassination. That was the one I knew, that you were going to comment on?

Brad Shreve: 7:43

Yeah, I mean.

Tony Maietta: 7:45

First of all, this film was released in October of 1962, and the assassination of John F Kennedy was November of 1963. So it was over a year later that the Kennedy assassination happened.

Brad Shreve: 7:56

So this film had pretty much played, which was about the time the film was pulled from the theaters, which but it wasn't pulled.

Tony Maietta: 8:03

There are ads, there are verifiable ads, newspaper ads that it still showed, and in fact, it was shown on television in 1965. Exactly which was normal at that time. It wasn't pulled because of the Kennedy assassination. It might have had an effect, but it had been in release for over a year. So you know, give it a break. The second myth I want to confirm, and something that always, always, always, blows my mind. Before I say it, though, with Brad, I think we've gotten to the point in our podcast where I think we need you have me as a co-host. It just comes with the territory. We're going to talk, we're going to have a Lucy reference, but I think we just need to, we need to inaugurate an official Lucy moment. I mean, we can have, like, we can do a little music like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, and then I can say Lucy moment. So let's do that right now Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, lucy moment, lucy moment, lucy moment.

Brad Shreve: 9:10

It is true, the tagline right now is movies and television from the golden age to today. I think we need to change it to going Hollywood movies and television that usually feature Lucille Ball from the golden age to today, or at least mentioned some way Movies, television and Lucy but it's okay, unlike usually when I bring up Lucy.

Tony Maietta: 9:31

This is totally appropriate. Okay, because it is true that Frank Sinatra's first choice to play Mrs Iceland, angela Lansbury, the mother from hell was indeed Lucille Ball. Now I'm from. The very first time I heard this I was like is this Hollywood lore? How far did this go? So I consulted one of my dear friends and friend of the pod, thomas J Watson, who we had on last season for a Lucy episode, who knew Lucille Ball, who worked with Lucille Ball, who I worked with on the Lucy Show DVDs, and he confirmed that yes, frank Sinatra did speak to Lucille about playing the role of Mrs Iceland.

Tony Maietta: 10:19

However, lucy said she thought about it and she really didn't want to accept it because it would destroy her general foods image, which it definitely would have. And you know, just for context, lucy was at a crossroads here. Isle of Lucy had ended and you know she was just beginning the Lucy Show. The Lucy Show premiered in October of the same year. This movie was October 24th. Lucy Show premiered in October of the same year. This movie was October 24th. Lucy Show premiered on October 1st.

Tony Maietta: 10:50

So when this happened she was in preparation for the Lucy Show. So she really couldn't leave and Desilu needed her, she needed the show and they needed her to do the show. So she really couldn't leave the show. She couldn't, so she really couldn't do it. Besides which it's a moot point because Frankenheimer wanted Angela Lansbury from the beginning and he said that to Frank. He said, you know, he showed Frank he had just worked with Lansbury on All Fall Down, the film which he starred opposite Warren Beatty played his mother, played Warren Beatty's mother again, and Sinatra was convinced. But I just think, you know, oh my God, it would have been. First of all, the history of Hollywood would have changed.

Brad Shreve: 11:36

Lucille.

Tony Maietta: 11:36

Ball played this incestuous, murderous mother. Secondly, it would have been one of those like a startling, frightening, incredible casting choice and, I think, one of the great what ifs of Hollywood, right up there with Doris Day as Mrs Robinson in the Graduate. It would have been mind blowing and Lucy could have done it. Lucy was an actress. She played all kinds of various characters when she was in her movie career. So I just want to say that and that's the end of our Lucy moment for now, for this episode Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Brad Shreve: 12:14

You did that too soon because I was only going to comment. I've seen Lucy play cold-hearted. You can't imagine anybody else in the role, and I sure could not imagine anyone but Angela Lansbury.

Tony Maietta: 12:27

Well, Lansbury is so brilliant.

Brad Shreve: 12:31

Oh, my God, yes.

Tony Maietta: 12:31

I think that Lucy would have been brilliant. As I said, I think it would have been a startling, frightening choice and I think the history of Hollywood would have changed completely after this, because she could never have gone back to Lucy Carmichael after playing this part.

Brad Shreve: 12:47

No, that would have been very, very difficult. Let me do the rundown of this yes, I'm done, you go.

Brad Shreve: 12:53

Okay, okay, because I want to get to the starring roles here Now. Manchurian Candidate is a 1962 political thriller suspense novel. It was based on the best-selling novel by Richard Cohen, which came out in 1959. Now, this was directed by John Frankenheimer. It was written by Richard Condon I don't know if he really had much to do with the screenplay or if they just put his name with that Also written by John Frankenheimer, and somebody that we've heard from time to time, george Axelrod.

Tony Maietta: 13:21

Yes, yes, we talked about Axelrod time, george Axelrod.

Brad Shreve: 13:29

Yes, yes, we talked about Axelrod. Yes, now, it starred primarily Frank Sinatra, who, I've got to say, I normally am not a fan of Frank Sinatra, and he was great in this role. I watch him and I'm like, wow, he's marvelous. Also, I had Lawrence Harvey, who played Raymond Shaw, which was Angela Lansbury's son, despite the fact that he was only three years younger than she was. We'll get to that in a moment, yeah. And then we had Dame Angela Lansbury and she really had fourth or fifth in the line of the credits.

Tony Maietta: 13:54

Yeah, after Janet Leigh.

Brad Shreve: 13:56

Yes, After Janet Leigh, which is very bizarre because we'll talk about her too, but I'm going to focus on Angela Lansbury today and I think obviously you're going to One because it's Mother's Day and number two, she is really the standout Beyond a doubt.

Brad Shreve: 14:11

So Dame Angela Lansbury played Mrs Eleanor Shaw Islet. And then we have Janet Leigh, who played Eugene Rose Chaney, which she only had one purpose in this film that I know of, and she could have been eliminated. James Gregory, who, if you don't know him, you would know him by face because he's been around forever.

Tony Maietta: 14:31

Do you remember who he played on Barney Miller?

Brad Shreve: 14:34

Oh, he was the detective. Yes, yes, yes, he was the hardcore detective. Detective Luger on Barney Miller, probably his other claim to fame.

Brad Shreve: 14:44

And then we had James Gregory, who played Senator John Iceland, as I said, and Henry Silva, who was Chunjin, and then two other names I want to give because you will know them. First of all, the very handsome James Edwards played Corporal Alan Melville and he came on. I'm like wow, he's handsome. I didn't recognize him at first and I wish he had a bigger role. I'm guessing that role had bigger role in the book. And then, because I always love him in anything, even though he's almost the same character in every film, john MacGyver, senator Thomas Jordan.

Tony Maietta: 15:19

John MacGyver oh.

Brad Shreve: 15:21

I never get tired of seeing John MacGyver.

Tony Maietta: 15:25

There's a lot of Breakfast at Tiffany's here. Well, it was two years after Tiffany's. You have George Axelrod and actually this is interesting Frankenheimer was supposed to direct breakfast at Tiffany's and Axelrod was writing it and he left after three months and that's how we got Blake Edwards. But I thought that was interesting.

Brad Shreve: 15:41

I brought up Angela's age because when we did oh, I can't remember the film.

Tony Maietta: 15:45

Death on the Nile.

Brad Shreve: 15:47

No, we talked about Ellen Corby.

Tony Maietta: 15:49

Oh, I remember Mama.

Brad Shreve: 15:51

Yes, you talked about Ellen Corby and you mentioned that she was born 40 and stayed 40 for quite some time yeah. That was Angela Lansbury. She, in fact, I heard once. I couldn't find a break in her filmography or stage, but I did hear once that she left acting for a brief time because she was tired of playing matronly roles. So I don't know if that's true or not, but she looks like she could be his mother in this film.

Tony Maietta: 16:19

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 16:21

And she's only 36 years old and he was 33.

Tony Maietta: 16:25

She's three years older than Lawrence Harvey, yeah, and she's about 11 years older than Warren Beatty and she just had played Warren Beatty's mother. So, yes, born at 45, stayed 45. So, yeah, I mean always, always older. She made her film debut in Gaslight at age 19, got her first Academy Award nomination and then got an Academy Award nomination for the Picture of Dorian Gray right after that, for the Picture of Dorian Gray right after that, and then this Academy Award nomination and, as I said, I don't want to take an Academy Award away from Patty Duke because I love Patty Duke, but this performance, the bravery of this performance, astounds me every time I see it.

Tony Maietta: 17:08

This could have been a career killer. Very well, could have been a career killer. And it's amazing. I, you know, I wonder if people, when they watch, when they were watching murder, she wrote if they realized about this film. Obviously they did. When, when this film was re-released in 1988, uh, it played the new york film festival in 87 and and UA reacquired the rights and re-released it and it just blew up all over again, probably bigger than its original release. Because we had hindsight, we could see, you know, we could see what this film was portending and how really, really unfortunately, true, it is.

Brad Shreve: 17:49

Well, I also keep hearing about how the movie did not do as well as they hoped in the in the theater, and I think a lot of it had to do with the timing oh yeah, I think so too who, in the middle of the cuban missile crisis, wants to watch a political thriller?

Tony Maietta: 18:02

no, it's absolutely true. It grossed more on its re-release I mean, it was also 1988, um but it originally made 3.3 million on a budget of 2.2 million, half of which almost half of which was frank sinatra's salary. Okay, we're gonna say that, but frank sinatra was also the reason it got made. Very important to point that out. Frank sinatra was a major major one more major film star in 1962, so he could get anything made with his name on it. And he got this made. He actually acquired the rights from it and then gave it and then sold them again when it was re-released. But I want to ask you if you know so, since we're talking about this film, what exactly is a Manchurian candidate?

Brad Shreve: 18:47

Well, you know, that term seemed to have come from a particular book and I, you know it's used all the time. These days. But there was a book that came out it happened to be called the Manchurian Candidate. That it was based on, and what a Manchurian Candidate is, and it's been done many times since then, including on one of my favorite TV series, battlestar Galactica. The newest one is a person is a puppet, but they don't know that they're a puppet. That's really what it comes down to.

Tony Maietta: 19:14

Yeah, like a politician used as a puppet by an enemy power. Yes, so that's what a Manchurian candidate is. And in this film, our Manchurian candidate is Lawrence Harvey as Raymond Shaw.

Brad Shreve: 19:30

Who was an easy man to manipulate because he was from a wealthy powerful family and was also a very broken man who had been under his mother's control for some time, so he was actually pretty easy to manipulate.

Tony Maietta: 19:42

Do we want to give a little synopsis of what the Manchurian Canada is about?

Brad Shreve: 20:01

Sure, I think that's probably a good idea to jot people's memory. Sure, I think that's probably a good idea to jog people's memory. So, near the end of the Korean War in 1952, there's a platoon of US. There's two things that I got wrong, that I remembered in this film that I got wrong. One the brainwashing wasn't revealed until the end, and the other was I thought there was a lot more shown in the incestuous relationship. Those were the two things that I only really remembered, and I didn't even really remember how the brainwashing happened. I just remembered that there was a guy undercover. So when it started with this brainwashing thing, I'm like they're giving away the whole movie here and I was really disappointed. I'm like there's not going to be anything interesting now. Boy, I was wrong. I was wrong.

Tony Maietta: 20:43

I'm really glad I remembered nothing.

Brad Shreve: 20:45

So, anyway, they are captured by the communists and they're brainwashed. Now, after the war, the platoon has returned home and Sergeant Raymond Shaw is given a Congressional Medal of Honor for a incident in the war that didn't even happen, but they were all brainwashed to believe it was. So he gets all this accommodation. He's a hero. But then Captain Bennett, marco Frank Sinatra, he is plagued by strange nightmares, and he's not the only one. But he is plagued by these nightmares and he keeps remembering bits and pieces of what they went through. And I gotta tell you I normally hate dream sequences because I think it's usually lazy writing. These were wonderful.

Tony Maietta: 21:31

Well, this is a brilliant, brilliant dream sequence. Yes, A 360 degree shot which tells you what is. It starts from a subjective viewpoint, ie the dream, and as the camera goes around 360 degrees, it turns around to an objective viewpoint of what is actually happening. That's one of the brilliance of Frankenheimer.

Brad Shreve: 21:54

Yes, to have a speech going on and have it change from an Asian man to a white woman, to a black woman, back to an Asian. I mean, it's just, and it was so seamless and you understood what was going on, and it was. You're like wow.

Tony Maietta: 22:09

Yeah, it's pretty astounding.

Brad Shreve: 22:11

Yeah, it really was. So. Sinatra figures out what's going on and he doesn't know all the details, but he knows something's up and he knows that shaw has been hypnotized and is under control and so he has to try and stop a plot that he really doesn't know what the plot is, right right, right, no, it's pretty amazing, I think.

Tony Maietta: 22:33

Yeah, I think we have to point out here that the Manchurian candidate was made. There was still a blacklist when the Manchurian candidate was made and it was really the first film about McCarthy, because Senator Iceland is a stand-in for Joseph McCarthy.

Brad Shreve: 22:48

Really, I didn't notice that you didn't notice that mccarthy.

Tony Maietta: 22:54

Really I didn't notice that he didn't. And the reason lawrence harvey has been brainwashed is because the he was brainwashed by the communists, who want to insert senator iceland as the vice president and eventually the president of the united states. And it just so happens that the head of the Communist Party in the United States turns out to be his mother. Angela Lansbury is the head of the Communist Party and they have brainwashed her son to become an assassin so that her husband, Senator Iceland, can then be installed as vice president, then president of the United States. It's an astounding plot.

Brad Shreve: 23:37

And that's something I couldn't figure out for the longest time is was she a communist or was she just power hungry? Either way would have worked. No, she was ahead of the communist party? Yeah, I know, but initially I couldn't figure that out.

Tony Maietta: 23:49

It's astounding. It's astounding. And the thing about Lansbury is that you think when you first meet Lansbury in this film she's just this obnoxious, overbearing mother and then you realize, oh my God, she's the head of the Communist Party, she is the mastermind behind this. Now, when we're talking about Lansbury, I want to say that when she was offered the role, as I said, frankenheimer according to Lansbury, frankenheimer brought her the book during while they were filming All Fall Down. Frankenheimer has a different viewpoint of it, but anyway, he wanted her from the beginning. And she said that she. She said she said I've always had a problem playing downright rotten women. And she said she had to find her way into the character to be able to play this character. And she said the way into the character was the moment when Eleanor tells Raymond ie Lawrence Harvey that she didn't know he was the one who was going to be chosen to be the killer. He was the one who was going to be chosen to be the killer. She just said get me a killer.

Tony Maietta: 24:53

And the communists chose her son because they did it on purpose to bound him to her. So that is how Lansbury justified being able. She had to find a way into this character. She had to find something to identify with this woman and she did that. The woman didn't know that it was going to be her own son and she's also I mean, we might as well talk about it right now has an incestuous, has incestuous feelings for her son. And there's a very famous kiss in the manchurian canon that in this final scene, when she gives shaw his morris harvey his instructions about the assassination, and she kisses him on the mouth.

Brad Shreve: 25:34

Well, she kisses him on the forehead.

Tony Maietta: 25:36

Yes, yes, exactly.

Brad Shreve: 25:37

And then she gives him kind of a little more tender kiss on the cheek, and then she goes full force in there.

Tony Maietta: 25:45

Yes, exactly, exactly, go full force. But Frankenheimer said cover, put your hands on both sides of his face when you make the kiss, otherwise this ain't gonna make. This ain't gonna get past the production code. And it did. It's amazing. It's still an amazing scene because it gives you just enough to know. Now in the book she sleeps with him. Yes, in the film it's implied, but I mean you get just enough, so it's implied. But I mean you get just enough, so it's implied. But there's a lot of differences between the book and the movie and the timeline which I don't think we want to go into because it would make this an incredibly long podcast. But I think it's amazing that Lansbury was able to find a way into this very disturbing character and not only make it seem real and believable but give a ass kicking performance.

Brad Shreve: 26:36

Yeah, in the wrong hands this would have looked like a caricature, and because she is just so cold and just so evil, but she was so believable in this role. It is hard. Like I said, it was hard for me to think of the roles. This was the woman that, less than 10 years later, was the star of bed knobs and broomsticks.

Tony Maietta: 26:56

For god's sakes, well, and jessica fletcher, I mean come on later, black jessica fletcher.

Tony Maietta: 27:01

I mean america's aunt, america's grandmother. I mean, come on, I mean it's really. She was an astoundingly talented woman. She also won five tony awards on broadway. So this is a woman who you know, I think and we talked a lot about Angela Lansbury when we talked about Death on the Nile and the depth of this incredible talent that she had. I mean, she could sing, she could dance, she could do drama, she could do comedy, she could do British, she could do. I mean, she could do anything, anything at all. And I really feel like, uh, frankenheimer was absolutely right, it was the perfect, perfect choice. And you know what I also want to say yes, three years older than lawrence harvey, she didn't wear any aging makeup. She didn't. They didn't age her, they didn't give her a hump no it's all projected in her demeanor.

Tony Maietta: 27:47

It's all projected in how she carries herself. It's all in her body language. And that's the other brilliant thing about Angela Lansbury yes, born at 45, stayed 45. But you believe this is Lawrence Harvey's mother, even though she's three years. She is only three years older than he is.

Brad Shreve: 28:05

Her hair helped, her dress helped, but it would not have worked had she not carried herself that manner, she, absolutely, she just was great.

Brad Shreve: 28:13

I've got to give you an idea of how horrible this woman is. This is from the movie, it's a quote and it's by her son and he's talking to Frank Sinatra's character and he says my mother, ben, is a terrible woman, a terrible, terrible woman. You know, ben, it's a terrible thing to hate your mother, but I didn't always hate her. When I was a child, I only kind of disliked her. And it goes on from there and, yeah, no child could love his mother. He was under her spell. She was, and not just while being hypnotized.

Tony Maietta: 28:47

No.

Brad Shreve: 28:47

She was narcissistic and controlled everything he did, from who he married, when he was going to marry, his careers, etc. Etc. Etc. As much as he hated her, he couldn't pull away from her. So to have him hypnotized and be even further under control is just almost unnecessary.

Tony Maietta: 29:08

It is, and I think this is a good point. To talk about the man who plays Shaw, to talk about Lawrence Harvey.

Brad Shreve: 29:15

I don't know much of him, so I'm glad you're going to talk about him.

Tony Maietta: 29:17

Well, he was a very interesting actor. He had a big career from the 50s on. His big break was in Room at the Top. First of all, he's a Lithuanian board British stage and film actor. He made a splash in the film Room at the Top in 1959. He got an Oscar nomination. He followed that up right away. He became a Hollywood star in Butterfield 8, opposite Elizabeth Taylor in 1960. And Elizabeth Taylor adored him as she did. There's questions about his sexuality and, as God love Elizabeth Taylor, she loved her gay boyfriends.

Brad Shreve: 29:55

As did Angela Lansbury.

Tony Maietta: 29:56

As did Angela Lansbury, but I mean Elizabeth Taylor is, you know, iconic.

Tony Maietta: 30:00

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Elizabeth Taylor said when he died that he was one of the people I really loved in this world. He was part of the sun. There are stories that she tried to climb into his bed. He died of pancreatic cancer and she tried to climb into his bed in the hospital to be with him, which she also did with Rock Hudson, so he is perfect. Casting for Raymond Shaw. And Frankenheimer said that Harvey was perfect because Shaw is, in essence, a loathsome man. Sinatra says that. Sinatra says, after we started this podcast with that spiel, that they've all been brainwashed to say about Shaw and he's like why am I saying that? I can't stand him? He's a horrible person and Harvey could portray that. Harvey could portray a lonesome person, but he could still be likable.

Brad Shreve: 31:02

And that was also one of the triggers that Sinatra had that something is up.

Tony Maietta: 31:06

Yeah, exactly Because he's like. Why am I saying this? What is the exact quote, brad?

Brad Shreve: 31:10

The exact quote and everybody in the platoon was hypnotized to say this is Raymond. Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

Tony Maietta: 31:21

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 31:22

And when he has this realization that there's something wrong with that, he then says it's not that Robert Shaw is hard to like, he's impossible to like Exactly exactly, and Lawrence Harvey has that to a T.

Tony Maietta: 31:35

He's a terrible, he's loathsome, but there's also something very sad about him. Yes, and Harvey taps into that. And I remember one critic I read one critic said of Lawrence Harvey that he was a thin Bela Lugosi. He's lean and cruel and foreign as Dracula, and that's it. That's the thing about Lawrence Harvey in almost all of his films, certainly in this, certainly in Butterfield 8. He is lean and mean, but there is something about him which makes you feel for him, and I think you feel for Shaw in this movie you have to. I think you feel for Shaw in this movie you have to.

Brad Shreve: 32:11

There were moments that I hated him, but that was usually masked by the pain I had for him. I really was sad for this man In the way he obviously was raised. So, yeah, this evil character was created Not evil, but basically a horrible person was created.

Tony Maietta: 32:28

Yeah, exactly Exactly. He was created and he was the perfect candidate. Oh, and he was the perfect candidate. He was the perfect candidate for this because he was so beaten by his mother. You know that it was. It was he's the perfect choice to become this assassin, to become this brainwashed assassin Brainwashed and dry cleaned, as they say. Um, so there's another, there's one more star in this film, and I got to ask you, brad, your ideas about this, because I'm asking myself, as I'm watching this, why the hell is Janet Leigh in this film?

Brad Shreve: 33:00

Well, you know, I have asked myself that many, many times. Because she serves on the surface, she serves no purpose. It's like what is this person? Why? Why is she even in it? She doesn't move the story in any way, and the only reason I could see that she's in this? First of all, she looks gorgeous.

Tony Maietta: 33:16

Oh yeah, she's a beautiful, beautiful woman.

Brad Shreve: 33:20

Jamie Lee Curtis loves her mother in this film and said her mother is very proud of her role in this film. She should be, and she does play it well, but again, why? Why is she in on this?

Tony Maietta: 33:31

well, that's true, didn't you? Yes, yes. The way axelrod, a brilliant screenwriter, as we said breakfast at tiffany's seven year itch, the film, um, you know, yes, and the way those scenes with frank sinatra are written. They're written with such nonsense when they ask if they're arabic and they say things to other, which it makes you wonder what the fuck are they talking about, what the hell is going on here, and that's all part of the duplicity, that's all part of the mystery of this movie.

Brad Shreve: 34:01

Well, and especially, you have to add in how they met. Yes, he is nervous on this train because he's dealing with all this stuff going on in his head.

Tony Maietta: 34:09

He's got the sweats.

Brad Shreve: 34:10

Yeah, he's got the sweats, he's shaking. So he steps between the cars, the area where the wind gusts through, and she just comes out and is very forward especially for 1962, and basically nearly seduces the man, Basically says I want you without saying I want you. And it's like why would anybody do that? She doesn't even know the man this. Why would anybody do that? She doesn't even know the man, this shaky, sweaty man. What is attracting her to?

Tony Maietta: 34:33

him. Not only that. So it adds to that. Not only that the next scene she's dumped her fiance, and then the next scene they're living together. So you're like what is wrong with this woman? This is such a 1960s. Yes, so Janet Leigh plays Eugenie Rose Chaney in this film, and the reason that she's in this film and this is what Frankenheimer said is she basically plays the girl. Air quotes. Her role is purposely underwritten and her primary reason to be in this film is to give Sinatra somebody to talk to. That's it I could see that.

Tony Maietta: 35:08

Sinatra needs somebody to talk to, so she's the girl Back in the golden age of Hollywood. Perfect example is Seven Year Itch. Marilyn Monroe does not have a name in the Seven Year Itch. She's called the girl. Same thing with Janet Leigh At least they gave Janet Leigh a name in this, but she is, air quotes, the girl in this because Frank Sinatra needs somebody to talk to, somebody to talk to Somebody to relate to, otherwise he just it grounds him, it makes him human. A love interest, obviously. But here's a story.

Tony Maietta: 35:45

You mentioned Jamie Lee Curtis and how proud she was of her mother in this role, as she should be, because even though Janet Leigh has very little to play, she's very good. She was served with divorce papers from Tony Curtis on the first day of filming and they filmed that train scene. So can you imagine that it's like Mia Farrow and Frank Sinatra ironically getting divorce papers on the movie set. So she gets divorce papers from Tony Curtis, unbeknownst to her, when she's just about to film the first scene in this film. And she's wonderful. She's wonderful, but really and she's third build, she might even be second build um in this third, she's third she's third build in this and really you're like um, why is she?

Tony Maietta: 36:23

who's she playing? Why is she in this?

Brad Shreve: 36:25

but that's why so, yeah, I was wondering if her character was in the novel at all or if she had a much bigger role in the novel, and I don't know. The had a much bigger role in the novel and I don't know the answer to that because I didn't really. Let me talk about this, because I always say this thing I don't like comparing novels to the book or to the movies.

Brad Shreve: 36:42

I like to see what was changed, but I don't say this was a great novel, terrible movie, vice versa. You have to separate them.

Tony Maietta: 36:47

You do.

Brad Shreve: 36:52

You can say this was a terrible movie, but don't base it on the book. But there's another thing. I, I, a lot of people get really upset about remakes. They're like, oh my god, hollywood, just they. Why are they always making remakes these days? Why can't they be more creative like they used to be? Remakes started from the very first reel. I mean, yes, my god, how many times some of those earliest films were made over and over and over again. Look how many times A Star is Born was made. So it is nothing new. So I don't mind remakes. However, I have not seen, and have no desire to see, the 2004 version of this with Denzel Washington, because I love this movie so much.

Tony Maietta: 37:27

Well, that's fair. There's a lot of movies I love which I don't want to see the remake of, but you got Meryl Streep playing the Angela Lansbury role, so hello. And Jonathan Demme directed it, and Jonathan Demme is a great director. But I understand what you're saying and I agree with you about that. I saw it watching St Elsewhere and I loved and adored the man for anything but his acting. But I just liked.

Brad Shreve: 37:58

Looking at him, I'm like why does he have a bigger role in this show? Because they rarely did anything with him. But I've seen him do great roles and I've seen him like, oh, this is really bad. So yeah, the numbers on Rotten Tomatoes are not great for the film. They're not horrible horrible.

Tony Maietta: 38:11

I mean, I prefer this, obviously. I mean the cast alone. And hello, the director Frankenheimer. I mean this man, he does so many things in this film which are just so startling. He began as a TV director, like so many of them did, and actually William Friedkin, who we've talked about before in Boys in the Band, and he also directed the French Connection. I mean, we know who William Friedkin is. He called Frankenheimer the greatest director of his generation. Now, that's pretty astounding. And Frankenheimer developed his skills directing these live, dramatic television specials which he brings to this film.

Tony Maietta: 38:51

This film has a very documentary-like feel. It's very immediate. You feel like it's now. It doesn't seem 1962 to me, other than the fashions and the cars. It's very immediate is the word, and that's Frankenheimer's style. And he achieved this by doing these live television dramas when everything was. It was live, it was happening now and that's why this film is like this. But he does so many amazing things in this film.

Tony Maietta: 39:19

We talked about the 360 shot of brainwashing. That camera does not stop, it goes all the way around, from subjective viewpoint to objective viewpoint. Um, he uses and we talked about this in the Little Foxes, he uses 18 millimeter lenses for deep focus. There is a lot of deep focus in this film and basically what that means to remind people. Deep focus is when the background and the middle ground and the foreground are all in sharp focus. You can see everything. It's a storytelling technique. You can see everything. It's a storytelling technique If I can see what's happening in the foreground and the background. You've just given me twice as much information as if it were a regular shot and I couldn't see what was going on in the background. That's why he does it. And frequently in the Manchurian candidate you get a really large head in the foreground and a smaller one in the background and they're talking to each other and you can see exactly the reactions they both have. Frank and I are also.

Tony Maietta: 40:18

Most of the scenes in the Manchurian Candidate are long scenes. They are two shots mostly, and that's. A skilled actor can do a long shot, can do a long take, a long shot. But here's the thing Sinatra is very famous for only doing one take, and Frankenheimer said this was not out of a sense of entitlement. Sinatra would leave sets when a director asked for a second take. He's like no, I did it, it's done. Frankenheimer said it wasn't out of a sense of entitlement. He just knew that his first take was always the best take. And there's a very famous story about the deprogramming scene in the Manchurian Candidate. Do you know that story about Frank Sinatra and Lawrence Harvey and the camera being out of focus?

Brad Shreve: 41:07

There's actually not just that scene. There's another scene, one or two other scenes where people believe that it was done for artistic purposes, when it was not yeah, exactly, I believe that's where you're going.

Tony Maietta: 41:17

Yes, do you want to? Do you want to tell that?

Brad Shreve: 41:20

yeah, there were two. The scene tony's talking about is frank sinatra's out of focus in this important scene and people thought, oh, this was an artistic choice by frankenheimer and I've seen, seen interviews with Frankenheimer or read interviews with Frankenheimer. He's like, no, they weren't artistic choices. Sinatra just said it's a one-take thing, so we left it in. Here's what happened.

Tony Maietta: 41:42

So it's the scene in the hotel room outside of Madison Square Garden and it's the deprogramming scene. It's where Frank Sinatra comes with the deck of cards that are all the Queen of Diamonds, to deprogram Shaw from the brainwashing. And what happened was was that when they were filming Sinatra's scene, something happened to the assistant cameraman, the camera operator, and it was out of focus, slightly out of focus, and Raymond Shaw, lawrence Harvey on the reverse scene is in sharp focus. And when Frankenheimer shot it he thought, oh my God, this is great Sinatra's brilliant One take, brilliant.

Tony Maietta: 42:18

And then they developed it and saw it the next day and he's like, oh shit, he's out of focus. I'm going to have to tell Frank Sinatra we have to do this again. He said it was the longest walk in his life to walk to Frank Sinatra's dressing room and tell him we have to reshoot this very difficult, tense scene that Sinatra got on the first take. So they tried, they did it, I think about 10 or 11 times over a series of days and Sinatra just could not get it up again. He just couldn't. He was right, he knew he could do.

Tony Maietta: 42:49

The first take was his best take. Just couldn't. He was right, he knew he could do. The first take was his best take. So frankenheimer thought fuck it, I'm gonna leave the shot in slightly out of focus and we'll just deal with it because it's a better acting take. It's better, it's a better performance. And then when the film was released, the critics went oh, isn't frankenheimer brilliant? Because he's reflecting uh shaw's viewpoint. He's reflecting the viewpoint of of a man who has been brainwashed. It's his point of view. So Sinatra's out of focus, but Raymond Shaw's in deep focus and he's like no, it wasn't an artistic choice at all, the cameraman screwed up. But there you go. That's one of the genius things about Frankenheimer is he recognized that and later on it became a legend for absolutely no reason at all.

Brad Shreve: 43:34

Yeah, it's awesome. That's one thing that always drove me crazy when I took English and literature is the amount of times that they would go into. You know, this was an artistic choice by the author. They were trying to make this kind of statement. I'm like maybe they were just trying to tell a story. I got in trouble several times. Oh really, yeah, I know.

Tony Maietta: 43:54

People always have a story to tell. People always have a story. So I think that another one of my favorite scenes and I think one of the very famous scenes in this film is one of the things I mean. Think about this for a minute McCarthy was only 10 years before the blacklist was still around. It had been broken by Spartacus in a way, but it was still around. So it was a very dangerous thing to do this obvious take on McCarthy, and one of the things McCarthy used to do was famous for was just spouting out numbers of communists. There are 94 communists in Senate.

Tony Maietta: 44:28

There are 100. The number would always change and that's what Senator Iceland does. And there's a scene in the manchurian canada in this film where angela lands. He says to angela lansbury, please, just because he's totally her whipping boy, I mean, she is no doubt who wears the pants in this relationship. And james gregory is so funny and he's like just give me a number, I just need a number to stick to. And he's saying it. He has a ketchup bottle in his hand. He's hitting the back of the ketchup bottle to put ketchup on his steak and she looks at it ketchup bottle. And then the next shot, it cuts and he says there are 57 communists.

Brad Shreve: 45:05

And I didn't catch that the first, because I just watched this a couple of times. I didn't catch that the first time. And the second time was how did I miss that?

Tony Maietta: 45:11

It's the Heinz bottle 57. Yes, this is why this film and we've talked about this, I say this all the time this film is a satire. You know, condon viewed his book as a satire. Frankenheimer approaches this just like Lumet approached Network as a satire. That's why there's the narration, that's why we have scenes like the Heinz 57. Because the humor makes it all the more horrific and I really I feel like that's why this film is so. It's so gut-wrenching today, because we see the humor but we know the reality of what's happening in the world today and that's what I wanted to bring up.

Brad Shreve: 45:53

This movie came out in 1962. 40 years later the remake came out and they're political thrillers. So how can a political thriller in 1962 apply to 2004? Well, I'll tell you. It applies to today. And I want to point this out by giving at least three lines from this film, and we don't have to get deep into politics, but I think everybody will connect. The first one is this line's from the film the weak must be led, the strong must be watched. Then the next two really hit the home there is nothing so absurd that it cannot be believed as truth. And the third one, the biggie for me, is the greater the lie, the more likely it is to be believed.

Tony Maietta: 46:39

Oh boy, is that true?

Brad Shreve: 46:40

Tell me none of this. I don't think any of that plays today.

Tony Maietta: 46:43

Not at all, not at all. Not in the age of alternative facts and truthisms. And it's really kind of frightening that we deal with Manchurian candidates today, but in 1962, it was dealing with communism and it's amazing, it's amazing.

Brad Shreve: 47:04

I forgot to mention. I told you there were two things that I remembered wrong in this film. The first is that they showed right up front that this was a mind control situation. The second one is I remembered in the film remember this was all very blurry so I didn't remember details I remember the film that the plot succeeded. What I also remember is that the Shaw character became president at the end, because I thought this took place much longer after the war. You got it totally wrong. I did get it totally wrong and I'm glad because it made it much more interesting to me, because it was like watching it for the first time. So it is funny how your brain can really mess things up. I like the way it was done.

Brad Shreve: 47:46

It was still a surprise ending. There were lots of twists and turns and surprises, as I said, Janet Leigh.

Tony Maietta: 48:06

You knew there were moments where you're like this woman is part of this conspiracy and she really served no other purpose than that, other than to bounce his ideas off, of which I know is done frequently, and it's done well in this. Yeah, so, and it's to kind of put it in the context, you usually do this. You usually talk about films that were out the same year.

Brad Shreve: 48:15

Yeah, I can give them to you, and this movie was number 16 that year. As we said, it didn't do great financially. The total to today is great because of how well it's done since then. So the top films of 1962. The first is the Longest Day, the second is Lawrence of Arabia. The third is In Search of Castaways, which I don't even know if I've ever heard of that film. Number four is that Tunch of Mink and number five is the Music man, which I used to love as a musical and lately I've watched it a couple of times. I'm like this isn't really all that good, though I love Shirley Jo's.

Tony Maietta: 48:48

Yeah.

Brad Shreve: 48:53

Now other memorable films that I think people will remember more than those top five or some of them will. Uh, we had to kill a mockingbird, a mutiny on the bounty lolita days of wine and roses, which we've discussed doing on the show.

Tony Maietta: 49:03

And when we did discuss on the show is whatever happened to baby jade right, so that give you a frame of reference of what the big films were that year well, yeah, and as I said in our Whatever Happened to Baby Jane episode, there are arguments that 1962 is Hollywood's greatest year not 1939. Because of the fact that we had Lawrence of Arabia and the Manchurian Candidate and Baby Jane and To Kill a Mockingbird, I mean so Long Day's Journey into Night, another one that was 62. So yeah, it was 62. So yeah, it was an astounding year for film and that's an argument that I lean more towards some days. I mean, I love 1939, god knows. But wow, these films are amazing and Lansbury again, as we said, was nominated for Best Supporting Actress.

Tony Maietta: 49:51

For this the film also got an Oscar nomination for Best Film Editing. Both lost Lansbury lost to Patty Duke. Also nominated that year were Mary Badham for To Kill a Mockingbird, shirley Knight for Sweet Bird of Youth, thelma Ritter for Birdman of Alcatraz. So these are all great performances. I'm not going to take an Oscar away from Patty Duke in the Miracle Worker, but God, lansbury did win National Board of Review Award and also for this and for All Fall Down. So at least she got something for this and she won a Golden Globe for this.

Brad Shreve: 50:26

Okay, I knew she won a Golden Globe. I wasn't sure if it was this film.

Tony Maietta: 50:29

Yes. So that's at least something for her. But I mean and she said this too when the film was rediscovered not rediscovered but was reissued in 88 and kind of became this moment in our culture, when this film was re-released, she said she was so grateful that happened because she felt it was the best work she'd ever done. She felt it was the best work Sinatra ever did, which I agree with her. She felt it was the best work Lawrence Harvey ever did, which I also agree with her. And also I mean Frankenheimer.

Tony Maietta: 51:03

You know he had some other big films, but this is not to this level. I mean this is a mythic film. He did Seven Days in May. He did Grand Prix. He did a wonderful film called Seconds, which I would love to talk about sometime with Rock Hudson, which is another film very similar to this. It's got that same kind of documentary style. But how do you argue with a Manchurian candidate? I mean this is a crowning achievement. So thank God it was reissued and it had its moment and it's now in the pantheon of great films.

Brad Shreve: 51:34

I'm amazed how many people don't know about this film. I kind of said the same thing about what's Up, Doc, and you were astonished that. I would say that I am astonished, but I think among the general populace and I could be wrong people think that 2004 was the version.

Tony Maietta: 51:48

Oh, ooh.

Brad Shreve: 51:50

Yeah.

Tony Maietta: 51:50

I don't like that at all.

Brad Shreve: 51:56

No version. Oh yeah, I don't like that at all. No, because at this movie, just I watched it and I said no, like I said, all I remembered was I loved it and I, when it ended, I'm like I remember why. Yeah, this is just astounding.

Tony Maietta: 52:05

I think a lot of people are afraid of this film. I think they don't really understand what it's about, it seems. I mean, the title alone is daunting, because what is a Manchurian Candidate? Well, we just told you. We just told you what the film is. So, by all means, if you haven't seen it, god bless you. We just told you the whole film, go watch it, because there's a lot of things we didn't cover and it's brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Brad Shreve: 52:29

Before we go, let me tell you how it did in Rotten Tomatoes. The critics' score was 97%, so nearly 100. That's not very often that happens, and the audience score was still fabulous. It was a 90%. So yeah, this is a great film. Obviously, the critics love it, the audiences love it and Tony and I love it. So pull it up again. Absolutely, brad. One more thing before we go If this is your first time, or maybe even your second time, listening to this podcast, we're not expecting to do a review. It would be great if you did. Yeah, but get to know us a little better. But if nothing else, subscribe. However, those of you that listen to us almost every week, which we know it should be every week, but we're reality here Once again, if you listened this long, it means you probably enjoyed the show. Go give us a review. We have five stars, but we'll take anything.

Tony Maietta: 53:18

Well, no, we won't. We don't want a one star, come on.

Brad Shreve: 53:22

Well, I got to tell you our first four star Tony's like. I'm really let down by that four star. Eventually it's going to happen. We're working our asses off up here, but you that are listening right now, don't give us the one star we're working our asses off.

Tony Maietta: 53:37

Well, that was our final film for our Mother's May celebration. I think we did a good job. I think we really ran the gamut of mothers in this month, and thanks everybody for listening and indulging us in our little mother's may celebration. Now we're back to our our regularly scheduled programming, although it is June, so there might be a couple surprises coming up in June for pride month.

Brad Shreve: 54:02

One surprise is that Tony gave me two movies to choose in a role which I got. To tell you, I usually have to fight for my film.

Tony Maietta: 54:08

These were. These were pretty easy. Thank usually have to fight for my films.

Brad Shreve: 54:10

These were pretty easy. Thank you for allowing me this one and next week. All I'm going to say is the reason I wanted to do the film is because I re-watched the film and it was an actress that she blew me away. And I think she's adored by almost everyone.

Tony Maietta: 54:23

Right, I agree with you. I agree with you and, yes, I did give you the power, Brad, but don't turn into a Manchurian candidate and don't bastardize the power I gave you. No, we got some good stuff coming up so well. Is there anything else we want to say about the Manchurian candidate and this phenomenal cast of people who brought it together and the director who made it possible?

Brad Shreve: 54:46

No, I think we said it all. Like I said, the most important thing is go watch it again.

Tony Maietta: 54:51

Well, I guess there's only one thing left to say. But let's not say goodbye Brad, let's say Cheerio, governor.

Brad Shreve: 55:02

Well, thanks for the laugh, but no, let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta: 55:05

All right.

Brad Shreve: 55:12

That's all folks.