Clips from Alice 0:00

Sorry to keep you waiting , henry . No problem , who's in a hurry to eat Mel's cooking ?

Clips from Alice 0:05

I can't figure it out . It opened for over two hours now and we've only had one customer . Don't worry , there's probably a good reason . Food is the same as it's always been . That's a good reason .

Clips from Alice 0:21

Frankly , Alice , I could show you a thing or two about raising a son . Oh , you could huh . Gee Mel . I could show you a thing or two about raising a son . .

Clips from Alice 0:26

Oh , you could huh , gee Mel , I wish you were my mother .

Clips from Alice 0:30

Nothing personal , Mom , but that's the way you really feel , isn't it ? Well , it's either you or the dirt bike . One of you has got to go . Last night I just started having this feeling for Mel and uh , well it . At first , you know , I thought I might have low blood sugar . You know , they say that can affect the mind . Hello , yeah , how do you discourage a man from making physical advances to you ? I don't Kiss my grits .

Tony Maietta 1:19

Hello , I'm film historian Tony Maietta .

Brad Shreve 1:22

And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes movies .

Tony Maietta 1:26

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age . We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too .

Brad Shreve 1:32

And , of course , being the average guy , my opinions are the ones that matter .

Tony Maietta 1:37

As does your self-delusion . Welcome to Going Hollywood , ugh .

Brad Shreve 1:46

What ? What's the matter ?

Tony Maietta 1:49

Ugh that beginning . I'm so bored with it .

Brad Shreve 1:54

Beginning .

Tony Maietta 1:55

Yeah , you know , da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da Ugh , it's boring . Oh , I don't know about that . I mean , okay , look , all right , you know it . All right , it was fine . It was fine for our first season . But you know , brad , we're into our second season now . Don't you think maybe we could refresh it , maybe jazz it up a little bit ?

Brad Shreve 2:15

I don't know about that . What do you mean ? Jazz it up ?

Tony Maietta 2:18

Well , you know , maybe a little jazz , a little scat , a little like dun A little jazz , a little scat , a little like you know , I'm not sure about that , tony . Oh , come on Just a little bit . We could just have a little Do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do , do do , and then we can end it with a boom , boom , boom , boom , boom . What do you think ?

Brad Shreve 2:54

It rings a bell . I think I may have heard that song before .

Tony Maietta 3:00

Yes , yes , you have , yes , indeed , yes , yes , you have , yes , indeed . Welcome to our Mother's May TV episode . And you have heard that song before , because it's one of the most iconic theme songs , I think , in TV history the theme from Alice , also known as New Girl in Town , by Marilyn and Alan Bergman and David Shire .

Brad Shreve 3:25

And you're implying we should change our theme song every season .

Tony Maietta 3:29

Well , Linda Lavin did . She didn't . Okay , linda Lavin allegedly recorded a new version of the theme song every single year , almost every single year , but it is . I mean , it's like Mary Tyler Moore's , which , ironically , you know . You know it the minute you hear it . There are two different versions amongst all the versions of the Alice theme song , like Mary Tyler Moore , you know , for first season , and then it changed after that .

Brad Shreve 3:58

Well , the first season was the one that made you want to slit your wrist .

Tony Maietta 4:02

Did you think Early to rest ?

Brad Shreve 4:04

No , no , no , Early to rest . No , no , no , early to rest . I mean , it's just , she sounds so depressed that she's stuck there in a diner .

Tony Maietta 4:10

Well , no , she's getting out to her new life and I promised myself , Brad , that I wasn't going to sing the theme song . I was just going to allow myself to scat it because we don't want to , we don't want to awaken the internet spiders , but I did want to tell you something very funny . Do you know who Mo Rocca is ?

Brad Shreve 4:32

Mo Rocca , mo Rocca . No , I love the name .

Tony Maietta 4:35

He's on the CBS Sunday morning show Okay , and he interviewed Linda Lavin in 2020 . And God bless him . I think he did what every gay man of a certain age wants to do .

Tony Maietta 4:48

And he asked Linda Lavin of the two theme songs , which ending she preferred ? Did she prefer boom boom , boom , boom boom or did she prefer excuse my falsetto sweet , excuse my falsetto Sweet ? And she said Actually , that was not a falsetto . And she said she preferred First of all . She said she'd never been asked that before and I'm like really . And she said she preferred Boom , boom , boom , boom boom . I agree , oh my God , it's in again , the fabric of my childhood . I'm so excited to be talking about alice today for our mother's day episode . You know , bro , what are your , what are your memories of this show of alice ?

Brad Shreve 5:36

um , you know , I I remember watching it and I'm gonna be honest , I remember I watched it probably every week until the later seasons , I think , like the rest of the world , and I remember thinking this isn't so great , but I liked it . You know , I watched it anyway . I thought it was kind of a 70s thing , I think so , and I was always wanting to spend more time at alice's home oh , really , not the diner , not the dinner .

Brad Shreve 6:01

No , when they had more stories at the home , I liked it . I think it's because I wanted to see a little more of her life .

Tony Maietta 6:11

There was a time in there where they were going to eliminate the home stories completely when the Stroh was having some issues its first year . But we'll get into that . We'll get into that and that doesn't surprise me . This show for me it's a huge chunk of my childhood because I was thinking about it . The show premiered in 1976 . And the character of Tommy , alice's son , is 10 and a half , so he's just a little bit older than I was . So basically , I was experiencing the same kind of adolescent spurts , adolescent angst , that the character of Tommy was during this . So that's really interesting to think about that and what I remember is it just seems a part of my life and in fact , in that same Mo Rocca interview he asked her about that and I want to play something for you . I actually have something that I want to play . This is Linda Lavin talking about the show Alice in 2020 .

Linda Lavin Clip 7:09

Latchkey kids that came home from school they watched it in the afternoon on reruns and that Alice was the mother they wished they'd had . And I I hear this and I think , wow it that never occurred to me that that she was such a good mother that she was . She was attractive to young people in that way because she listened . I mean , it occurred to me that we were doing the right thing by approaching her as somebody who was trying to be a good mother .

Tony Maietta 7:51

So that's isn't that interesting . The people up till 20 , this was 2020 . People were going up to her and saying what an effect Alice had on their lives , which I think is kind of amazing .

Brad Shreve 8:03

You know what I mean . That is amazing . I'm sure it's much more rewarding than just saying oh , we love your show . Can I have your autograph ?

Tony Maietta 8:11

No people talk to her about what it meant to them and so , anyway , so I got to do this . So I did that . I knew Linda Lavin . I met Linda Lavin I guess in the early 2010s through my friend , jim Caruso . He was very good friends with her and I was lucky enough to spend some time with her a few times and talk with her , and I told her that was one of the things I said to her . I said I loved your show as a kid . Your show was like my great babysitter and she really liked it and she really was sweet and appreciative about that . And I think I want to point out too that I wasn't the only one who did that .

Tony Maietta 8:49

One of the reasons we did this , I wanted to do this show for our Mother's Day episode is because , sadly , we lost Linda Lavin in December of December 2024 . And you know what ? She was still working . She died with her boots on , as they say . She was working on the TV show Mid-Century Modern with Nathan Lane and friend of the pod , matt Bomer , and Matt said that he was grateful that he was able to express his thanks to Linda for Alice as well . So I think a lot of people felt that way about her . She felt like maybe not your mother , but she felt like a surrogate mother . She was a surrogate mother and that's why I think it's kind of nice to talk about her for this Mother's May celebration .

Brad Shreve 9:34

Her and her relationship with Tommy felt real .

Tony Maietta 9:38

Yes , it did . It felt like a real mother-son right , yes .

Tony Maietta 9:42

Yeah , you know , and it's interesting , it felt like a real mother-son , right . Yes , yeah , you know , and it's interesting . We kind of made we talked about how Alice touched so many people and later in that interview Mo Rocca asked her how Alice affected her and she said that the role of Alice I mean she was an actress , she was a working actress , she didn't have any kids , she never worked in a diner , you know . But she said that the role of Alice really woke her up to the inequities of women in the workforce .

Tony Maietta 10:10

Because when you think , if you really think about it , alice Hyatt was really kind of a blue collar or pink collar version of Mary Richards . She was a single working person . Oh , totally . And so Lavin said that this role really politicized her . She became very politicized over equal rights . She stumped for the ERA , for equal pay , for equal work , and she was actually invited by the National Commission on Working Women to speak in Washington DC about equal pay and she said she was very nervous and the only way she could do it was to do it as Alice Hyatt .

Tony Maietta 10:48

So she did and she wore her Alice uniform when she gave the speech and later on . You know that uniform was donated to the Smithsonian . So , I mean , when you think about that , that's pretty amazing .

Brad Shreve 11:00

That's pretty amazing . That really is amazing . I knew nothing of that story whatsoever .

Tony Maietta 11:07

Yeah , she was an amazing woman . Like I said , I wanted to do this because she passed , but also because she touched my life in so many ways , even before I knew her , and she was such a truly unique and gifted actress . And I think people don't necessarily realize that about her because Alice is so famous and she had a very , very unique gift as an actress . I saw her on stage when I was in college in her Tony Award winning role on Broadway Bound , which was nothing like Alice Hyatt nothing and she totally changed the way I thought about acting . She was so wonderful and I was so grateful that I was able to express that to her in her lifetime and how much she affected me . Yeah , her talent was deep and unpredictable and not at all as a person . She was not at all what you would expect her to be as Alice Hyatt .

Brad Shreve 12:04

Yeah , and I don't mean this as a diss on the show , but when I was watching it I thought she is really too talented for this .

Tony Maietta 12:12

I know it was a regular paycheck .

Brad Shreve 12:13

Who could blame her ? But I'm like she really should be doing more than this .

Tony Maietta 12:18

Well , you know , it's funny , that show . I mean , when I went back to watch the shows again I was like , oh , this is a lot worse than I remember this being a wonderful show . And I was watching particularly the pilot , and I was like , oh , this is bad .

Brad Shreve 12:33

Well , the pilot's terrible , but you kind of like that slight . Except I was like how did this sell ?

Tony Maietta 12:39

Well , that's it . I'm thinking they bought this . I mean think about it , though . The Mary Tyler Moore Show pilot was a brilliant TV episode .

Brad Shreve 12:46

Oh it was awesome . Yeah , it was one of the best pilots ever Brilliant .

Tony Maietta 12:48

One of the best pilots ever . You look at Alice and you're like what ? But then here's the key and I want to talk about this in the history of the series is that the later episodes episodes , I'd say , probably after the third season are really fun and really good . So that's what I did . I went back and I watched the future ones . I was like , oh , this is the show I remember , this is the show I remember that I loved and I laughed at . So we'll talk about that .

Brad Shreve 13:13

But I do just want to give a little bit more background about Linda Lavin , if I may Do want to throw one thing in here we're not going to talk about deeply until towards the end , sure , but my husband , maurice , his father , was in the military and during most of this time period he was in Spain , so he never saw most of these sitcoms from that era . So , yeah , the one show that he remembers most is Los Angeles de Charlie , charlie's Angels .

Tony Maietta 13:44

How would you translate Alisa Alisa .

Brad Shreve 13:47

Alisa , so this was his first time watching , so we'll talk about his reaction .

Tony Maietta 13:51

Oh , I want to hear that reaction Very different perspective than what you and I have . It depends on what season you watch but anyway , like I said she was , lavin was .

Tony Maietta 14:00

Her talent was rich and deep and I think you're probably right , it probably was too rich and deep for a sitcom . But she also brought those gifts to the show and I think it helped make the show , as the series went on , richer and deeper and more substantial . She moved to New York City . She worked on Broadway . She did some great shows on Broadway . She was in a show called it's a Burn , it's a Plane , it's Superman , in which she sings this wonderful song called You've Got Possibilities . And then in the early 80s she moved to Los Angeles with her husband . She was married to actor Ron Rifkin at the time . She moved to LA and she began to work on TV and before Alice , her most prominent role was on Barney Miller . Did you ever see her on Barney Miller ?

Brad Shreve 14:48

No , I don't , and I really liked Barney Miller , except like all the 70s shows . Why do they have one jail ? Yeah well , it's a small prison , you forgive those back then , but I loved Barney Miller and I don't remember her at all .

Tony Maietta 15:02

She had a small reoccurring role in Barney Miller as Detective Janice Wentworth . But you know , my very favorite pre-Alice role of hers was a guest shot on Rhoda . Now , did you ever see that ?

Brad Shreve 15:13

I can't believe we did Rhoda and I don't remember that at all because I did . I run through the whole series , I did watch the whole series and I don't remember her .

Tony Maietta 15:21

We touched on this episode . It's a very funny episode . It's Rhoda's bridal shower and she plays this high school nemesis of Rhoda's and she is so funny . If you haven't watched it , watch it .

Brad Shreve 15:34

I remember that episode . I don't remember that was her .

Tony Maietta 15:37

That's how good she was . She's so funny because she's nothing like Alice . I mean she is a real bitch to Valerie Harper in this , but she's funny . She's so funny . And that's the thing about Linda Lavin is that this talent was so multifaceted . I mean she sang , she danced , she played Mama Rose in Gypsy . For Christ's sake in the 90s , this woman could do anything . So to limit her to this box of oh air quotes sitcom actress is really kind of a myth I'm trying to dispel here . And you know the show Alice . When she was eventually offered the show Alice she was a little hesitant , but she also knew that this was probably the next . It would certainly the next step forward in her career . But before we go any further , I just want to say we need to lay some ground rules , because this show was on for nine seasons . Okay .

Tony Maietta 16:28

And this podcast has the potential of being just as long , so let's just say this right now we are not going to talk about the film Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore that this show is based on . It's a wonderful film . Ellen Burstyn won an Oscar for Best Actress . Please watch it . Maybe we'll talk about it sometime , but we'll only talk about Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore as it pertains to this TV show . Right ? Does that seem fair to you ?

Brad Shreve 16:55

That seems fair to me . Okay , great , and it's been a long time since I saw that movie , anyway . Yeah , what I will say I remember most and I'm sure we'll get into it more later is it was like the transition from Mary Tyler Moore to Lou Grant .

Tony Maietta 17:09

In reverse .

Brad Shreve 17:10

Yeah , this was reverse , even though it wasn't really necessarily a spinoff . The movie was very dark at times .

Tony Maietta 17:17

Yeah , no , absolutely .

Brad Shreve 17:19

This was a sitcom . It's really odd to me that somebody said let's make a sitcom out of that movie . Yes , yes , so yes , yes .

Tony Maietta 17:26

So , yeah , well , what happened ? Well , the guy who said that was producer David Suskind . He was a TV producer and he was also a talk show host , and he hired Robert Getchell to adapt the movie into a sitcom and they made some changes in it . Instead of her wanting to return to Monterey , as she does in the film , she heads to Hollywood with Tommy to work as a singer . In the TV show , her car breaks down in Phoenix . In the movie it's Tucson , and a lack of money and the car trouble forces her to set up life in Phoenix and get a job waitressing at Mel's Diner . In the TV show and in the film it's Mel and Ruby's Cafe , and Mel is married and they're both played by Vic Tabak .

Brad Shreve 18:09

Wasn't he a widower in the movie and he kept his wife's name on the diner , I think ? Oh , anyway , we're not going to go into depth in that . Yeah , I think you're right though . Yeah , you're right , you're right . Yeah , he was a widower .

Tony Maietta 18:19

He was a widower . I apologize about that . So many notes . So Susskind's producer , bruce Johnson , reached out to Alan Burstyn about reprising her role and she's like no thanks , I won an Oscar , I'm moving on , I'm not going to do TV . And , as I said , lavin was a little hesitant but she found the concept really engaging , especially the idea of sisterhood . She loved the way these waitresses bonded together . She saw Alice and she saw Flo and she saw Vera as survivors . So this relationship was a really important part of the success of the show , I think , and the characters and the actresses who were cast . Do you want to tell us a little bit about some of those actresses who were cast in this TV show ?

Brad Shreve 19:03

Yeah , we have Linda Lavin , of course , as Ellis Hyatt , and yes , she was definitely the star , without a doubt , but it was somewhat of an ensemble show as well . The other characters didn't get their primary focus of the show that often , but they did at times and they certainly were involved enough . They were almost every scene . So after Linda Lavin we had Vic Tabak , very talented actor who has been in I don't know how many shows and movies he played Mal Sharples . Philip McKeon played Tommy after the pilot , and I want to find out from you why . Beth Holland played Vera . Polly Holliday was Florence Jean Castleberry and she ran for the first four seasons until they spun her off to an ungodly terrible series . Then we had Diane Ladd as Belle Dupree for seasons four and five and she didn't stay around too long , and then we ended the last three seasons with Celia Weston as Jolene Honeycutt .

Tony Maietta 20:02

Right Celia .

Brad Shreve 20:03

Weston as Jolene Honeycutt , and , I have to add , you had a rotating group of characters , both family members and regulars at the restaurant that you'll recognize , pretty well known , and I'm just going to toss out a few of them Marvin Kaplan , who he's been in everything and anything . Henry , henry , he was Henry . Was he the one that ran the garage in ?

Tony Maietta 20:25

uh , it's a mad , mad , mad world yes , he was good eye , brad good eye .

Brad Shreve 20:32

It dawned on me like the last episode that we watched of this , it's those glasses . It's those glasses . And then Dave Madden , who I didn't really like on this show , but I liked him a lot as Reuben Kincaid .

Tony Maietta 20:44

Oh yeah .

Brad Shreve 20:45

Partridge Family , but Partridge Family is one of my favorites from childhood . We had Martha Ray who played Mel's mother . Yes , she came and went , doris Roberts , and you went Doris Roberts , and you would know Doris Roberts by face , first of all , she's most known for playing Raymond's mother on .

Tony Maietta 21:00

Everybody Loves Raymond . She's Marie Barone , for God's sake , yes .

Brad Shreve 21:04

She is just wonderful . Just love her to death .

Tony Maietta 21:07

She played Alice's mother . Yes , alice's mother .

Brad Shreve 21:10

On Alice , yes , yes yes , and then we had Robert Picardo . He was he's most known for being Star Trek Voyager . He was the doctor , and those are the ones I think most people would know , at least by face .

Tony Maietta 21:23

Yeah , that pretty much rounds out the cast . I think that's good . Yeah , yeah , so yes , vic Tabak reprises role as Mel . Now they originally went to Diane Ladd , who later played Belle Dupree in the show . But what's her previous connection to Alice Brad ? She played Flo in the movie . She was the original Flo in . Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore , but when they came time to do the TV show she was under contract to NBC and Alice is a CBS show , so she couldn't do it . So they looked around and they came across this wonderful theater actress named Polly Holiday . Now we've talked about Polly Holiday briefly in our Tootsie episode . Why is that Brad ?

Tony Maietta 22:10

uh , because they oh , I can't remember . She was good friends with Dustin Hoffman . She appeared in All the President's Men with him and she helped him with his Southern dialect for Dorothy Michaels in Tootsie Remember .

Brad Shreve 22:27

That's right . Yes , you did , okay . Yes .

Tony Maietta 22:29

And they did it for Meryl Streep .

Brad Shreve 22:32

I got to throw something out there because a lot of people would probably remember her best as the nasty old woman in Gremlins where the one that flew out the window when her elevated chair went flying up in the sky .

Tony Maietta 22:47

So funny Polly Holliday because of the fact that she looks nothing like Flo . I mean that's obviously a wig . Yeah , she is from Alabama , so she does have an Alabama accent , but it's nowhere near as deep as Florence Jean Castleberry's . So people really don't . They're watching Polly Holiday and they don't realize that's Polly Holiday who played Flo , because she just doesn't look the same , she doesn't appear the same . She was in an episode of Golden Girls and she plays Rose's sister and she's nothing like Flo . I mean , she was a wonderful actress . She is a wonderful actress . She's the last surviving original cast member . She's still alive . She's still with us , god bless her . She was offered the part . She thought about the time she worked as a waitress at Howard Johnson's in New York City and she's like I've done this before . So she punched up that Alabama accent , threw that wig on and Florence Jean Castleberry was born .

Tony Maietta 23:38

And , as you said , yes , beth Howland played Vera . Beth Howland was a stage actress mostly known before this for singing the very fast patter song Not Getting Married in the Sondheim Musical Company . And you did mention Alfred Lutter reprising his role as Tommy in the pilot . Only After the pilot was shot , the executives knew this is going to have some problems and one of the things they didn't like was they thought Alfred Lutter wasn't right for the part . They thought he was too old for Tommy . So they found this child actor named Philip McKeon from New York and he got the part and we got an entire acting family when he said yes , because they all moved to California and his sister , nancy , came with him and if you know TV from the 80s , you know who Nancy McKeon is from Facts of Life . You take the good , you take who nancy mckeon is from facts of life .

Brad Shreve 24:34

You take the good , you take the bad , exactly , exactly .

Tony Maietta 24:37

Facts of life exactly so I think . Uh , what I want to point out is is that . So they started filming and that first season was very problematic . They brought in five different producers that first season because they just couldn't get a handle on the show . They knew there was something there , but they just couldn't figure out what it was . They had this handful of very , very talented actors , most of which are from the theater , so they knew they had chops , they knew what they were doing but they could not make it work and so they had five different producers that first year . Just to give a little background .

Tony Maietta 25:12

I'm not going to go too much into this , but in the 70s I think it's pretty safe to say that there were two basic styles of three-camera sitcoms . There was the Mary Tyler Moore style , which harks back to I Love Lucy . It was filmed before a live audience with three cameras . There was music on the play-ins at the beginning of the episode and the play-outs , and it just had a very rich look for a sitcom . Then there was the other side of that was the Norman Lear style , which was shot on videotape . There's no music to play in or play out or soften it . It has a very gritty look more of a realistic feel , you know . And the Norman Lear style also incorporates a lot of close-ups , particularly extreme close-ups , to punctuate points of drama . So that's another difference there . So videotape looks more immediate , it's like it's more real , and film has more of a fantasy layer , if you want , to a storytelling layer . So those are these two styles . Now , alice wasn't filmed , alice was shot on videotape .

Tony Maietta 26:16

However , the first season of Alice is very much in the Norman Lear style . You know , the pilot was actually directed by Paul Bogart , who directed many episodes of All in the Family . There's no music to bring you into the episode , there's no music bringing you out . You know , there's a lot of close-ups to punctuate the drama . And there's actually a lot of drama in these first season episodes . There's actually an episode in the first season called Good Night , sweet Vera , in which Vera tries to commit suicide . Now , you would never see something like that in a later episode . You know what I mean . No , the episodes are pretty good the first season , but CBS just was not happy with it . You know , they just could not figure out why this won't work . So and this is going somewhere I swear On the Warner Brothers lot where Alice shot about the same time they were filming the first season , lucille Ball was filming a TV special , and who was on the set of her TV special ?

Tony Maietta 27:14

But her two mainstay writers from way back since radio , bob Carroll Jr and Madeline Davis . So the EPs of Alice contacted Carolyn Davis and asked them to come on as producers of Alice Now . So what did they do ? Well , they brought in that same style that began with Lucy . They didn't start filming it it was still being videotaped but they brought with them that whole idea of the music playing in the music playing out less close-ups . They spiffed up the diner so it didn't look so gritty and , most important of all , they brought in many of their old I Love Lucy cronies . So think about this this is 25 years after I Love Lucy .

Tony Maietta 27:59

And they brought in Mark Daniels who directed much of the first season of I Love Lucy . He was the primary director on Alice . William Asher was there too . Liz Montgomery's ex-husband came in and directed some . He directed Job Switching , the Candy Factory episode of I Love Lucy . They brought in Arthur Marks , son of Groucho Marks , and he wrote episodes along with Robert Fisher and Linda Morris , and Davis and Carroll reviewed every aspect of the series and they served for ways to make it stronger and they went right to the characters . They thought the characters were the show's heart and what they did was . They talked with each actor about their characters and what they liked and what they didn't . And Vic Tabak was upset because he thought Mel had no depth . He thought Mel was just tough . He wanted Mel to have more depth , be more vulnerable , more caring , and you see that . But probably the biggest change was in the character of Vera . In the pilot which we're going to talk about in a bit . Vera is pretty much a nothing . There is nothing to this character , don't you think so ?

Brad Shreve 29:04

Do you want my real response ?

Tony Maietta 29:06

Absolutely

Brad Shreve 29:06

.

Brad Shreve 29:10

I feel like Vera was a nothing through the entire series .

Brad Shreve 29:12

No , her only purpose was to throw out one one liners that I felt fell flat almost every time well , the studio audience did not agree with you because I know they did .

Tony Maietta 29:23

I just watched an episode from they were going to talk about and vera's lines almost got applause . Every time it's very funny . Um , well , here . Okay , here's the thing . Howland said that she found the character of Vera as originally written to be clumsy and unintelligent , and she said it made her feel bad . So I think what they did was they made Vera a little more as opposed to stupid , they made her ditzy . But they also made her a little bit like Georgette that she was ditzy but she also had great insight . Great insight . They made her very vulnerable , very kooky , very Gracie Allen-like , and I believe that the later episodes of the show are like that . She's so one-dimensional and they wanted to give her qualities of Gracie Allen , of Edith Bunker , I mean even of Stan Laurel you can kind of see that and her self-confidence in the character grew .

Tony Maietta 30:13

So obviously you don't agree with that assessment , but that's what they were going for when they revamped the , the character of vera well , I'm glad they didn't do the vera that was in the movie , which she needed to be put in a mental hospital because she was so insecure and so depressed she was . She was a . She was a difficult character watch . Yeah , to me this character in the series difficult character to watch . To me , this character in the series is difficult to watch because , as I said , I saw very little depth in her . I would have loved to seen her be more of a Georgette or Edith Bunker and I just saw her as a clown through the entire series . Except for a few episodes , I never saw much beyond that . I remember that distinctly . When I watched the series as a regular , I kept saying I wish they'd do more with Vera .

Tony Maietta 31:00

She communicated that Vera was not . I don't feel like Vera in the TV show was the loser after the first season . I feel like she was . She certainly got more attractive , you know , from that first season . I mean she looked a hell of a lot prettier . Remember there's an episode where Tommy actually falls in love with her . Now , Tommy would have never fallen in love with season one Vera . So I think her attractiveness , her kindness , her love of animals certainly played in the show . Yeah , she was ditzy , but she wasn't dumb . She wasn't the butt of the joke , unless it was Mel , and then she could zing him right back again . So I see what you're saying , but I feel like there's more to mention to Vera . So what we're going to do , the format of this , is we're going to talk about four episodes right , Three episodes in the pilot . We've already talked a little bit about the pilot , but I do have a couple more things I want to say about the pilot . So in case you watch it , you're forewarned it has no resemblance to the rest of the series .

Brad Shreve 32:11

It's like a different show If you want to see Beth Holland as scary as she's ever been wow , yeah , I mean , that is a scary .

Tony Maietta 32:20

How can any actress play that role ? I mean , god bless her . No wonder she was pissed off about it . But I think the thing to remember is it's like you know , these are the people , people helming this show , are the people that helmed I Love Lucy . Okay , they even brought Desi Arnaz in as a guest star for one episode . He made one of his very , very rare guest appearances and I wanted to use it today , but I watched the episode and it's just no good . So I was like , no , I'm not going to do that .

Brad Shreve 32:47

He wasn't the only one . They actually I can't remember off the top of my head because I didn't write them down , but there was a whole slew of big stars that oh my God , more stars walked into Mel's Diner than walked into Lucy's Bank in the Lucy show .

Tony Maietta 33:02

Art Carney Telly Savalas , debbie Reynolds Debbie was there . Florence Henderson . It's just yeah it was like is this Mel's Diner in Phoenix or Mel's Diner in Brentwood ? I mean , I'm not really sure which Mel's .

Brad Shreve 33:18

Diner this is .

Tony Maietta 33:20

This is their branch in Phoenix .

Brad Shreve 33:21

It was along the highway . I guess they all broke down . It was Well , they were on the 10 . They were on the 10 on their way to LA , so they did that .

Tony Maietta 33:28

So the first episode , the pilot , is called Pilot .

Brad Shreve 33:33

Yeah , I thought that was funny it is .

Tony Maietta 33:35

Do you want to give us the stats on the pilot , Brad ?

Brad Shreve 33:37

I only know that it came out August 31st of 1976 . And I do want to say one thing about this I think of this show as a 70s show . That's what I think of it as . This was just as much in the 80s as it was the 70s , which really surprised me when I looked at the dates . But the premiere was August 31st 1976 . And I can't wait to talk about this episode because it was much different , including the horrible opening .

Tony Maietta 34:01

Yeah , it's kind of funny . It straddles the 70s and 80s , just like I did . So , yes , so the pilot was written by Robert Goetschel and directed by Paul Bogart , as I said , and Robert Goetzel wrote the screenplay to Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore . So you kind of get a reason , you kind of get the understanding why maybe this episode is so different than all the other ones , because it wasn't Groucho Marx's son writing this episode . It was the guy who wrote that very , very serious drama . Alice Doesn't Live here here anymore . I can give you the synopses of the pilot in two sentences Alice agrees to go out on the date with a diner patron after he mentions he's an agent . All goes well until she realizes he's actually a hosiery salesman . That's your pilot .

Brad Shreve 34:49

That's the pilot . Yes , that's it .

Tony Maietta 34:52

One thing I liked about the pilot .

Brad Shreve 34:53

That I thought they lost to the rest of the series is Alice's vulnerability . She seemed most blue collar .

Tony Maietta 35:01

Yeah .

Brad Shreve 35:02

Struggling woman in that pilot than she ever was again . She didn't lose it entirely , but I really connected with her . That's the only thing I connected with in that pilot .

Tony Maietta 35:12

Well , it's all those close ups too . I mean all those close-ups that Paul Bogart does . Yeah , yeah .

Brad Shreve 35:17

So I felt like they lost that . That's the one thing I really enjoyed in that pilot . The rest was just pretty sad .

Tony Maietta 35:24

Yeah , it's just not . I mean even the plot is terrible . I mean it's so transparent . She's like she's not interested in this guy who keeps coming in the diner and then he says he's an agent and it's like , doing , doing , doing . And suddenly she's oh yeah , we can go out . I mean it's so problematic and there are stupid , stupid jokes . There's this one old , dirty old man who comes in oh no , keeps wanting to take Alice back into the bathroom offering her candy bars . It's so .

Brad Shreve 35:52

It's mind boggogglingly dumb and I can't believe that cbs went ahead with thank god they did , but I can't believe that cbs said , yeah , let's do some more of these I wanted to get into what marise had to think of these shows later , but I will say , when she went in the bathroom and he went in there and you hear her scream and then the audience laughed , her marise goes . There's nothing funny about that , that was practically rape . I know exactly Exactly . He wasn't made like a funny little old man , he was damn creepy and he looked like a zombie .

Tony Maietta 36:24

It's this horrible late 70s Three's Company humor , you know , yes , which thankfully would be gone by the time Bob Carroll Jr and Madeline Davis took over . I mean , I'm not saying they were Noel Coward , but still a hell of a lot better than this . The only thing I like about this episode is I like the fact that Linda gets to sing because , kind of like Irene Dunn , Linda Lavin's got to sing and she should . She sings it had to Be you . And the opening shot , the shot of Vera and the exploding straws , which was in this pilot and was used in the beginning of every single season .

Brad Shreve 37:01

Yep , yep , I think it's a great shot . I want to go back to Linda Lavin and her vulnerability . I do feel like she was more vulnerable . I felt like she felt more like a struggling character . However , the one thing that did drive me crazy is you alluded to how could any woman be so stupid to believe this guy was really an agent after that , it's just , I'm like I couldn't even buy in . I couldn't buy into it at all . I was like there was no shock at the end .

Tony Maietta 37:28

No , it's , you know there's . There's suspending your disbelief and then there's firing its ass and you're just like what the hell come ? It's , no , it's just . Not all the characters look . Most tv shows take time to find their way . This is true of any tv show . There are very few show tv shows that are that hit right out of the gate and go . Some shows take longer than others . Alice took a while .

Tony Maietta 37:53

It took an entire year and five different producers to find its way , but the characters did eventually change and grow , and one character who really changed was Tommy . He changed into another person Because Alfred Lutter , the kid from the film Alice Doesn't Live here Anymore played Tommy originally and then he got canned , as we said . So this episode features Alfred Lutter and I think they made the right choice . This kid would have been so annoying , so annoying . I mean , phil McKeon is not Laurence Olivier by any stretch of the imagination , but he's a hell of a lot cuter and just a much better fit with Linda Lavin , I think .

Brad Shreve 38:34

Yeah , I was really uncomfortable watching him . I I think he worked in the movie because it was a much , though it was a much different feel . Yeah , and he was younger . Uh , I , I cringed when I watched him in the pilot because it just didn't work yeah , yeah nothing wrong with it , it just didn't click yeah , this , this pilot's weird because it's also a different .

Tony Maietta 38:51

It's kind of a different set . The the diner is called mel and ruby's cafe in this pilot , just like in the film .

Tony Maietta 38:58

Oh , I didn't remember yeah just like in the film , and then by episode two , it's mel's diner . It's difficult to watch , it really is difficult to watch and sit through , but they saw something in it . You know , because night and day , uh , when we go to my neck , we go to our next episode . We're going to jump ahead three years , but is there something else you want to say about this ? I was only you want to say other than see the end of it I did mention how vera looked .

Brad Shreve 39:25

It was scary and sad . Yeah , because this guy that pretended to be an agent , vera , thought she he was interested in her to be a star and she put on this makeup and this hair it . I think it was supposed to be funny , I'm not really sure , but it was . It was sad , it was scary , she was like a psychotic scary yeah , yeah . And the fact that she was so certain , for no reason whatsoever , that she was going to be a star , it just it made no sense it was sad .

Tony Maietta 39:54

It was sad , this show never could have flown but we didn't have to worry about that .

Tony Maietta 39:57

No , because , moving on three years later actually four years later , to January 6th 1980 , our second episode we're going to talk about from season four , episode 12 , 84 in the series , and it's called Good Buddy Flow and can I tell you it was written by Linda Morris and Vic Rossio and directed by Mark I Love Lucy Daniels . So Carol and Davis have been in place securely now for a couple of years and this , to me , is when the show really starts to take off . It's not the only thing . The show didn't just take off , flo took off , but anyway , I love this episode . It's all about Flo and we had to do an episode about Flo Because Flo was I hate to say this , knowing how I feel about Linda Lavin , but Flo really was the show for many years .

Tony Maietta 40:47

And in this episode Flo is dating this big rig trucker named Cy Smiling Cy Davis , and when she finds out that he has a young new female driving partner , she becomes jealous and she asks Alice to teach her how to drive a rig , because Alice's late husband was a truck driver . So along with Vera , they pile into Cy's truck for a driving lesson and of course , mayhem ensues when Flo decides she wants to take it for a spin and she steps on the gas instead of the brake and you can guess what happens the semi plows straight through the front of Mel's diner . It is one of the most brilliant sight gags ever on this show I think on any show the way that semi comes barreling through the front of the diner .

Brad Shreve 41:41

You knew something was going to go wrong , but to actually crash and destroy the whole front of the diner is a lot more than you would expect .

Tony Maietta 41:48

They destroyed the entire front of the diner and Linda Lavin didn't want to do that . Linda Lavin's like uh-uh , I'm not getting my Broadway ass into this rig . No , no , no , no , no . But they convinced her to do it . And you know what ? It's such a great scene . It's such a funny side gag . Such a great scene . It reminds me of Mel and Flo are very Lucy and Ricky at the end of this episode , because Polly Holliday is so Lucy in the way . She's just gotten a mess . Remind me of the episode where Lucy learns to drive and she has the confrontation with Ricky in the end after she destroys the cars . Very Lucy and Ricky . But this is such a fun episode . I got to ask you about the actor who plays a smiling Cy Davis . Woo , woof brad , what was his name was michael mccray and I was like you go florence , jean castleberry , this is not earl or this is not one of her . You know one of her usual guys . This guy was hot .

Brad Shreve 42:46

He was a hot 70s trucker yeah , I was like wow yeah right and I was like , what else have I seen him in ? And I couldn't I don't know if I ever did , but through the whole thing I kept thinking where have I seen him ?

Tony Maietta 42:57

because he is hot . He was . He was very , very handsome guy , so I'm like you go flow , you go flow . This episode features henry marvin caplan playing henry bessemer , who works for the telephone company . In case you don't remember , listener , and he talks about his wife . Yes , he did the frequently mentioned , but only seen once , chloe . And do you know who played Chloe ? And it's very sad because of what just happened .

Brad Shreve 43:25

When I saw that I was like what timing .

Tony Maietta 43:27

I'm so sad , ruth Buzzi yes , yes , she only played her in one episode , but how perfect , how perfect was that .

Brad Shreve 43:33

Oh yes .

Tony Maietta 43:34

This episode is so different from the pilot . I mean it's incredible . This is the Alice I remember and this is the Alice I think people have such affection for . You know , vera is dingy and scattered . She's not pathetic . Alice is warm and sarcastic , but a little bit softer . Mel is Mel , mel's always Mel . He cries in the end when his diner's destroyed . And I said , you know , he and Flo were very Lucy and Ricky . But I got to tell you the main reason why I love this episode is Polly Holiday . I mean I'm watching these episodes again and I forget I had forgotten and I was reminded how fucking funny Polly Holiday is . And it wasn't just kiss my grits , I mean , she was fantastic . I forgot about that . Almost every single line of hers gets applause . I mean she's so good , don't you think so ?

Brad Shreve 44:27

Yeah , I do . I think she was tremendous . Like you just said , I hope to never hear kiss my grits dynamite , and did I do that ever again ?

Tony Maietta 44:35

in my life .

Brad Shreve 44:37

Yeah , she was . She was much more than that and it was funny . I was really surprised that they even had that in the in the uh pilot the kiss my grits .

Tony Maietta 44:46

Yes , well , you know it was originally supposed to be kiss my honeydew , and paulie holliday said that . What does that mean ? I don't know what that means . Not that Kiss my Grits is that much more descriptive , but it's just funnier . It's the sound of grits is just very funny and the way she punches it , especially with that southern accent oh , the way she punches it . And the buildup is always Mel kiss my grits . I mean you know it's coming . You know it's coming . But yeah , how about the ?

Tony Maietta 45:12

The 70s is kind of the era of the catchphrase . You know , when you think about dynamite and all the , you know fonzie and a , isn't that funny how that this seemed to be like this time , you know , and these characters who got , got these catchphrases and then kind of took over the show , you know , yes , and I . I think that that's important to point . I want to talk about now that we're talking about flow is not all actors are perhaps as magnanimous as Ron Howard was when Henry Winkler kind of became the focus of Happy Days . So you're Linda Lavin , think about this . You've been working your butt off in theater your entire life . You get a TV show that you're the title character and then here comes this other character up behind you which , just by nature of the character and by nature of the brilliant actress playing the character , just takes off . And so , yeah , there was tension on the set . They're people , they're human . Who can blame her ?

Brad Shreve 46:14

I mean , really think about it for a yeah , and you asked me what I thought of her and I went on about Kiss my Grits . I thought it really showed her skill in this , because she was funny . She was also terrified , she was also terrified .

Tony Maietta 46:31

Yes , what do you mean ?

Brad Shreve 46:32

After she went through the— oh , yeah , she seemed legitimately upset that she drove through the dining room and she looked legitimately terrified of mel when he started climbing through window to get to her throat . Well it's just it's .

Tony Maietta 46:46

It's a brilliant original characterization . She is nowhere . Polly holiday made it a point not to see the film alice doesn't live here anymore because she wanted to create her own flow and not be influenced by the movie . And boy did she . If you watch alice doesn't live here anymore you'remore you're like , where's Flo ? Yeah , I don't see her . And then you see Diane Ladd , who I love , who we'll talk about , and you're like , oh , it's a totally different character .

Tony Maietta 47:10

Holiday had seen women like Flo working as cashiers at truck stops . She had her own experience as a waitress . She really created this original , funny , hysterical character . That , yeah , unfortunately and look , I wasn't on the set , so I don't know about the tensions , I don't know about the stories , but you know , you have to kind of think . Well , maybe there was a little bit of tension here , because this woman is obviously stealing a show that's not even under her name . So that's one of the reasons why , not long after this episode , flo left Alice and got her own show called Flo , and it debuted that same year . So it's , you know , it's unfortunate but so funny . It's like when Rhoda left Mary Tyler Moore Show , the Mary Tyler Moore Show stayed strong because it had a ground . It had the structure to withstand the departure of one of its most popular characters . So did Alice , and that's when the strength of Linda Lavin really shows .

Tony Maietta 48:12

As the Mary Richards of Mel's Diner . She was the one that held that together and Flo had a really strong debut . It finished its first season at number seven and Holiday actually was nominated for an Emmy . But in its second year they shouldn't have done this . Cbs moved it against this little juggernaut called Little House on the Prairie and in the late 1970s it was pretty hard to buck the Ingalls family . I mean it was not good . So they moved it around again and again and eventually it was canceled and that was the end of Flo . I mean it's so sad this huge rise and this star is truly born and then it's over . But for her part , holiday was very circumspect about it . She continued to do film and TV roles . We said she did Gremlins , she was in Mrs Doubtfire . The only thing she would never do is say kiss my grits . Whenever anybody asked her she refused to do it .

Brad Shreve 49:13

I don't blame her . There's two things I want to say about Polly Holiday . First of all , I was questioning why didn't she go back ? Because not many people remember this . But on the Jeffersons , I was questioning why didn't she go back , because not many people remember this .

Brad Shreve 49:24

But on the Jeffersons , Florence was spun off to her own series .

Brad Shreve 49:25

Yeah , yeah For one , and it was really bad . It had Larry Linville and she went to work at a hotel and when her show got canceled they burned the hotel down and she went back to work at the Jeffersons and everybody was happy again . I wondered why because she was so integral to this series why when Flo was canceled , they didn't have her move back . Now I understand the antagonism why that didn't happen . Plus , maybe she wasn't even interested . I don't know about that .

Tony Maietta 49:52

She probably wasn't . I mean , some people are just like no moving on , you know .

Brad Shreve 49:56

The other thing I want to say is that , because she is so Flo , it's hard to picture her as anything else . And I'm going to tell you a little incident that happened many , many years ago when I started the hotel industry . I was working the front desk with a friend of mine and this very elegant woman walked up very prim and proper . She walked up to check in the hotel and my friend said oh , minnie Pearl , I love you . And the woman responded thank you , I really appreciate it .

Brad Shreve 50:29

For the rest of this weekend .

Brad Shreve 50:30

I'm Sarah Colley she went right back to herself . And that's what I when I watch Polly Holliday . That's who I think of .

Tony Maietta 50:35

Yeah , no , I see it . I can see that . I can see that , yeah , she was an actress . It was a part she played . She it . I can see that . I can see that . Yeah , she was an actress , it was a part she played . She had a great run and she continued to work . I mean , she worked for the rest of her until she retired . So I mean , she did , she did , but she was gone . So what did the writers do ? They turned to Diane Ladd to come and take her place . But here's the problem she couldn't really play Flo . Who could she play ? She was out of her NBC contract by this point , so they had to create a air quotes new character for her . But how do you follow Polly Holliday as Flo ? I don't know how you do that .

Brad Shreve 51:13

Well , it's a good thing they didn't try to do a Darren and have her actually play .

Brad Shreve 51:16

Flo , because that would have felt flat ,

Tony Maietta 51:21

, I mean . But what are you going to do ? So you're going to have to you do like a kind of a Flo character named Belle Dupree . That's kind of like Flo , but not really like Flo , and you know it's just .

Tony Maietta 51:35

I love Diane Ladd , and Diane Ladd was a brilliant actress . I mean three Oscar nominations . She was in Chinatown , for Christ's sake , we talked about her in Chinatown . So I just got the feeling . I get the feeling when I see Diane Ladd as Belle she's kind of slumming a little bit . She's like I'm an Oscar-nominated actress and here I am doing a sitcom and unfortunately it just didn't work . She appeared in a year and a half of the show before she said you know what , this ain't working , this ain't working , this character . She never really , even though she won a Golden Globe as Best Supporting Actress for this part , she felt like there was no substance to this character . She could never really understand what this character was or who this character was , and I think that's how the audience felt too . You know , it's like who's this character character was , and I think that's how the audience felt too . You know , it's like who is this character ? She's kind of Flo , but she's not Flo and it just . It just didn't work .

Brad Shreve 52:26

Yeah , they should have . Didn't even try to copy Flo . Yeah , mash , when Trapper John left and they brought in BJ Honeycutt , they didn't try to make him the same character in any way . No , exactly .

Tony Maietta 52:37

It was a totally different character . They were too close to the original template , I think . So I don't think they should have gone to Diane Ladd . I think Diane Ladd would have been fine if she hadn't done it , but that's what happened . So I did want to talk about an episode really quickly that features Belle but also features another wonderful character from Alice . It's season five , episode eight . It's 104 in the series and it's called Carrie Sings the Blues . It was originally broadcast December 21st 1980 . It was written by Mark Egan and Mark Solomon and directed by Christine Ballard and Linda .

Brad Shreve 53:14

Lavin .

Tony Maietta 53:15

Yes , she did direct two episodes a year after the fourth season , and it features the one and only Martha Ray as Mel's mother , carrie , what happened in this episode , brad , do you remember ?

Brad Shreve 53:30

Mel's mother is coming to visit . She was bringing her new husband to celebrate their anniversary even though it wasn't really a year anniversary to celebrate with Mel , and she shows up alone because her new husband she's very flirtatious and her new husband did not like it .

Tony Maietta 53:50

Wasn't she flirting with a TSA agent ? Is that ?

Brad Shreve 53:53

who it was . I couldn't remember who she ? Was , I couldn't remember who it was . So she's very down and that's why the name of the episode is carrie sings the blues . She even sings and they try to cheer up , and everything is happy in the end , of course .

Tony Maietta 54:09

yeah , yeah I think it's . Yeah , it's fun . You know it's fun to have an episode with martha ray . You know she was originally supposed to do just one episode but the character was such a hit that she came back 11 more times . She she appeared in 12 episodes as Carrie Sharples , mel's mother . She always called Mel chubby and , for people who don't know who Martha Ray was , martha Ray was a wonderful actress and singer band singer . She was in films . She appeared in Charlie Chaplin's notorious film Monsieur Verdue , in which Chaplin it was the first film Chaplin made after he retired the tramp character and he plays a blue beard type character which you know . We really should talk about this film sometime because it's a really wonderful film . Anyway , in this film he marries rich women and then kills them for their money , and Martha Ray plays his rich American wife that he can't kill . She will not die .

Brad Shreve 55:06

It's very funny .

Tony Maietta 55:08

And it's kind of a key to Martha Ray . Martha Ray is this over-the-top zany mugging crazy , crazy character , just like she is in Alice , and it's a really I would love to talk about Mr Verdu sometime because it's a wonderful film , but in this episode that's who she is . I mean , this episode is basically Martha Ray mugging and of course it features a pie throwing , because it's Martha Ray and yeah , that's pretty much it . That's it's . It's just a fun episode . It's a fun episode .

Brad Shreve 55:40

When this series was on , I cringed every time Martha Ray walked in the door .

Tony Maietta 55:44

Did you ?

Brad Shreve 55:44

really yeah .

Tony Maietta 55:45

I can understand that .

Brad Shreve 55:47

There's actors I like and actors I dislike . I hated Martha Ray and everything she was in . You said Muggy .

Tony Maietta 55:53

Yeah .

Brad Shreve 55:53

You know , I remember my mom hating Bob Hope because she's like he's such a ham . And that's what I feel about martha ray . It's like she's , she's like , am I not ? I'm funny right , I'm funny right , and but she is funny , she is . I don't find her funny and I felt like she was a terrible actress , who who just was a ham and thought everything she said was brilliant and I never found her the least bit . That's funny . It's funny . Well , she has that for being a sourpuss .

Tony Maietta 56:19

That's no that's well , that's an opinion , brad . Listen , she certainly is an acquired taste . A little bit of Martha Ray can go a very long way .

Brad Shreve 56:28

Yes .

Tony Maietta 56:28

That's why she wasn't a regular character . She was recurring and she works best in supporting roles . She's very funny in Mr Verdue and , yeah , I can understand that . She's Martha Ray the big mouth . You remember those Paula Dent commercials she used to do ?

Brad Shreve 56:45

Yes , I do , and I always hated those commercials . There's another thing I didn't like about Martha Ray in this role . I didn't feel her connection with Mel was real in any way . They had no chemistry .

Tony Maietta 56:56

Oh , you don't think so . I think they're very sweet together .

Brad Shreve 57:06

I like her and Vic Tay back together . I couldn't picture Mel being raised by this woman and I didn't feel like her . Just making fun of him and calling him chubby did not endear me to her as a mother whether she was a good mother or bad mother she was just a person that walked on the set and said I'm your mother .

Tony Maietta 57:17

Yeah , the episode is not really a Chuckles Bites , the Dust episode it's not like a hallmark of the series . There are cream pies , waterbeds and Martha Ray , and that's all you need to know .

Brad Shreve 57:28

And there are actually funny moments in this episode and I thought the waterbed was very , very funny .

Tony Maietta 57:33

Yeah , that was Because .

Brad Shreve 57:34

I remember those waterbeds . In fact I had that waterbed and it's funny because this is one that Maurice watched and he had that waterbed and it's funny because marie , this is one that marie's watching he had that waterbed , that's , and they , they weren't the kind that stayed firm , they were like a giant ocean .

Tony Maietta 57:47

That was crazy , that was crazy .

Brad Shreve 57:48

Yeah , yeah , that was crazy and the whole cast was on the bed oh yes of course , that's how the episode ends , of course , of course .

Tony Maietta 57:54

So that's hasa la vista . Belle dupree uh , she lasted a year and a half . Her final appearance consisted of one scene in an episode and Belle calls the diner and tells her co-workers she's taking a job in Nashville as a backup singer and she gone . So Diane Ladd out of here .

Brad Shreve 58:11

She's like I'm gonna go make movies and I don't remember the final episode , but it's a lot of flashbacks and my understanding is they did not use any clips with her in it there was not one .

Tony Maietta 58:21

there were ones with Polly Holiday , which was really wonderful , but there were none with Belle . It's like it never happened . It was Bobby Ewing dream . It was never happened because they woke up and there was the wonderful Celia Weston as Jolene .

Brad Shreve 58:40

Jolene Honeycutt .

Tony Maietta 58:42

Our last episode of Alice . We're going to talk about from all the way up in season nine , the last season episode five , number 191 in the series called Tommy's Lost Weekend , and you picked this episode , Brad . Why did you want to do this episode ?

Brad Shreve 58:59

I picked this episode because it's Mother's Day month and I wanted one that focused on Tommy .

Tony Maietta 59:04

Yeah it is and it's . The story was by Arnold Schmidt , the tell play by Bob Bentenson and Howard Bentenson , and it was directed by our old stalwart Mark Daniels . Well , it's an interesting episode . It does focus on Tommy and drinking . It explores teenage drinking and how Tommy's social use of alcohol just may have turned into an addiction . So it was a very serious topic for Alice .

Brad Shreve 59:33

And I chose this episode . I went through different ones that had Tommy and he did really well , but I didn't like necessarily the storyline as well there is actually . I looked through how people the storyline as well there is actually . I look through how people rated the episode . There is another episode that people rated as one of the best Alice episodes that focus on Tommy . I think it's Tommy was dating Mel's niece or something like that and that didn't really interest me .

Brad Shreve 59:56

So because it was really more Tommy and Mel . So I saw this one and I actually really enjoyed this episode . I had a challenge with it , which you may know what it is off the top of your head but it's a very 70s thing . But I really enjoyed this episode . It was both funny and sad . Fortunately they did not make it one of those . It's a very special episode where it was all dark , like they did with .

Brad Shreve 1:00:20

Like the Special Facts of life , episodes about suicide and teenage years , when you feel like you're getting to the end of your rope , tie a knot and hang on girls that was facts of life , sorry it was a good episode , michael J Fox , the one where he has been , and then was also one there was the what was the facts of life spun off of different struggles where . Arnold was almost molested by a man .

Tony Maietta 1:00:51

Yeah , it's not that bad at all . The worst thing about this episode is Tommy's wig .

Brad Shreve 1:00:58

I thought it was pretty good , did you really ? Oh , my God , I kept looking for the creases in his bald thing and I couldn't find them .

Tony Maietta 1:01:06

In the episode , tommy comes into the diner with a big cap on and eventually the cap comes on and he's got a mohawk and the story is that he was passed out and he doesn't remember when he had gotten the mohawk by one of his frat brothers , and apparently Philip McKeon endured four-hour-long process of makeup for this as the artist cemented the wig to his head . Now , I'm sorry , that looks like it was slapped on . I can't believe it took four hours . I thought it was terrible . I was like oh , you could have gotten a better wig for Tommy , come on .

Brad Shreve 1:01:41

Okay , I did not like the wig . It did not look real the way they had the hair yeah but I was impressed with the bald cap .

Tony Maietta 1:01:49

That's what I was saying okay , okay , that looked real , okay I could not see the creases , but the the hair .

Brad Shreve 1:01:54

It was supposed to be funny like they shaved his head and it didn't even look like his hair .

Tony Maietta 1:01:58

I mean , that was bad , yeah , no so anyway , the episode , it's a good episode . It was nominated for an Emmy Award for writing , so it was a good episode . It didn't overplay the alcoholism . I thought Linda Lavin was wonderful in this episode and I also love Celia Weston as Jolene Honeycutt . So Celia Weston joined the series after Diane Ladd left in season five and I think they're like okay , we have to get away from the older , we need to bring someone younger and someone different . They can't be a ghost of Flo . And interestingly , you know , celia Weston appeared in 90 episodes , the exact same number as Polly Holliday Isn't that funny .

Brad Shreve 1:02:36

Oh , really , the exact same number . Yeah , because .

Tony Maietta 1:02:39

I don't think you think of that , but but yeah , she was on the show just as long as polly holiday was . She was just , and they finally found one that stuck . You know , I think was a very smart move of them to get a younger actress and to get a really good actress . Celia weston has proven , since alice is over , I mean , all you gotta do is watch in the bedroom dead man walking . She is a wonderful actress and she really lends this kind of a youthful quality to the show . That really needed it .

Brad Shreve 1:03:09

But she's not threatening , she was also snarky , like Flo had been , but a very different character .

Tony Maietta 1:03:16

Very different character , very different energy , and I think it really complemented the other two actresses really well and nobody felt threatened anymore . You know what I mean . She was popular but she wasn't about to take over the show and she's a really good actress and she knew that this was a great opportunity for her and she did . She went on , she started in theater and after Alice she went on to do some wonderful work . So , yeah , it was a fun episode . I liked everybody in it . I thought it was a moving episode and I'm really glad we got to see . And thank you for picking this one , because I love the fact that , since it's our Mother's Day show , we get to have a real episode which really highlights Alice the mother .

Tony Maietta 1:03:55

And it was , as I said , season number nine , the last season , so there was a final episode . Linda lavin originally wanted to stop after season eight and they convinced her to do one more season . Uh , unfortunately that last season the ratings were kind of in the toilet , but anyway , it was time to move on . Everybody wanted to move on . In the final episode of the series features an exciting new beginning for each of the characters , because Mel sells the diner . You knew this show had to end with Mel selling the diner . Did you watch the last episode , by any chance ?

Brad Shreve 1:04:30

Brad , no , I was going to and I ran out of time . But I do have a question , because I've read the synopsis many times . Did Mel sell the diner first ? Because the way it's all written is Alice decides to go pursue her career , jolene decides to open her own hair salon and Vera announces she's pregnant and then Mel says he's sold the diner .

Tony Maietta 1:04:53

No , it all happens in the same day .

Brad Shreve 1:04:58

Well , no , I get that , Welcome to sitcom . Yes , I know .

Tony Maietta 1:05:01

Mel . The episodes opens with mel announcing that he sold the diner . Okay , that's better . The girls come in with this news jolene is quitting because she wants to open up a beauty parlor . Alice is quitting because she got a job as a singer and wants to move to nashville . The only thing that no one has happened to is Vera , and so when Mel announces that he sold the diner , vera faints and then we cut to a commercial and then we come back and Vera comes back from the doctor and , guess what ? She's pregnant because she got married in the season before . So , yes , so everybody is moving on and Mel sells the diner to a developer who plans to turn into a parking lot . So not only has he sold the diner , it's going to be gone .

Tony Maietta 1:05:46

And this is kind of sweet . As a going away present , mel gives each of the waitresses a check for $5,000 from the money he made from this huge profit for selling the diner . And you know , I have to admit I was watching this and I started to get choked up . He gives them the first . He gives them the little creamer shaped as the cowl , you know , and you're like , oh , it's a sweet going away present . And then they pull , they reach , they look inside and there's a check for $5,000 . And I was . I have to admit I was really moved . I'm such a softie with these sitcoms . I was really moved by it . I started I felt a little teared up . I'm like Alice is over . I'm like , well , it was over 45 years ago .

Brad Shreve 1:06:29

The synopsis that you just gave is one of the reasons I did want to really watch it so we could discuss it . But I didn't want to watch it based on what I read , because it wouldn't have changed that much and would have been such a better written show if Mel announced the diner's closing and they then went to what am I going to do ? Yeah , I can see that Alice comes in an epiphany and says you know what ? I think this is the sign from above that I need to pursue my career . Jolene says you know , I've been wanting to open a salon . Yeah , I guess I'm going . That would have been so much better . Vera could say I want to go get pregnant . Well , vera could have . It could have actually started with fear being pregnant . Yeah , no , and then you know , cause ? Cause , that would have been like oh and I'm , I'm going to get pregnant because that's .

Tony Maietta 1:07:10

That's a little bit more of a what do I do with my life ?

Tony Maietta 1:07:12

I get that , I love that , but you know , sitcom land , the you know , the thing about Alice is like all those celebrities walking in the diner every five minutes , you know , not exactly rooted in the reality , but yes , it's it . It wraps things up . The show was over , so they all had very illustrious careers . After Alice ended , linda Lavin returned to Broadway after the show was over . As I said , she won a Tony Award for Broadway Bound . She replaced Tyne Daly in Gypsy . In 1997 , she founded the Linda Lavin Arts Foundation to support education in the arts because , you know , she made a couple bucks from Alice and she continued to work on stage sitcoms the rest of her life . She came back in the show in 92 . I don't know if you remember this , brad , it's called Room for Two . I love this show . And she starred with Patricia Heaton from Everybody Loves Raymond . They played mother and daughter .

Tony Maietta 1:08:11

And it was a really sweet show but it didn't make it . And then she did a show with Sean Hayes which didn't make it . And then she was doing mid-century modern and well , she didn't make it . But you know , she just continued to rack up Tony nominations and Emmy nominations and cabaret TV film work . So she had a very healthy career when Alice ended . And I think what's amazing to me is there is a legacy to this TV show which we could look at as a silly sitcom . But you just heard when we played Linda in the beginning that people , this is a touch point for many people in their lives . This podcast , co-host included . I measure many of the things in my life by television big surprise , and Alice is one of those things I use as a benchmark . It really is .

Brad Shreve 1:08:59

Let me tell you my feelings on the show show . I'm not going to try and diss it entirely , because it was the 70s and that is the , the framework I you know I knew when we decided to do this . I'm like do I really want to watch alice ? I don't remember it being all that great . And I said no , put yourself into the 70s .

Brad Shreve 1:09:15

So I did , because I did enjoy this show when it aired but , there are things and I'm going to bring up the negatives , because these are the negatives I even felt during the 70s . So these are things that drove me crazy . First of all , the thing is tying everything up in a nice bow . We learned that tommy's drinking a lot . He has horrible incidences from his drinking . He talks to his mom and at the end they decide to go see his counselor . Okay , I'm not saying to was an alcoholic . There is a huge difference between problem drinking and alcohol .

Brad Shreve 1:09:44

If everybody that drank a lot was an alcoholic , everybody would be dead during college .

Tony Maietta 1:09:49

Right , right .

Brad Shreve 1:09:51

There is a huge difference , but the fact that he just okay , you're right , I have a drinking problem , let's go . Yes , I know that was the 70s . I know that's how all those sitcoms were . They rarely carried storylines over , unless it was a very thin storyline , but that drove me crazy . The other thing that drove me crazy is the two Good Buddy , flo and Carrie Sings the Blues . This was also a very 70s sitcom . The things that made Flo jealous and the things that made Carrie's husband jealous were so minuscule , silly , especially Flo , who was sleeping with every man in town , I know . For her to get jealous just because he had a female driver just did not . By the way , she was the most well-manicured .

Tony Maietta 1:10:33

I know I've never seen a truck driver look like that yeah .

Brad Shreve 1:10:35

Yes , cleanest truck driver I've ever seen , but that's neither here nor there . The fact that she was upset just because he had a female truck driver who was standing right there and not acting the least bit jealous when he wanted to be with flow , I didn't buy that at all . Right , polly holiday is really good , but the way they wrote her I drove me crazy she has to work with what she was given .

Brad Shreve 1:10:54

Same thing I felt about carrie I did . Now , granted , when her , her husband walked in and found her in the bed with dave mad which , for those who haven't seen it , it wasn't anything going on . I could see why he was upset because it looked like something was going on , but his whole reasoning ? Just because she was flirtatious ? No , I had a challenge with that too . So those are my challenges . It was so 70s . That's really what it comes down to and I'm glad things changed .

Tony Maietta 1:11:20

It's not just 70s , it's the style of the sitcom . You know , I think these things at least and I'm speaking about myself here these things loom large in my memory , much larger than it's like when you go back to a house you used to live in and you're like , wow , it seems so small , you know , but when you're a kid it seems so big . So when you're a kid and you're watching these shows from the 70s and 80s which seem like these great fun shows , and you watch them , you're like , well , that's really kind of silly , that's really kind of stupid , that's really kind of bad . Now , I don't think that way about Alice , but I know some shows .

Tony Maietta 1:11:59

For instance , I always thought Three's Company was silly and stupid and bad , but anyway . So that's the way I feel about it . You know , in our memory they loom much larger than they really were and that's the way I choose to look at them . Hello , I'm a film historian who lives in the past , so it's that's the way I approach it . I approach it is how this , the memories I have attached to this show . The reality of the show is different than my memory and I prefer my memory .

Brad Shreve 1:12:25

Yes , I agree . There are a lot of shows that I really enjoyed at that time , and I probably wouldn't enjoy them at all today .

Tony Maietta 1:12:31

Different Strokes is one of them .

Brad Shreve 1:12:32

I couldn't imagine watching Different Strokes .

Tony Maietta 1:12:34

No , I can't , but I enjoyed most of it .

Tony Maietta 1:12:36

But I can't imagine watching Alice because , as I said , just for these , performances are wonderful . Polly Holiday is one of the greatest sitcom characters . Flo is one of the greatest sitcom characters I think ever played by this brilliant actress , and I think that's important . I think they were all very gifted individuals , very gifted performers , very gifted actors who had a long run on the show . Most of them , and most importantly , it brought Linda Lavin into the public consciousness and this incredible talent and this incredible heart and this incredible spirit that she was and the world . I miss her . I think we all miss her and I think that's a nice way to wrap up our Mother's Day episode . I think Don't you .

Brad Shreve 1:13:25

Yeah , I agree , and I do want to reiterate that my challenges with Alice . It was so sad to hear about the death of Linda Lavin because I knew she was an incredibly talented woman .

Tony Maietta 1:13:36

She's part of our lives . She's part of our lives . Well , I believe we have one more episode for our Mother's May coming up next week . Brad , is that right ?

Brad Shreve 1:13:48

We do and it's one of my favorite movies that I think gets overlooked too much .

Tony Maietta 1:13:53

And I've been vamping it for the past three weeks and I'll vamp it one more time . I feel like it features the biggest mother of them all . That's all I'm going to say .

Brad Shreve 1:14:03

A very loving mother .

Tony Maietta 1:14:08

Well , brad I guess that was Alice and there's only one thing left to say , but I don't want to say it . So let's not say goodbye , let's say good-bom-bom-bom-bom-bom .

Brad Shreve 1:14:25

No, let's say goodbye .

Tony Maietta 1:14:31

Goodbye everybody .