Tony Maietta: 0:00

So, brad, in the 40s there was a very famous movie tagline for a Bette Davis film and the tagline was nobody is as good as Betty when she's bad. Betty Davis's 1949 film Beyond the Forest which was the movie that ended her career, by the way and it has that very famous line what a dump in it. But I feel like nobody's as good as Betty when she's bad could not be more appropriate for the film we are talking about today.

Brad Shreve: 0:42

You are 100% correct. I like characters occasionally that you know characters are supposed to have gray areas, but occasionally I like a character that just has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Tony Maietta: 0:58

And that is Betty in the Little Foxes. Well, I'm going to give you an argument about no redeeming qualities when we get to that, but yeah, it is truly. In my opinion, it is her greatest performance of her halcyon years. I'm not talking about all about Eve and her later career and whatever happened to baby Jane. I'm talking about her prime Warner Brothers years, which is like 38 to 49. And ironically, she didn't make the Little Foxes for Warner Brothers. She was on Loan Out one of her very, very few loan outs to Samuel Goldwyn. But I feel like it is not only her greatest evil performance but her greatest performance period and that's why I'm really happy and pleased that we're talking about this today. It's going to be a real treat to talk about Betty and to talk about this film, which I think is fabulous.

Brad Shreve: 1:50

And I got to agree with you. I never know where we're going to go with Betty, and boy, she was vile. I just hated her guts in this film, as we were supposed to, and I know she did everything she could to make this person evil, including the makeup, so she did a good job in that sense.

Tony Maietta: 2:10

It's funny because people would say to Betty people would always talk about her villain characters. What's it like to play evil characters all the time? And Betty always pointed out I played just as many heroines she goes. It's the evil that people remember and she's absolutely right.

Tony Maietta: 2:23

If you look through her filmography, she plays just as many heroines. In fact, probably her two greatest villains of the 40s the Letter and the Little Foxes, both, by the way, directed by William Wyler are bookended by her two greatest heroines, by Dark Victory Judith Traherne in Dark Victory and Charlotte Vale in Now Voyager. So she was right, she did play just as many heroines as she played bad girls, but people love the bad girls.

Brad Shreve: 2:51

You hear actors say they like to play the bad guy.

Tony Maietta: 2:55

They're more interesting, and Betty's pointed that out.

Brad Shreve: 2:58

I think of Keanu Reeves, who people say is the nicest actor in Hollywood, though I refuse to believe he's nicer than my celebrity crush, paul Rudd. Yet even though he's this nice guy on John Wick, which he is supposed to be the good guy, but he's still blowing people away right and left.

Tony Maietta: 3:18

Well, they get it all out of their system so they can be nice as real people.

Brad Shreve: 3:21

Exactly but.

Tony Maietta: 3:22

I think we talked a little bit about this when we talked about the heiress, and so they can be nice as real people, exactly, but I think we talked a little bit about this when we talked about the heiress and I said it's very dangerous for an actor to make a judgment on his character, that he's good or bad, because as people, we don't judge ourselves as being good or bad. We're just trying to get through the day. We're just trying to do the best we can to get through the day and get our goals achieved. So when Betty, or when any actor worth his salt approaches a character that other people judge as bad or villainy, that actor is not judging that character. You can't. You are just simply playing a part and you're playing the character's motivations to get their goals achieved Right, because generally speaking, the bad guy doesn't know he's bad.

Tony Maietta: 4:01

Never, no, unless. He's a psychopath and he doesn't even care.

Brad Shreve: 4:05

Yeah, but actually it's funny because just yesterday I heard a discussion about narcissism and they said one of the reasons why narcissism is next to impossible to cure is the narcissism. No matter what you do, you can't make them understand that what they do is wrong where?

Tony Maietta: 4:20

but regina giddens, uh, who is the main character in the Little Foxes played by Betty Davis, is, yes, she is one of the screen's great villainesses, but again, she doesn't consider herself a villainess, she is just trying to do the best she can because she's in a society we're talking about Alabama in the early 1900s. In the early 1900s she is confined in this early 20th century society where only men had power. Men were the only legal heirs. Women were completely dependent upon men and all Regina is trying to do is build a better life for herself and her daughter, which I always think is a valid, which is a point you want to point that out when people say she's totally evil. She's doing a lot of this for her daughter and she wants her daughter to have a better life, which is what makes the end of the Little Foxes so devastating, and we'll get to that. But Regina's just trying to do the best she can and unfortunately she's in a society where women have no power, so she has to take the power by whatever means necessary, which she does.

Brad Shreve: 5:29

And I'm going to tell you right now I have a cheat sheet because I looked at IMDb, I looked at Wikipedia. None of them really helped me, because I had a hard time with this film. There's a lot of characters and you were introduced to all of them at the same time. So I went to chat GPT and I said tell me who these characters are and what their relationship is to each other. So I have, because I couldn't keep the name straight. So I have a little cheat sheet right in front of me. Makes sense, it makes sense.

Brad Shreve: 5:55

Actually it was nice and neat for me, much easier than what were on the other places.

Tony Maietta: 5:59

No, you're right, there are a lot of characters and it's very and when we talk about the story of the Little Foxes, it is incredibly complex and can be a bit convoluted to follow the twists and the turns. Yes, because it's based on a play by Lillian Hellman and the play is incredibly complex. So obviously the film is going to be incredibly complex.

Brad Shreve: 6:21

And before we get into the story itself, I'm going to tell you my journey with this was my first thought as I, as it began, I'm like, wow, this is a beautifully done movie and I hate it, and I'll tell you. When we get into it, I'll tell you I hate it. Then I got so, oh, I really like this. And then at the end I'm like, oh, this was satisfying yes, it is.

Tony Maietta: 6:43

It is beautifully shot, it is phenomenally acted. It is incredibly directed by, as I said, mr William Wyler and starring Miss Betty Davis. But before it became a film, it was a play, and the film the Little Foxes is based on the 1939 play by Lillian Hellman that starred Tallulah Bankhead, which was an enormous success, and Bankhead's performance as Regina became legendary. It ran for 410 performances and Bankhead played every single one of them. That's what you love about these old. You know they never miss a performance. They would go on that stage with 106 fever. She didn't miss a single one of them. Hellman called this play an angry comedy, which I always thought was very interesting. We talk about a lot of films which people think are horror films or very dramatic films, and their creators refer to them as comedies, which is really interesting.

Brad Shreve: 7:50

And the title the Little Foxeses comes from the bible. Did you know that? Did you check that out?

Tony Maietta: 7:53

I did and I'm not poetic enough that I get the references.

Brad Shreve: 7:54

Well, I'll tell you what. My ex was a poet and we. That's one area we didn't connect the title.

Tony Maietta: 7:59

The little foxes comes from the bible and the quote is take us the foxes. The little foxes who spoil the vines, for our vines have tender grapes, um, so that's where the little foxes. So basically, what they're saying is the foxes are villains, the foxes are predators, and that's who these people are the family, regina's family, the hubbards regina's name is Regina Hubbard Giddens. The Hubbards are the foxes, the predators, out to take advantage of everybody and take everything they can. And the title actually is kind of funny. The title the Little Foxes was suggested by Dorothy Parker, who was a friend of Lillian Hellman's and actually contributed to the screenplay when it was eventually made into a film. Do you want to give us I know it's complex and I will help you out when you need it Can you tell us a little bit about what the plot is? What's the Little Foxes about? And don't feel like you've got to get really complicated because we'll talk as we go on.

Brad Shreve: 8:58

Yeah, it's really just a big scheme to make money. It is a Southern family that I'm generalizing here, so if you're sent from the South don't get too upset with me. But having lived a good portion of my life in the South and North Carolina, it's all about appearances, so a lot of times what looks like the woman is not in control when really she is. Very frequently. So. Anyway, it is a scheme to make money by getting a mill put into the town to produce the cotton, and they are working with an investor from the north I think it's from New York.

Tony Maietta: 9:30

Correct Chicago.

Brad Shreve: 9:32

Okay, chicago, you are correct, and he is going to put the factory down there so that they can have the cotton right into the factory.

Tony Maietta: 9:39

Right.

Brad Shreve: 9:40

And so, betty.

Tony Maietta: 9:41

Davis Cheap labor.

Brad Shreve: 9:42

Cheap labor, cheap labor. Yes, I know that, for my dad's company moved to the South for the same reason. It wasn't his company he owned, by the way. Anyway, so, betty Davis and her two brothers her husband is ill, so at the beginning of the movie he is not in the picture. He has heart problems. And so the movie begins. She and her two brothers are putting together a scheme to invest into getting this mill built so that they can basically make millions. Right, right and that's how the story begins.

Tony Maietta: 10:14

That's how it begins. So they each say they will invest a third into this mill to get it going. Well, it's no problem for the brothers. Why? Because they're men, they have their money. But Betty Regina, aka Regina, has to turn to her husband for the money. And her husband is Horace Giddens and yes, you're right, he is not there. He didn't win. The play starts. Horace is out of town. Horace is poorly. He's feeling poorly. They don't really, we don't really know why Horace is ill, but he has a very, very bad heart condition. They've been out of each other's lives for quite a while. So Regina and Horace is very highly principled. He third so that they could invest in this mill. And she sends her daughter, who is Alexandra Giddens and she's played by the wonderful Teresa Wright, to go and fetch the father and bring him back. And that's the way the play and the film start.

Tony Maietta: 11:24

And what's interesting about this and we'll go more into the plot as it goes on but what's really interesting about the Little Fox is, as I said, tallulah Bankhead played every single performance. Tallulah Bankhead, for a Broadway actress, was so closely identified with the part of Regina Giddens that she was actually on the cover of Time magazine. She not only played every performance, she toured with it. So you'd think, wow, here's a woman who's not only brilliant in this role but is so closely identified with it. She's on the cover of Time Magazine. Don't you think they'd cast her in the film?

Brad Shreve: 11:59

But I think you're going to tell me Betty Davis had something to do with this.

Tony Maietta: 12:02

Well, yes and no, we know how Hollywood works. Unfortunately, Tallulah Bankhead, who had made films in the early 30s.

Tony Maietta: 12:10

so she was not a stranger to films. She made films in the 20s and 30s. She had not made a film in 10 years and she just wasn't a big enough box office name. And when Sam Goldwyn bought the Little Foxes from Lillian Hellman he brought back almost all of the original Broadway cast except for Regina Giddens, because he wanted to reunite William Wyler with Betty Davis. William Wyler and Betty Davis had done Jezebel together. Betty won her first Oscar or second Oscar, the Letter, the year before another brilliant performance and he wanted to bring them back again because he thought it was a perfect pair. And actually, in all objectivity, betty Davis is perfect for the role of Regina Giddens. However, she is kind of stealing food out of the mouth of Tallulah Bankhead. So you know that's nothing new.

Tony Maietta: 13:05

These two went back and forth for years. You know Betty Davis and Tallulah Bankhead were constantly. Betty Davis was constantly taking Tallulah Bankhead's roles and doing them on film. She did it with Dark Victory. She kind of did it with Jezebel. Miriam Hopkins was on Broadway and Jezebel, but Bankhead played her. She did it with Jezebel. Miriam Hopkins was on Broadway and Jezebel, but Bankhead played her. She did it with Little Foxes In a couple years down the road here. She's going to do a pretty good Bankhead impression in All About Eve, so these two were always at each other. But the point is that, yes, it's a shame that Tallulah was not able to recreate her Broadway role, but it's not like they went out there and cast somebody totally inappropriate. Betty Davis was kind of born to play this role, don't you?

Brad Shreve: 13:49

think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say. I'm looking at a picture of Tallulah Bankhead right now from 1939, and from an appearance standpoint she is much more of a close to Teresa Wright being the daughter. Well, yeah, she is a more beautiful woman, even though she has a very stern look, because it's from the play that I'm looking at. But no, bette Davis was awesome in this.

Tony Maietta: 14:11

She was just awesome, she's yes, and Bette was very hesitant to do this. Okay, she said to Sam Goldwyn and I would love to, I could do a whole podcast about Sam Goldwyn because he's a wonderful Hollywood guy. He's just one of those mythic hollywood moguls. He was a true, true, true independent. Okay, no, maybe we'll do a sam goldwyn month. We oh there, you. That's a great idea, so I'm not going to go into it.

Tony Maietta: 14:35

Sam goldwyn, originally originally called schmule goldfish, born in warsaw, like all these moguls, they were born with like this, this crazy, they were born within I don't know how many miles of each. Like all these moguls they were born with like this, this crazy, they were born within I don't know how many miles of each other. All these moguls Louis B, mayer and Zucor and Goldman Goldman all born together and all ended up in Hollywood as the moguls. Anyway, uh, goldman was a true pioneer though Goldman was, and his partners were responsible for the first full length feature film shot in Hollywood in 1914 called the Squaw man. So when I say pioneer, he was a pioneer, but he was also truly independent because he kept getting screwed over by his partners. So he went totally independent in the early 30s.

Tony Maietta: 15:15

And what was great about Goldwyn was. I don't know how much you know about Goldwyn, but he was a real character in the fact that he was known for his malapropisms. They were called Goldwynisms. He would say things like an oral agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on, or another one that he said that was very funny was when people would all try to get together he'd go include me out. So he was for a guy who had not a great command of the English language. He was very. He had good taste and one of the things he did he paid top dollar for literary properties from the beginning of his career and he was funding these all himself.

Tony Maietta: 15:54

Okay, he went to the Bank of America, took out a loan, mortgaged his house, made a movie, hoped the movie made a profit so he could pay the bank and then went on to the next one. I mean, this is how this guy works, so a true independent. So when he purchased the little foxes, he needed a box office star. He needed star insurance and there was nobody bigger in 1941 than Betty Davis. She was the biggest female box office star in the world.

Tony Maietta: 16:20

So what happened was that Goldwyn wrangled with Warner Brothers to get her services to have Warner Brothers loan and I think I believe he traded. He did have a Gary Cooper owed Goldwyn a film, so he traded Gary Cooper for Betty Davis. He also paid Warner Brothers $300,000 for Betty Davis. Now Betty Davis didn't get $300,000. She got her regular salary. This is one of the shitty things about the studio system was a studio would loan you out and make $300,000 off of you, but you'd still make your weekly salary. But Betty worked it out so she got a percentage of that $300,000 because she was Betty.

Brad Shreve: 16:58

Davis.

Tony Maietta: 16:59

Anyway, they obtained the services of Betty Davis, as I said. She said please let Tallulah play this. Tallulah should play this. I don't want to do this. She claimed she begged Golden, which I kind of doubt. She begged him. That doesn't sound like Betty, but she was smart. She knew that she could come off badly here by taking this part away from Bankhead, after she already took away Dark Victory from Bankhead. But golden refused and he said look, betty, if you're not going to play at someone else's and not bankhead. So betty was like all right, then I might as well do it. And she also had the consolation of her favorite director, william weiler, to guide her through this film.

Brad Shreve: 17:38

And Wyler did a great job. Everybody did a great job.

Tony Maietta: 17:42

So what happened was that Betty, against her wishes, went and saw Tallulah play this role, play the Little Foxes. Later in her life Betty claimed that the only way to play it was the way Tallulah played it, which is how she played it and everything else I've read and everything else that Wyler has said is exactly not true. Tallulah played the part of Regina. She's a Southern charmer. You get a lot more flies with honey than you do with vinegar and I imagine the way Tallulah played it was very sensual, very syrupy, very sweet, you know, on the surface, and then she's a viper underneath and Betty doesn't play it that way at all. Betty's very harsh, betty's very cold, betty's very, I guess, if you think about it, like the difference between syrup, sweet syrup and hard candy. So Tallulah is the sweet syrup, just oozing charm and sensuality, and Betty is tough as ice cracked hard candy.

Brad Shreve: 18:48

And you know, now that you mentioned that the whole time I'm watching Betty in this film, her character was unlikable from the very first second and it's like nobody would want to sit with this woman and she was controlling the environment and just always had this very sour look on her face and I do believe it would have been a little more realistic. The best con artists are the ones that are lovable and adoring. Yeah, so I mean, she's not really a con artist, but she certainly has to get by it. She's a schemer, she's a, she's a conniver. So it would have been probably a little more realistic if she was more likable, but it it's still. Her performance was so I'm not going to say it ruined the film at all.

Tony Maietta: 19:22

Yeah, I want to talk more about her performance later on, but I just want to talk about the rest of this cast. So, as I said, goldwyn spared no expense when he would make these films. He had done Doddsworth, he'd done Aerosmith, he'd done Wuthering Heights. He was known for his great literary adaptions. Later on he would do Guys and Dolls. He would do the Best Years of Our Lives.

Tony Maietta: 19:44

So, alongside Davis and Wyler, which were pretty pricey talents, greg Toland cinematography. Now, for those of you who don't know who Greg Toland is, greg Toland was a pioneer of deep focus photography, which basically means the foreground and the middle ground and the background are all in sharp focus. You can see everything and there are scenes in the little foxes which I want to talk about later, where that is so clearly evident. It's a brilliant use of deep focus. Um, for the costumes, ori kelly we talked about ori kelly, mythic costume designer. He did the costumes.

Tony Maietta: 20:24

Lillian Hellman wrote her screenplay, wrote her version of the screenplay with help from Dorothy Parker and Alan Campbell. So that ain't too shabby To have Dorothy Parker work on your screenplay with you. The music was by Meredith the Music man, wilson. Obviously this was before the Music man, but Meredith Wilson did the music and five members of the original Broadway cast repeated their roles Patricia Collins, who played Bertie, dan Durea, who plays Leo, the sniveling little simp Leo, who I love. Charles Dingle plays Ben, one of her brothers. Carl Benton Reed plays her other brother. Oscar dingle plays ben, one of her brothers. Carl benton reed plays her other brother, oscar. And john marriott is cowell the servant. Did you say herbert marshall? I didn't get to him yet. Okay, sorry was he in the play.

Tony Maietta: 21:11

He was not in the play, okay, no. In. In addition to the original cast members theresa wright, who was making her film debut, plays alexandra giddens, their daughter, betty davis's uh, regina giddens daughter zan.

Brad Shreve: 21:21

Uh, she Davis' daughter.

Tony Maietta: 21:22

Regina Giddens' daughter Zan. She got an Oscar nomination for this. She later went on to win an Oscar for the following year for Mrs Miniver and she was also in the Best Years of Our Lives. Shadow of a Doubt, pride of the Eye. She had a great career in the 40s. Teresa Wright she's wonderful. The yummy Richard Carlson who plays David, who's just so handsome. I'm always thrown off by how handsome Richard Carlson is. I'm like what happened to this guy? Why didn't he become William Holden? Why didn't he be? Why? What was it? I mean, he's every bit as good looking as William Holden was. I don't understand what happened. And apparently he left Hollywood not long after this film for World War II and he came back and he had difficulty reestablishing himself as a leading man. So he did a lot of supporting roles and then went on TV. But he's just beautiful. He plays Zan's love interest. He's the one guy who speaks truth to power. He does not like the Hubbards and he lets them know about it.

Tony Maietta: 22:27

And finally yes and finally we have the wonderful Herbert Marshall who plays Horace no-transcript movie. So you're you can be forgiven for not noticing that, but there's a very interesting story about that which we'll get to when we talk about the death scene. But what's fascinating about herbert marshall is is he managed to not hide it because people knew it, but I don't think audiences did, because he played against. He wasn't always in a wheelchair, he wasn't in a wheelchair in the letter. He played against these top actresses throughout the 30s and was really a really big star and, as I said, he worked with Bette Davis a couple times High in demand. But he managed to hide the fact that he had a prosthetic leg for most of his career.

Brad Shreve: 23:45

And that's pretty amazing, considering that was a time period when, if you had a handicap of any kind, you pretty much were cast aside. Yeah, you look at Roosevelt.

Tony Maietta: 23:54

Well, he wasn't. He wasn't exactly cast aside.

Brad Shreve: 23:56

No, no, he did. I mean, he did yeah.

Tony Maietta: 24:06

He didn't. Yeah, we talked a little bit about that, about the statue. So, anyway, these people came together to make this incredible film under the direction of one of my favorite, one of my very favorite directors, william Wyler. We talked about him when we talked about the Heiress and, um, I want to talk about the relationship between betty davis and william weiler, because I truly believe it's what makes this film so great is the fact that these two, when they work together, just brought out the best in each other you want to talk a little bit more about. So what happens is is that she brings horace back to alabama to get the money to invest in the mill and he refuses. So she's like I knew this was going to happen. What am I going to do now? So the brothers aren't sure what to do either, because if they don't get her third, then no one's going to be able to invest.

Tony Maietta: 24:58

And then the little simp, leo, who is Oscar's son, Regina's nephew, played by the wonderful Dandaria, who has this great mop of blonde hair which he's always flipping back. He's just such a little namby-pamby simp. I love Leo. He works in Horace's bank in town and he mentions that Horace has all of these bonds in his safe deposit box and he never checks it. He says, maybe twice a year he comes in and can you imagine having all that money and never checking it? I mean, I sound a little bit like Ron Carey there, but, boss, that gives the brothers an idea.

Tony Maietta: 25:38

You know what would happen, suppose, if somebody borrowed those bonds? Do you think you'd ever find out about it? And Leo goes, he never check. And so they trick Leo. They didn't really trick him, but they bully him into stealing the bonds from Horace's safe deposit box and then they can therefore invest in the mill without Regina, in the mill without regina, and of course nobody knows about this. And regina can't figure out how it was. They were able to invest it without her. So she's her, she, her suspicions are up right away. But it happens. And then what happens after that?

Brad Shreve: 26:17

brad, first of all, it was odd to me because I'm like herbert marshall had second billing and he is not in this film. Where is this man? But when he shows up halfway through he obviously has a very significant role, and I can't remember why. But he wants to go to the bank to look at his bonds, which he never looked at before he needs to go get his some insurance papers oh out of the safe deposit, it's not about the bonds, that's.

Tony Maietta: 26:42

He has to look in the box. He almost leaves. He has to look in the box, yep, and he leaves without noticing them. And then, for some reason, because Leo was acting strangely, very, you know, because he just can't, he's like freaking out because Horace is in the bank, because he's not supposed to come, he never comes in and looks at him. Um, he's freaking out, which makes horace suspicious that leo's freaking out. So he goes back and he looks and notices the bonds are gone you only had like fifteen thousand dollars, I think worth yeah, and he puts one and two together and he realizes what's happened.

Tony Maietta: 27:16

so he goes back to the house and he tells regina that they, leo and her brothers, stole their bonds. Well, regina's all ready to persecute them, you know, or to blackmail them into giving them the share. And not only does horace say no, we're not going to invest in this mill, she, he, says we are not going to prosecute them. You are going to say you lent them the bonds. So she's getting screwed twice by Horace. So what happens later? Then? It's a little justified for this because she's getting thwarted twice now by her husband and you're just like why are you punishing this woman? But when you see the relationship it's clear she's a cold hearted bitch. She's a cold hearted bitch, she wants to be in that mill. So what happens when he refuses to prosecute the brothers, oscar and Ben?

Brad Shreve: 28:21

Oh, he starts to have a heart attack and she is just sitting there, just sitting there waiting for him to die.

Tony Maietta: 28:28

He is yes, he has a heart attack because we've already established he has a very weak heart and he has this medicine he always takes and in scenes prior when he would need his medicine, she'd run and get it for him.

Tony Maietta: 28:41

You know this wasn't her plan, but she's now defeated and what happens is is that and we'll talk about this a little bit more with soft focus and deep focus is that he, they're having a battle and that in this scene this is one of the deep focus scenes and this is why, when you want an example of a scene that's shot in deep focus, in the foreground, herbert Marshall all you see his face and Betty Davis is behind him, in sharp focus, and she's just going off telling him that he was a small town clerk when she met him. He's still a small town clerk, he hasn't done anything with his life. And she says you know, even though they're pretty well off, she said you know, that's when I began to hate you, when I realized you weren't going to take me out of here. I'm paraphrasing and finally, the coup de grace is I didn't even. I got to the point where I hated when you touched me, or something like that.

Brad Shreve: 29:32

But she also. He mentioned that how much he loved her. At one time I think she said I love you, but I and I don't remember the actual wording, but something of the nature of I don't have any respect for you, she said.

Tony Maietta: 29:48

She said I thought you were going to bring me the moon. You were, and again you were small town clerk. Then you haven't changed. And so she keeps giving these daggers to him. But the real dagger is I hated. I got to the point where I hated, where you even touched me. And when she says that she's very sharply in the back but she's her's to the camera, he's in the front and that's when he has his first attack. So what's important? She's saying these things, but he's in the foreground, really sharp, and he has the attack. And then the camera moves and she goes and sits down on the sofa and he goes to reach for his medicine and he spills it. And she looks at him and they look at at each other and she realizes he needs his medicine, but he's just spilled it. He has more medicine upstairs in his bedroom. Go get it. And she does not move, she just looks at him. And then he looks at her and you realize, oh, she's going to let him die.

Brad Shreve: 30:41

So, evil.

Tony Maietta: 30:42

And so he struggles to get up and he goes behind her, he staggers behind her on the sofa and he goes around and he goes out of camera range. And now this is just a regular uh shot. This is not deep focus, because he starts to climb up the stairs and she is just sitting there, she is not moving her head, she is not blinking, her mouth is tight because she's listening. She's listening for the collapse and he's going up the staircase a William Wyler staircase and as he goes up the staircase he collapses. And that's when she gets up and yells for help because she knows he's just had his heart attack. He's still barely alive, but she knows that he's going to die. There is in any kind of William Wellman battlefield when you're working with William Weiler, and that's a perfect example. This woman has just committed murder by not lifting a finger.

Brad Shreve: 31:49

Yeah, you know, I really liked it when he showed up into town and she didn't act like she hated him, she just acted like she didn't care for him. There was no love. I mean, he showed up, she had his room ready. You know, as it was common at the time they had separate bedrooms. She's like make up the bedroom and he shows up and she hasn't seen him in ages because he'd been in baltimore, and she just kind of walks over and gives him a quick peck and right, hello, hello, welcome back home. But here is where you saw the contempt right because he's just gone too far.

Tony Maietta: 32:18

He's now like I said. He's he's screwed her over twice now and this is what this. Now she sees her way out. So when he dies, of course it's up to her. Now what's she going to do if he dies? And she even says that to her brothers. She says after he's upstairs and he's not, he hasn't got long to live. And she says the brothers come because they're all concerned about him. And she says you know, if horace lives, then I will continue to say that you lent me the bonds.

Tony Maietta: 32:44

But the doctor doesn't think Horace is going to live, and so not only does she demand a third, she wants even more. And it's just so amazing because they look at her like what have we been dealing with here? I'm like you should know what your sister's like. You've been dealing with her your entire life. And she said you should know me well enough to know that I don't ask for anything I don't expect I'll be able to get. And that's it exactly. So she is primed, she is like a cobra. And so when that scene happens, I just want to mention one of the great reasons that scene, the death scene on the staircase, is so amazing is because it is in regular focus, so the background is out of focus when he's climbing the stairs, because that's not what's important.

Tony Maietta: 33:26

What's important is betty davis's face what's important is watching her not move a muscle. I think ellen burston said that, talking about that scene. She said you know she holds. She holds her mouth so tight because she doesn't want any of the milk of human kindness to seep out of it, and it's so true. And then he collapses. So that's number one why it's important, because all that really matters is her face. The second thing the reason that shot is not in deep focus and is blurred in the back is because it's not Herbert Marshall walking up the stairs. Herbert Marshall had a prosthetic leg. Oh, that's right. He couldn't do that, so they had to get a stand in to do it. So it makes perfect sense. It works artistically for the scene. That's what's so genius about Wyler it works artistically, it's brilliant, and it's also practically brilliant. So there was an artistic reason and a practical reason for it.

Brad Shreve: 34:19

Yeah, her face was the most important thing at that moment and a practical reason for it.

Tony Maietta: 34:22

Yeah, her face was the most important thing at that moment. Yes, yes, and you talked a little bit about her makeup in this, and this was so when talking about Betty Davis and William Wyler I don't, we could do a whole podcast on those two. She loved Wyler. She considered Wyler the greatest director of all time. He led her to her second Oscar for Jezebel because Wyler was as much a perfectionist as she was. She loved the fact. You know she wanted to do more takes than he did. We said he was 40 take Willie. You know she could have been 50 take Davis. She was that much perfectionist and he met her toe to toe because he could control her. And she talks about when they were first working on Jezebel how he would yell at her. If you know, you move your head anymore and I'm going to throw a chain around your neck and she loved it. She like ate it up. So she loved this man. They actually had a love affair. They almost got married. That ended.

Tony Maietta: 35:17

Jezebel was a huge hit. Then they did the letter together and they got along very well on the letter to another great Davis villainous performance. They argued over the take of one line at the end of the letter. She did it his way, but she never let him forget it that she did it his way and if she could, she said she would have gone back and redone it in a minute. But on Little Foxes they came to heads, and that's what's really sad, because he didn't understand why she was playing it this way. He said you've got to be sensual, you've got to have some charm. This woman has a great charm. That's how she gets what she wants. And she said no, no, no, no. This woman is hard, this woman is cold. This woman is tight.

Tony Maietta: 35:58

She came to the set with that white makeup, that kabuki makeup, and a very small mouth that barely opened. Her hair was piled high on her head. She looks like a mask. She looks like, yeah, she's almost like performance art, don't you think? Yes, yeah. And so they fought continually, and that's what's so sad about this. They fought, battled and battled and battled on the set. Betty Davis actually, for one of the only times in her career, walked off a set. She was so upset and so angry Just once. And then she came back and she did it, but she did it her way. The sad thing is that these two people who truly brought out the best in each other, never worked together again. They remained friends and they respected each other greatly, but it was really to Bette Davis's detriment, because I also think it was Alan Burson who said after that Bette Davis rarely showed so much by doing so little, because what Wyler did was rein her in to her simplest, and that's why it's an astounding performance.

Brad Shreve: 37:01

I really lean more towards Wyler. My favorite character in this film is Herbert Marshall as Horace, because he was the most likable person. He's the only one that I felt really the boyfriend. What's his name again? David David yes. He was a good guy too, but Horace was a much bigger character. I liked him a lot. He had scruples, he had morals.

Tony Maietta: 37:22

Yes, he does Well. Yeah, he's the moral core of the movie.

Brad Shreve: 37:24

But my really favorite character, as far as being complex, was her brother Ben, who was played by Charles Dingle.

Tony Maietta: 37:31

Yes.

Brad Shreve: 37:34

Ben was my most lovable character. In the beginning. He was annoying her, but he was talking about. The people that didn't survive after the war were those that thought they were aristocrats, and the ones that knew that they had to adapt and change were the ones that survived and that's why their family was successful. I'm like boy. This guy's real. I like this guy, only to find out later that he was just as unscrupulous as a sister.

Tony Maietta: 37:53

He's probably the most unscrupulous yes, of all of them, yes, but he was a likable guy and so that's what I like.

Brad Shreve: 37:59

That's why I liked him. He was was more complex. He had charm. I think she would have been. Yes, he was charming and he was fun to be around. So I kind of feel like his character was more realistic. That's not to pull away from what Betty did, because she did a great job, but if I look at the story realistically, I think that character would have been more successful if she acted more like her brother.

Tony Maietta: 38:19

Right. Well, the great thing about Charles Ding dingle about ben is he has a great deal of humor, yeah, and charm, and that's yeah, that's what weiler wanted out of davis. But davis davis said no, this woman, this woman is, is ruthless. This woman is cold. She does get, I'm sorry, but she does give regina little touches of humor. You know, there's that moment where Alexandra's playing the piano with Aunt Bertie and I think it's Oscar is making noises, and she looks over at him and she kicks him, yes, with her foot, she kicks his foot with her foot and then she realizes everyone saw her and she laughs.

Brad Shreve: 38:54

Yes.

Tony Maietta: 38:56

I mean, there are moments of laughter and moments of charm and moments of lightness, but it's not nearly as much as Wyler wanted. Yeah, the reason she wore that mask was because she wanted to hide any unintentional human emotion. She really saw this woman as that hard candy. You know, she did that. Well, she did, she did, and that's why I feel like I feel this is her greatest performance, her greatest villainous performance. But some of these other performances, what did you think of Birdie? Of Patricia Collins? She broke my heart.

Brad Shreve: 39:31

Patricia played it so well, but I, oh my God, I ached for Birdie. I just so wanted to give her a hug.

Tony Maietta: 39:38

Birdie is Regina's sister-in-law. She's Oscar's wife and it's explained in the play that she comes from a wealthy family. She's always talking. She's a little bit like Blanche Dubois she always talks about her old life at her old plantation of the way oscar marries her.

Tony Maietta: 40:05

For the money to, to get her family money, because the hubbards come from nothing and they're slowly, they're pulling their way up. Uh, he, and then he mistreats her horribly and she begins to drink. She's an alcoholic, so she's kind of she's in a haze most of the time and she has very, very sad, very pathetic scenes. Leo is their son and she confesses at one point that she doesn't like leo because it's not a horrible thing to say.

Tony Maietta: 40:24

I don't like my own son, but it's heartbreaking and it's touching. And leo's such a moron you understand why he's just such a simp he's.

Brad Shreve: 40:32

He's the puppet of these people and they're just playing him it's also obvious that birdie had very little input in how he was being raised anyway. I mean, oscar was so controlling.

Tony Maietta: 40:41

Yes, exactly, exactly. So what happens is that Teresa Wright's character, zan, the daughter who's very close to her father and who was devastated by her father being sick after Horace, does indeed die. Alexandra, who's been talking to David, kind of been like flirting with David and kind of being courted by David, the luscious Richard Carlson and he says to her you know, you start paying attention, start using your head as to what's going on. He's trying to educate her and she's getting smarter and she starts asking questions, and one of the questions she asked her mother is why was daddy lying on the stairs?

Tony Maietta: 41:21

And it just stuns Regina and she moves on, she brushes it off, she brushes it off. And then Oscar, I'm sorry. And then Ben says at the end, when he realizes he's been beaten and Regina is going to get what she wants, he goes. You know, someday it'll be my turn, another day will be my turn. I asked myself, like what Zan said, why was a man with a heart condition climbing a staircase, a heart condition climbing a staircase? He goes. Maybe someday I'll figure it out. And they all laugh about it. But you know it's not over. It's not over.

Tony Maietta: 41:53

But Alexandra is finally wising up to who her mother really is. And so what's devastating now is that Regina has done all of this allegedly for her daughter well, for herself too, obviously, but to better her daughter's life. And what ends up happening is the exact opposite. Alexander realizes what's happened. She doesn't know exactly. She doesn't know that her mother let her father die, but she knows something happened because she saw her mother say to her father at one point during their fights I'm waiting for you to die, which is a stunning moment. So she realizes something's going on here. So she ends up at the end when Alexandra says why don't you come up? Or when Betty Davis says to Teresa Wright because Horace has just died up in the bedroom and they don't sleep in the same bedroom. But she says why don't you come and spend the night in my room tonight, zan, we have a nice talk, we haven't had a talk in a long time. And Alexandra looks at him and goes why, Mama, are you afraid?

Tony Maietta: 42:57

And the look between them, because now she knows and she leaves. She leaves at the end. So Betty Davis has done all of this at the end end, only to be completely abandoned by the one person that if she cared for anybody, she cared for her daughter and that's the end of it yeah, I want to go through my feelings throughout this movie, but I will say the end.

Brad Shreve: 43:20

I was initially disappointed but actually ended up being better than what I thought and I'll tell you later why. I was disappointed because I thought it was going to be almost kind of like a heist movie Not really, but that's for lack of a better term. But this was a very moral ending because Betty Davis the quote and I know it's from the Bible for what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?

Brad Shreve: 43:45

She wins everything she wants in the end, but she loses everything Exactly, yes. Yes, she loses everything Exactly, yes. Yes, that's very true. She's empty inside. She got what she wanted and she's empty, careful, what you wish for.

Tony Maietta: 43:55

Yep, you know, yeah, she wins and she loses everything.

Brad Shreve: 44:01

Because I had been looking forward through the whole movie for in the end there to be this twist and she ended up with nothing. So that didn't happen. I was initially like damn. And then I'm like no. Look at her, and just her looking out the window at her daughter.

Tony Maietta: 44:13

Yeah, her daughter leaves with David. They run off in the rain.

Brad Shreve: 44:16

This is more satisfying, yeah.

Tony Maietta: 44:17

They run off in the rain and she watches them go away and she slowly steps back and the curtain goes across her face and like a ghost. Yeah, such a brilliant shot. Greg toland, wow that photography. The photography is is stunning. Greg toland, um pioneered that style of photography with orson welles in citizen kane and, uh god, what an incredible, incredible ending incredible film. So, uh, let's talk a little bit about how this movie performed. Yes, there was a great controversy about the fact that Betty was playing a part that Tallulah Bank had made famous. However, that's what happened and the movie was a hit. Do you have stats on the movie, brad? I have some. Yes, okay.

Brad Shreve: 45:00

Well, as you said, the movie came out in 1941, produced by Samuel Goldwyn. It was an RKO Pictures movie. It was nominated for nine Academy Awards. It won none, but one of those, as you were talking about the cinematography, which was great for this film because the set design was amazing, the outfits, costumes were amazing, and it was nominated for those. Yeah, but unfortunately it did not win. It also was nominated for Best Picture, best Director, best Actress, best was she? Best Supporting Actress?

Tony Maietta: 45:30

Yes, Teresa Wright was Best Supporting Actress.

Brad Shreve: 45:32

Yeah, best Supporting Actress Rotten Tomatoes. The critics gave it 100%, which is very rare. The audience score is 87%. Now the box office numbers. I'm going to give these and you're going to have to tell me if I'm wrong, because it was really hard to find numbers on this. So I'm wrong, because it was really hard to find numbers on this. So I'm kind of having to go a little off of what I found on Wikipedia, which I usually try to find backup on. What I had is that this movie made, or the box office take, was 2.1 million worldwide, but it lost 140,000 because of the way the rights were set up and the way the money was distributed.

Brad Shreve: 46:06

I'm sure, I'm sure. So it wasn't a flop in the sense that it wasn't a big film. It was a flop in the sense that the finances weren't handled well.

Tony Maietta: 46:14

Yes, yes, well, it's another success Destime. You know what I mean. It's one of those films which was certainly a financial, certainly an artistic success. I mean again, nine Oscars, nominations and, yes, no wins. And it actually the little foxes held the record for the most nominations with no wins until 1977, with the turning point, and the turning point got 11 nominations and no wins. So that's not really a record you want to hold, um, but here's the way. Here's what I feel about it.

Tony Maietta: 46:45

I feel feel that forget about All About Eve, forget about whatever happened to Baby Jane. This really should have been Betty Davis's third Oscar. It was her fourth consecutive Oscar nomination. She went on to get six more. She had 10 by the time she came to Baby Jane. Never won another one. And so you're like well, why didn't she win? I look at that and I look at her competition that year. And it was not the strongest year, Okay, but it was a very interesting year. This was the year that Joan Fontaine beat her sister, olivia de Havilland, for best actress. So for that reason alone, it's the only time siblings have ever been nominated against each other so far. And for that reason alone, I mean talk about a feud, talk about the de Havilland sisters feud is fun to talk about. So it was. Greer Garson was also nominated Betty Joan Fontaine Olivia de Havilland, and did I say Greer G arson?

Tony Maietta: 47:52

I don't remember I was anyway anyway, joan fontaine won for a very I mean, come on a very weak performance. She's not, she's never been, a great actress. She's not a great actress, she won for suspicion. What's interesting about that is it's the only time the Hitchcock actress actually won Anybody won an Oscar for being in a Hitchcock film. So you have to think so why didn't Betty win against this kind of weak competition she had that year? Well, there's the Tallulah Bankhead controversy, because some people were still holding the belief that Tallulah Bankhead should have won. But here's something even more interesting In 1941, in January of this year, betty was nominated.

Tony Maietta: 48:33

Not nominated, betty was elected president of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences the very first woman to be elected president and, of course, being Betty Davis, she went in with her guns blazing. She wanted to make all these changes and she wanted to take the award ceremony out of the fancy banquet because it was wartime. She thought it would be better if it was in a theater, in more sedate. She wanted to do all these changes and the Academy's like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're just a figurehead.

Tony Maietta: 49:04

You're not going to make all these changes and, being Betty Davis, of course she got pissed off and she resigned. So there could be that residual resentment for her for resigning from the Academy, in which PS then, a few months later, the Academy did make her changes that she says, yes, but she was already gone. They took the award ceremony into a theater, out of a banquet hall. So I really believe, despite the controversy with the performance, despite the different way she played it, that she really should have won that Oscar for this performance.

Brad Shreve: 49:39

I would agree. I won't agree with the way she chose to play it, but I can't argue that she played it beautifully. That was just a artistic choice. You can say that's right or wrong.

Tony Maietta: 49:49

It was a strong artistic choice and, interestingly, you should say that because you know the Little Foxes, being a great play, has had many revivals. There was a revival with Elizabeth Taylor in 1981, which was very much closer to Tallulah Bankett, as you can imagine. Elizabeth Taylor, a very sensual woman, I mean, come on Elizabeth Taylor. So she went back to that model of Regina as a woman who uses her wiles, who uses her charm, who uses her lethal charm to get what she wants. And then that was in 81. And then it was very recently revived and this is so fabulous and I cannot believe I didn't see this. I kick myself all the time. Not that long ago, maybe 10, 15 years ago, I didn't look up the date it was revived for a limited run with Cynthia Nixon and Laura Linney. Oh, two actresses I love. Yeah, they played Regina and Bertie. They would rotate roles. So one night Cynthia Nixon played Regina and Laura Linney played Birdie, and then the next night Laura Linney played Regina and Cynthia Nixon played Birdie. Oh, my God, isn't that fabulous. Why didn't I see that? What is wrong with me? That would have been awesome. I mean, that's worth a plane trip to New York, definitely. And you'd have to go both nights. You would have to go both nights. That's how they got you. They got you to buy two tickets and I believe Laura Linney was nominated for a Tony. I don't think Cynthia Nixon was, but for which part? Who knows? It could have been for Birdie, it could have been for Regina.

Tony Maietta: 51:25

So anyway, yeah, that's um gosh, that's the little foxes brad. We. We talked a lot about it. I think it's uh, I think we did a good job on it. I I'm I'm very pleased with uh, with what we our take on uh on this great film but let me tell you my emotions during this film, please do.

Brad Shreve: 51:42

I thought, wow, this is a beautiful production and I'm hating every second of it. And the reason why, first of all, was, as I said, the the portrayal of the Southern family, which to me was the one thing I didn't like about being in the South, dealing with those stereotypes where I said it was all about appearances. For example, a friend of mine in North Carolina you had what are called the ABC stores, which only alcohol can be sold through a government-owned store. You cannot go to the supermarket or the pharmacy or whatever to buy alcohol, and I believe that's still true. I can't say for sure because it's been ages since I've been there. So each town has its own ABC store.

Brad Shreve: 52:18

Well, there was a little town called Liberty where a friend of mine lived and her father was well-known in that town. And there was another little town called Ramsewer. Well, all the people in Liberty would go to the Ramseur ABC store because they didn't want anybody in Liberty to see them buying alcohol. And guess what all the people in Ramseur would do? And that whole lifestyle, just anyway, drives me crazy. The other thing I didn't like and later I was proven wrong, but initially it was shown very racist that the Negro knew their place and they were happy there. That was really, I mean, okay, they all knew their place. That was a survival mode.

Brad Shreve: 52:58

You know, the blacks knew their place, but the fact that they all were portrayed as being happy, it's one of the complaints people had about Song in the South. Oh yeah, complaints people had about song in the south. Oh yeah, was then that changed?

Brad Shreve: 53:08

and you saw in the middle when they're having the conversation with the father and, um, her name, uh, xander, xander alexandra and addy and addy the, the main housekeeper, in there, and they start really talking about how the poor blacks have been taken advantage of and and because they're ignorant, they, they don't know that they're always being taken advantage of and and because they're ignorant, they, they don't know that they're always being taken advantage of because they don't have the education, etc. Then I'm like, okay, so now we're getting real here, and and so then I said I liked it a lot better. I'm like, okay, we're not doing this whole portrayal where everybody was happy, their whole world revolved around what were their masters and really still are today. Just, they have a different title, right, but they liked it there.

Brad Shreve: 53:53

But then we found out reality wasn't. That wasn't the case. Didn't get really deep into it at all, wasn't the point of this movie, but it gave me just enough that I realized, okay, that's not what they're saying here, okay. And then I did like the ending. I was expecting it to be a turn on betty dav Davis, that she would end up penniless and I would be happy. It didn't work out that way, but she did lose everything she had inside of her soul and that was very satisfying.

Tony Maietta: 54:20

Yes, it is. I think it's a satisfying ending.

Brad Shreve: 54:23

My emotions went different ways throughout this film, and all of it were necessarily not the only. The beginning was the only time I was really disappointed, but then it all changed for me.

Tony Maietta: 54:31

Yeah, I know, and I urge people who only know Betty Davis from whatever happened to baby Jane or from her later roles even all about Eve, do yourself a favor, please, please, go back into her forties work.

Tony Maietta: 54:44

Go watch now Voyager. Go watch dark victory, God. Go watch this film, Little Foxes. You know there's a reason why this woman was the greatest film actress of her generation and she was. She was. Hepburn is another ilk, but she truly was. You can't deny with the fact that she certainly was the most nominated and the most awarded. So go watch her in this phenomenal performance. I guarantee you it will stay with you for a long time.

Brad Shreve: 55:09

I will agree 100%. She was tremendous.

Tony Maietta: 55:12

Well, that's the little foxes. So I guess there's just one thing left to say, brad, and I don't want to say it. So let's not say goodbye, let's say Barbara Stanwyck that was the actress that I forgot, who was nominated that year. Barbara Stanwyck, ball of Fire. I love that movie.

Brad Shreve: 55:32

Goodbye, everybody, goodbye.