Tony Maietta 0:25

Hello , I'm film historian Tony Mae .

Brad Shreve 0:28

And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes movies .

Tony Maietta 0:32

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age . We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too .

Brad Shreve 0:38

And , of course , being the average guy , my opinions are the ones that matter .

Tony Maietta 0:43

As does your self-delusion . Welcome to Going Hollywood , Brad . I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore .

Brad Shreve 0:51

Tony , it sounds like you're trying to give an idea of what we're going to discuss today , but I'm not sure where you're going with this .

Tony Maietta 0:57

That's such a lame hint . We're talking about the Wizard of Oz . Of course we are .

Brad Shreve 1:02

You could have said I'll get you my pretty and your little dog too .

Tony Maietta 1:05

Oh , I could have said a bunch of lines , but I think the reason we're talking about this is because , first of all , there's so many things to say about the Wizard of Oz . I don't think that this is going to be our only episode . I think because there's so many things to say , but basically because I don't have the bandwidth for anything else right now . Anything else right now I am filming a documentary on Vincent Minnelli and so I'm so deeply immersed in the world of Vincent Minnelli I was like this is kind of tangential to that with Judy Garland , so I can handle a Wizard of Oz episode . I guess we'll see .

Brad Shreve 1:41

I doubt you were spending much time researching this one .

Tony Maietta 1:44

No , I did Well . Yeah , it's kind of in my DNA , like it is with so many gay men . I mean , who doesn't have the Wizard of Oz in their DNA ? Who's a gay man .

Brad Shreve 1:52

This is the point where I normally say Tony , why don't you describe what this movie is about ? But I kind of think everyone knows this one .

Tony Maietta 1:59

Yeah , I kind of think it . I mean really . I mean really , I mean there are . You know what I want to say too . There are entire podcasts just about the Wizard of Oz . So I think that you know the fact that we're doing one episode on it . There's another reason like you know , you can't cover all of it in one episode . We're going to do our best .

Brad Shreve 2:18

Yes , but I do have a description that floats around the internet that I can share .

Tony Maietta 2:23

Oh cool .

Brad Shreve 2:23

Transported to a surreal land . A young girl kills the first person she meets and then teams with three strangers and kills again . That's the story in a nutshell .

Tony Maietta 2:39

I love that . That is the best description . You know , you could just do that with all movies and just get . That's a great description . That is a great description . I mean , that's what this is about . It's not in Cold Blood , it's the Wizard of Oz . She kills and kills again . Yeah , that's amazing .

Brad Shreve 3:00

You know , for the first time , I found this movie really disturbing . I mean , it's grotesque . They're dancing and singing Ding Dong . The witch is dead . Well yeah . And then the rest of the movie . Her quest is to kill the witch .

Tony Maietta 3:12

I think that's something that you come to when you see it as an adult , after having grown up with as a child , is you realize how gruesome it can be and how it certainly is dark . But , yeah , you realize . Oh , oh , my gosh . No wonder this terrifies children . I mean , the wicked witch is truly a terrifying character . You know what I mean , and so it's , I think you come to at least I came to it as an adult the first time whenever I saw it as an adult and you kind of realize , or maybe , as you , as you learn more and more about it , you realize wow , this is some violence here is happening you know ,

Brad Shreve 3:52

He was like this is just like Grimm's fairy tales . For example , you had the lumberjack , who the witch put a spell on , so he starts chopping off his limbs and that's how you got the tin man .

Tony Maietta 4:04

Start cutting off his limbs . I know right , I mean that's kind of crazy .

Brad Shreve 4:08

Equally disturbing is when Dorothy gets the scarecrow off the post . He then , to get revenge , starts breaking the necks of the crows that have been bothering him , and it says that when he was done , he's standing in feathers and pools of blood .

Tony Maietta 4:24

So I guess it's safe to say that MGM sanitized it a bit , to say the least , to say the least for 1939 . To fit the production code requirements they could only have so many things . You know I love the Oz books . I read them all as a child .

Tony Maietta 4:40

The thing that I think is so genius about this film , this film of the Wizard of Oz , is how the screenwriters and there were a slew of screenwriters on this film how they made it so logical . Having the introduction and having the characters already implanted in Dorothy's head and then to see them manifested in their Oz characterizations I think is so genius . They had to make it a dream In the books , and I don't know if I'm telling anybody this that they don't already know if they're listening to this podcast . In the books it's not a dream . In the books Oz is a real place and she goes there in the cyclone , yes , but in the movie obviously it's a dream .

Tony Maietta 5:20

And another genius idea because at this time in Hollywood in the late 30s , there was a very , very , not bad , but they did the production of Alice in Wonderland at Paramount , which bombed and then , right on the heels of that Snow White the year before , was a huge , huge hit . So they wanted to find a way to make sure this film was palatable to audiences who wouldn't necessarily believe the fantasy , and so they made it a dream , and I think that's just one of the many brilliant changes they made to the story which make it work so well .

Brad Shreve 5:56

Yeah , I was really surprised . In the final book Dorothy's actually in her 30s and Auntie Em and Uncle Henry are living on a farm in Oz .

Tony Maietta 6:05

In Oz . They all end up moving to Oz eventually , which I don't blame them . Yeah , their farm went bankrupt , so they moved to Oz . Depending on what happens with the next election , I think I might want to move to Oz .

Brad Shreve 6:13

Oh , I am with you there more than you can even know .

Tony Maietta 6:15

You know I mean my God . But I think that that's amazing . I might even read some of these Oz books again , because there's all kinds of characters that come in as the story . You know , ozma comes in and there's a Jack Pumpkinhead and all these lands in Oz and it's just fascinating . It's kind of like a Tales of Narnia for you know the early 20th century . I love it . But I think what MGM did was brilliant , was genius with it First of all making it a musical and also making it in the frame reference , in the reference of a dream . How did you come upon the Wizard of Oz ? What's your first recollection of watching it ?

Brad Shreve 6:52

It was back before cable . So we waited for the one time a year that the Wizard of Oz was on and the one time a year that the Ten Commandments were on , and then you had to wait all year for the Charlie Brown Christmas to show one time , the Grinch to show one time .

Tony Maietta 7:07

It made it so special , didn't it ?

Brad Shreve 7:09

Yes , they were once-a-year specials and they were big events . You waited all year for them .

Tony Maietta 7:15

It was amazing . I remember , for some reason I'm having a recollection of the Wizard of Oz being around Easter , not Christmas . I think when they first started airing it in 59 on television it was Christmas time , but I have a recollection of it being and I you know this is from the late 70s of it being around Easter . So I like that because it meant summer was coming when the Wizard of Oz was on .

Brad Shreve 7:37

I don't remember .

Tony Maietta 7:39

But the Wizard of Oz was an event . I feel badly for kids . I feel bad for kids today who , I mean , they can watch it anytime they wanted to , and there was something really wonderful about waiting and it was that yearly event that every I know everyone talks about this . Everybody got in front of the TV and watched it and it was something to look forward to .

Brad Shreve 7:57

Just like they don't know what they're missing not having Saturday morning cartoons . Yeah , it was the one time a week that it was the big event .

Tony Maietta 8:04

Oh , I know right oh .

Brad Shreve 8:11

Now you can just turn on the Cartoon Network anytime you want and watch them . And it's actually a negative because it's just not the same .

Tony Maietta 8:14

It's not the same . It's not the same to have it at your disposal 24-7 .

Brad Shreve 8:18

Not at all .

Tony Maietta 8:19

I mean I love it . I just put it on a couple days ago and watched it and that's great , but I went through that whole ritual of it every year being so special . It's still special . It's still a phenomenal film . I mean just the technological aspects of it are phenomenal . There's no CGI here . I mean that cyclone is muslin , everything in the matte paintings and the dissolve , everything on that was figured out . Someone in their head figured out how to do it live .

Brad Shreve 8:51

And it works . People don't have to wear makeup nowadays . They just wait till they're done filming and change it via CGI .

Tony Maietta 8:57

Right , exactly , exactly . It's fascinating , fascinating . So you remember seeing it on TV and what were your initials ?

Brad Shreve 9:05

They were much better than when I just watched it last week .

Tony Maietta 9:08

Really .

Brad Shreve 9:09

Yes .

Tony Maietta 9:10

I think we're going to have to talk about that .

Brad Shreve 9:12

I was kind of let down because I really loved this as a kid and I didn't this time , and we'll see . As far as the flying monkeys go , I was never afraid of them growing up , but watching them now they are horrific . I can understand why the kids had nightmares .

Tony Maietta 9:26

Yeah , I know they're pretty terrifying .

Brad Shreve 9:28

Terrifying , to say the least .

Tony Maietta 9:34

That's so funny because I think one of Judy's children talks about the first time they saw the Wizard of Oz on TV and they were freaking out because Mommy was being taken away by monkeys . She's like I'm right here , darling , I'm right here .

Brad Shreve 9:41

Yeah , they saw Mommy being flown away screaming help , help , yeah yeah , exactly . It must have been terrible .

Tony Maietta 9:46

They're like flying rodents . I mean , that would freak me out .

Brad Shreve 9:50

Tony , I'm stopping our conversation real quick .

Tony Maietta 9:52

Why we're in the middle of a podcast .

Brad Shreve 9:56

But this is about the podcast and it's very important .

Tony Maietta 9:59

Okay .

Brad Shreve 9:59

Listener . Whatever app you're listening on , whether it's on the computer or on the phone , reach your finger or your mouse over . It usually says follow . Some still say subscribe and click that . And what's going to happen when they do that , tony ?

Tony Maietta 10:12

They're going to get notified when a new episode is available and they can listen to us again . You know you don't want to miss that .

Brad Shreve 10:19

No .

Tony Maietta 10:19

Can we get back to the episode that we were recording ? Of course , please . Can we get back to the episode that we were recording ? Of course , please , of course . All right , thank you . Don't forget to subscribe and follow

Brad Shreve 10:29

Let's talk about the reception the Wizard of Oz got . It was nominated for Best Picture in 1939 , and 1939 was a huge year for movies .

Tony Maietta 10:39

Yeah , 1939 was the year .

Brad Shreve 10:42

Yeah , of course we had Gone with the Wind . Mr Smith Goes to Washington . There was Stagecoach , which is the one John Wayne movie that I can think of . That I liked Love Affair , which people know from Sleeping Seattle , isn't it ?

Tony Maietta 10:56

Yeah , yes , yes , sleepless in Seattle . Yeah , I mean , there's a big one in there . You forgot , did you say Gone with the Wind ?

Brad Shreve 11:01

Yes , Did you say gone with the wind ? Yes , did you say ? Oh , you did . Okay , I missed it , missed . Gone with the wind was the big winner that year . It's the one that won , and it wasn't called best picture , then it was called outstanding production and it also did not go to the producers and went to the studio right . So selznick won , which I believe is well deserved .

Tony Maietta 11:19

well , just the scale of it and selznick pretty much had that in the bag . I mean , the scale of that film is just astounding , even when you think about this and this is also true with the Wizard of Oz movies had only learned to talk 10 years before , . So the fact that they not only had sound but they had glorious technicolor Technicolor was also something that was very rare in 1939 . I think there were only like four technicolor technicolor was also something that was very rare in 1939 . I think there were only like four technicolor cameras . Um , they were behemoths , they're huge , and at that time they thought you needed massive lighting in order for technicolor to register . So that's why whenever you see candid shots behind the scenes of wizard of oz and you can see the sets , the lights are just it's like the center , you know , it's like the , like the sun , it's so bright .

Tony Maietta 12:05

So these actors were in these huge costumes . You know Burt Lahr was in this huge Cowardly Lion thing that must have weighed 40 , 50 , 60 pounds and sweating profusely . And I think Jack Haley said Jack Haley played the Tin man in an interview in the 70s , said people always come up to him and ask him wasn't that wonderful , wasn't it fun to make that movie ? And he's like no , it wasn't fun , it was hell , it was work , it was terrible .

Brad Shreve 12:38

I heard nobody remembers that film fondly because it was so difficult .

Tony Maietta 12:40

Yeah , except for the hardships . Oh , I think they remembered it fondly . I mean , ray Bolger certainly remembered it fondly and Judy did . How could she not ? I mean , I think this is a good point to talk about some of the myths about the Wizard of Oz which everybody kind of knows . But they think they know the reality of it . And just to be clear , shirley Temple was never seriously considered to play Dorothy .

Brad Shreve 13:03

And I see it all over the place that she was

Tony Maietta 13:06

For a minute she was , but this movie was conceived by Mervyn LeRoy , who was the producer , and Arthur Freed , who was his associate producer uncredited . Arthur Freed is basically responsible for the great MGM musical period , but he was not the producer on this , he was the . He was , uh , mervyn Leroy's associate . Mervyn Leroy was brought in from Warner brothers as kind of like a replacement for Irving Thalberg , who had passed away a few years before . And if I'm getting too deeply into the weeds on this , well , that's this podcast .

Tony Maietta 13:42

Mervyn Leroy and Arthur Freed . Arthur Freed had been a fan of Judy's since she was signed to the studio in 35 . And he wanted this project for her . Now , when they got to the budget and they saw how much this was going to cost , for a minute they thought maybe we should have a big star and Shirley Temple was the biggest box office star in the world at that time . So they did go to her and she sang for them and they went and that's not going to happen . There's no way this child can handle the score . So it went right back to Judy . But that's always been kind of blown out of proportion , the whole Shirley Temple angle .

Brad Shreve 14:20

Age-wise Shirley Temple is more accurate to the book , because the book does say she was a child .

Tony Maietta 14:25

The book . Yes , she's a child If you look at the illustrations in the book . She's a little child In every other respect . Judy Garland was so perfect for this role because she had the sincerity , she had the vulnerability , she had the pathos you need someone to identify with and to feel for and that's Judy Garland to a T at this time , throughout her career actually . But we're not going to go that . But I mean , and she was so perfect for it because you feel for Dorothy , your heart breaks for Dorothy .

Tony Maietta 14:53

There's a wonderful outtake that's available of there was to be a reprise of Over the Rainbow that Dorothy sings in when she's trapped in the witch's castle right before the witch goes Annie , annie . I remember she's seeing Annie M in the crystal ball and then it turns into the witch Right before she's at . She was supposed to sing a reprise of Over the Rainbow , which is heartbreaking , and they took it out because it was so heartbreaking and so terrifying . They didn't want to have the original Over the Rainbow in it , so they weren't going to have a reprise of it . But I mean , she had such , she had such sympathy and such audience goodwill and she's just so wonderful in this film .

Brad Shreve 15:33

She did a great job and I will grant you that . But you know , they did have to tape her breasts down and we kind of had a laugh a minute . And then I thought well , you know what , If Stockard Channing can get away with playing a teenager on Grease , I can accept Judy as a little girl , Isn't that true ?

Tony Maietta 15:52

Well , how about when they did the Wiz and they made Dorothy in her early 20s ? Because it was Diana Ross In the Wiz , dorothy's a child ? Stephanie Mills was a short person and you could believe she was a young , but they had to age her up for the Wiz . I'm glad they didn't do that with the Wizard of Oz , because Dorothy makes a perfectly believable young girl of indeterminate age at that point . Young girl of indeterminate age at that point . But you know the stories about how , when they first started filming it under Richard Thorpe , who was the original director , how they had her in the blonde wig and they had her made up to look a little bit more like a Kewpie doll and she was kind of acting it that way too . She was acting it . It was very artificial . The original shots , whenever you see them , this was when Buddy Ebsen was still in the film .

Brad Shreve 16:39

The original Tin man .

Tony Maietta 16:41

The Tin man . Buddy Eben was originally the Tin man and what happened was they did about ? They did a few weeks of filming under director Richard Thorpe and then Buddy Epson . He was wearing aluminum , not aluminum paste , because that's what they replaced it with . He had aluminum dust , his makeup was aluminum dust and he was slowly breathing it into his lungs until it coated his lungs and he said you know what it's like when you go to take a breath and nothing happens . He says that's what it was . So he had to leave the picture of the poor guy and it was in an iron lung for weeks .

Tony Maietta 17:21

And they took this opportunity , when they had to shut down production , to look at the footage and realize this is totally wrong . So richard thorpe was taken off the film and george CuKor , who was about to begin , gone with the wind but had a few weeks to spare before starting , gone with the wind , came on and he's the one who took the wig off of judy garland , who told her to you know , stop the cutesy pie , acting to act like the young girl . She was to be sincere and he made some . Really , they changed the shape of the yellow bricks in the Yellow Brick Road because they looked like they were a patio and they made actual yellow bricks that look like a Yellow Brick Road .

Tony Maietta 17:51

George Cukor is one of my favorite directors and he has a lot to his credit in Hollywood history . But one of the biggest things is taking that wig off of Judy Garland and telling her to act like the young girl she is , and we have him to thank for it . And then he was pulled off and Victor Fleming finished and Victor Fleming was put on Gone with the Wind . So it's a whole convoluted thing , but I always think that's fascinating .

Brad Shreve 18:13

Yeah , I didn't know it until just recently that Victor Fleming directed .

Tony Maietta 18:16

Gone with the Wind , yeah .

Brad Shreve 18:17

And just imagine being up for Best Picture for two films at the same time .

Tony Maietta 18:21

Victor Fleming had a great career . I mean he did Red Dust . He was a good friend of Clark Gable . He had quite an illustrious career . He started in silent film as an actor . But how about that ? You have the two most mythic films in Hollywood history you have directed , and not the entire thing . That's the thing . Wizard of Oz had five directors come in . Victor Fleming did the majority of it and then when Victor Fleming went to go to Gone with the Wind , king Vidor , who was a great director in the silent era , finished it and King Vidor actually directed all of the Kansas scenes , including over the rainbow . So Victor Fleming did the Oz , mostly the Oz scenes , and then he was pulled to do gone with the wind Once George Cukor was kicked off . Gone with the wind . So it's all very interesting , all the machinations behind the scenes on whom , five directors to make this one film .

Brad Shreve 19:17

And I'm really sad for the people in Kansas to have to live in sepia tone .

Tony Maietta 19:22

Well , yeah , I mean , I always think of that whenever I'm in Kansas . I think of that , I think , wow , it's not that gray here , but it's pretty gray .

Brad Shreve 19:31

I lived in Omaha for a while and because of this movie I had to take a day trip down to Kansas just to check it out .

Tony Maietta 19:36

Yeah , it's not sepia , but you know it's interesting because L Frank Baum in the beginning of the book discusses how everything is gray in Dorothy's life . And EY Harburg and Harold Arlen , who wrote the songs for the Wizard of Oz , thought , well , this girl lives in a colorless world . What is the one thing that she might see that has color ? And they thought a rainbow . And ta-da over , the rainbow was born . So it's really kind of interesting when you think about that and that's the whole of how the film goes from sepia to color when she's in Oz and then back into sepia , and that's another technical feat . When you think about that . I mean again , movies had just learned to talk about a decade before , so now they're doing movies in which it goes from black and white to color and when you see how it happens it's really fascinating .

Tony Maietta 20:31

There's no tricks , it's just you know they had the technicolor camera . The only trick shot is of dorothy opening the door to walk into the to the set , and what they did was they actually painted that door black and white and then they put doris judy garland stand in in a black and white jumper and shot her from the back . So she's actually the one who opens the door and the camera moves in and she hands the dog to Judy Garland and Judy Garland , who's in her blue gingham dress , steps into the camera and steps into Oz . So it's genius , Genius , you know , Way of thinking that today they'd have to CGI this and they'd have to do this , and that no , MGM's like paint a set black and white , have the stand and come in . Judy substitutes Done Moving on .

Brad Shreve 21:18

That was really smart , it is so . Over the Rainbow was not a thing in the book . She just happened to land in Oz .

Tony Maietta 21:24

There were no rainbows and to my recollection it's been a while since I've read the Wonderful Wizard of Oz . But to my recollection I don't think Dorothy ever said I want to go over the rainbow . That was purely a filmmaker's conceit .

Brad Shreve 21:37

I cannot picture this movie without that song . This song is one of my favorites .

Tony Maietta 21:41

Yeah , well , we talked about this a little bit , you know before about how they wanted to cut it . When we talked about Breakfast at Tiffany's yes , it's astounding to me that anything decent gets made in Hollywood with these studio executives . I just have no clue . Tell me your version of why they wanted to cut it , because you were funny when you talked about that before .

Brad Shreve 21:58

You set me straight , but I always heard they didn't want one of their top stars singing in a barnyard .

Tony Maietta 22:02

That's a fun story .

Brad Shreve 22:04

Now that I think about it , that's kind of stupid , because they did that all the time in movies .

Tony Maietta 22:08

Somebody was horrified that an MGM star would be singing in a barnyard . So it's kind of funny when you think of it that way , though you know the reason was . They felt , for whatever reason , that over the rainbow slowed down the picture . Now I don't know how it slows down the picture . The picture has just started and it's only like 15 minutes in , if that , to sing over the rainbow , and it's also very important because it's her .

Tony Maietta 22:31

You know , in musical theater there's a , there's the , there's the conceit of a wanting song . The heroine or hero sings a song at the top of the show to express their desires . This is Dorothy's wanting song . This is what she's presenting us with her dilemma , with her dreams . How are you going to cut that out ? I mean , it's just insane , and thank God they didn't . According to Judy Garland , they wanted to cut that out . I mean it's just insane and thank God they didn't . They were going to cut it . According to Judy Garland , they wanted to cut it out in Pomona . There was a screening in Pomona and they wanted to cut it out in Pomona , but you know , saner heads prevailed . Thank God it did . I don't put a lot of stock on AFI , but wasn't it like number one on the AFI songs from movies list , when they do all those lists all the time .

Brad Shreve 23:16

That I don't know .

Tony Maietta 23:18

I think so . I think it won the number one movie song , which makes sense . I mean , come on , you know it's better than you know what else . Three Coins in a Fountain ? I don't think so . You think of the Wizard of Oz . I really think you think of Over the Rainbow . Oh yeah , I , oh yeah . How could you not ? You know , it's incredible how it happened .

Brad Shreve 23:36

It won Best Song and Best Original Score .

Tony Maietta 23:39

Yes , and Judy Garland won a special juvenile Oscar for Outstanding Juvenile Performance of the Year . It was a special award they didn't give out a lot , obviously , because there aren't that many juvenile actors in Hollywood . She won Mickey Rooney had won the year before and then I think the next one was received by Margaret O'Brien from Meet Me in St Louis . So Judy got a special Oscar and thank God she did , because it's the only Oscar she ever got , which is a tragedy and travesty . But that's another podcast .

Brad Shreve 24:09

Well , let's get to another rumor , the munchkin that hung himself ,

Tony Maietta 24:15

I know I don't know where that got started . It's just crazy .

Brad Shreve 24:19

Listener , if you watch the film , it's when they're in the apple trees and you can see it in the background . It's either an ostrich or an emu .

Tony Maietta 24:27

It's a bird . It's a bird , but somewhere along the line they got some . The rumor started that why would they leave that in ? That's just so silly , because they had a great take If a munchkin actually hung himself . They're going to leave it in the movie . It's just this insane , the things that people say and the rumors .

Tony Maietta 24:48

As long as we're on the subject of munchkins , let's talk about this , because actually Judy was responsible for a lot of these things . Because Judy was a wonderful , wonderful storyteller , a wonderful raconteur and she would get on talk shows later in her life , in the 60s , and tell hysterical stories about her adventures . She had quite a few adventures and she , you know , near the end of her life in particular , she would get more and more unfiltered and she tells a wonderful story about the munchkins . You know being ra be more and more unfiltered and she tells a wonderful story about the munchkins you know have being raucous and you know getting drunk and because Jack Parr , I think , asked her , you know they were little people and she says they were drunks , you know . And she talks about having to pick them up one by one in butterfly nets and bring them to the set and how they were always having drunken revelries and orgies , and so that's you know .

Brad Shreve 25:37

The Culver Hotel is still there . I used to work nearby and passed it on my lunch walks , and the hotel is walking distance from where the MGM lot was , and that lot was bought by Sony Studios . So that's what's there now .

Tony Maietta 25:49

Yes .

Brad Shreve 25:49

And the Culver Hotel is where they put up the people who played the munchkins and Judy said there were hundreds of them . They put them all in one hotel . They got smashed every night and the police would pick them up in butterfly nets .

Tony Maietta 26:04

Yes , that's so funny . No , but uh , in listener , if you get a chance to go to youtube and look up judy garland jack parr show 1967 , because the way judy tells it is so hysterically funny and they , you know , never let the truth get in the way of a good story . And it's such an entertaining story . But , yeah , that you know thanks to her she liked to embellish . God bless her and we're all the more entertained for it . But they was such a legend that they made a film of it , remember . But it was such a legend that they made a film of it . Remember , there was a horrible film called Under the Rainbow with Chevy Chase and Carrie Fisher God awful . And it was all about the crazy rumored goings on making Wizard of Oz , all of it , which was pretty much not true , you know . I mean , of course I'm sure they had parties , but I don't think they weren't drunken , they weren't picking them up in butterfly of nets , as Junie says . So it's kind of crazy .

Brad Shreve 27:00

Now I've read interviews with some of the other munchkins later in life and they said , yes , there were some that got drunk regularly . But I wonder why some others got on that rumor bandwagon .

Tony Maietta 27:11

Because it's a good story .

Brad Shreve 27:13

Producer Mervyn LeRoy said that they had sex orgies in the hotel and they had to have police on every floor .

Tony Maietta 27:21

That's very funny . Mervyn LeRoy said that . Really , that's so funny . What source are you citing there , Brad TMZ ?

Brad Shreve 27:31

No , don't ever accuse me of quoting TMZ . There were several sources , including Vanity Fair .

Tony Maietta 27:37

Well , here's the thing Now . Imagine if you will . Imagine if you will . You're a little person . You're , you know and you are , have never seen anyone who looks like you . It's kind of like a gay man coming into West Hollywood for the first time . If you're living somewhere in the Midwest and you don't know , you've never seen anyone else like you . If you're living somewhere in the Midwest and you don't know , you've never seen anyone else like you , and then you get to this place , this magical place called Hollywood , and suddenly you're surrounded by people who are exactly like you . Can you imagine ? I think I go a little crazy too , you know . In fact I did a few times . So there you go .

Brad Shreve 28:11

It was during the Depression , and that was a time when little people still were ostracized and had a hard time finding jobs .

Tony Maietta 28:17

Yeah .

Brad Shreve 28:18

People accused PT Barnum of exploiting people at that time , which he did , but he also gave them jobs when no one else would . So in this movie can it be argued that they exploited people ? Yes , I think they did .

Tony Maietta 28:29

Right .

Brad Shreve 28:30

But I've read interviews and these folks were happy that they had jobs .

Tony Maietta 28:41

Well , a large majority of them were this group called the Singer Midgets , who did exactly what you said , you know , who were basically in fairs and circuses and things like that . But they recruited . There were plenty of you know non-actors or non-performers in this group and there were very young little people mixed in with older people , people mixed in with older people . So some of the people who survived , who were interviewed in later documentaries , were very young , obviously in 1939 , that they could be alive in 1989 for the 50th and be interviewed . But it's really fascinating . I mean I can imagine they wouldn't go crazy . It makes perfect sense to me that they would go crazy .

Brad Shreve 29:12

Some have said that they couldn't believe they were in Hollywood . It was like a dream come true , right , some of them said that they couldn't believe they were in Hollywood . It was like a dream come true , right as far as that story goes . Sidney Luft , judy's third husband I presume you read his book , right ? Yes , in the memoir he says they made Judy's life miserable by putting their hands under her dress .

Tony Maietta 29:28

Yeah , there's no—that's Sid Luft .

Tony Maietta 29:33

And they thought they could get away with anything because they were so small . I'm sure Judy made comments at one point and then he carried that on . I mean , I think that , sid Luft , it's an interesting book . I don't you have to take it with a grain of salt , as you do with most biographies of Judy Garland . Most of them are the writer's agenda and so many of them , so many of the things they purport are not true and have been proven to be not true . And I think the thing with the munchkins is some embellishment . I'm sure Judy just talks about one munchkin asking her out for dinner and she said she couldn't , you know , but she didn't want to say I can't because you're a midget . She said you know , but she said her mother wouldn't like it , she was a young girl . So I that's another one of those myths . You know the myths about the munchkins which just people perpetuate because you know it shines a light on them . I guess it makes them seem important .

Brad Shreve 30:23

He claimed . When she said my mother wouldn't like it , he said your mom could join us . Bring your ma too , yeah bring her along , and it's probably true that one or two guys were creepy and of course they have to give it the whole . Blanket them on .

Tony Maietta 30:39

but it makes a more entertaining story , doesn't it ? You know ? And people love that's , you know . Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story , and it's , it's the thing , you know . One of the other myths about the wizard of oz , which I always thought is mind-blowing , is that it wasn't a success when it first was released , and that's's absolutely not true Now . It had a huge budget , so it didn't make back its money the first time . However , it was still an incredibly successful film and it did make back its money on its reissue in the 40s . So at no point in time was the Wizard of Oz ever considered a flop or a bomb or any of that other malarkey that people say about the Wizard of Oz . It was always an event , it was always a hit , from the very very moment it premiered in 1939 . It was also overshadowed by Gone with the Wind . So there you go .

Brad Shreve 31:28

Gone with the Wind , blew it away .

Tony Maietta 31:30

Well , gone with the Wind blew everything away . I mean , that's just the reality of it . And they both have lasted . Isn't it amazing these two films from 1939 . These films are still iconic films . They're still being shown . They're still events . I love going to a film festival to see the Wizard of Oz on a big screen , because there's nothing like it . There's nothing like seeing Gone with the Wind on a big screen . I think we talked about that one time . Seeing it with an audience Wizard of Oz is what I'm talking about . Seeing it with an audience is so moving and the humor is so . Bert Lahr with an audience oh my god , there's just nothing like that .

Brad Shreve 32:13

I used to live 80 miles east of San Francisco and one of my regrets is a buddy of mine went to the Wizard of Oz sing-along at the Castro Theater . He said it was amazing and so much fun and , of course , being in the Castro , everybody had a big laugh when the cowardly lions fell down and his legs were in the air . Yeah , and you know , he did talk about being a dandelion , with the flit of the rich , that's stupid .

Tony Maietta 32:34

That's very funny . No , it's , it's , it's wonderful and it's just genius and they crafted that character . If you've ever seen a , well here's something to do catch a bertlar film . That's not the wizard of oz , it's the same character . This is . This is who bertlar did , but to see him do the and not be in the lion outfit is really kind of startling . You're like , wait a minute , but you're the lion . You know , definitely his claim to fame , but that's . That's such an incredible , such a genius performance .

Brad Shreve 33:06

I don't understand why he wasn't nominated for best supporting actor because it's a genius performance I must say his song I am the king of the forest is my least favorite song in the whole movie .

Tony Maietta 33:16

Yeah .

Brad Shreve 33:19

They took out the song Jitterbug and if you go to YouTube and look up Wizard of Oz the Jitterbug , you'll see why they took it out . It was a good decision .

Tony Maietta 33:26

Yeah , I actually enjoy King of the Forest . You have to give Burt Lahr a song because he was a Broadway star . He was a name back then . So you have to give him a song a bit . And if you notice when they first meet him , his If I Only had the Noive is much shorter than If I Only had a Heart and If I Only had a Brain , shorter than if I only had a heart and if I only had a brain , because they knew he would have this kind of piece de resistance if I were the king of the forest . And he had to have something to do while they were waiting to go see the wizard . So they had this . They had to wait to go , you know , find out if they could go see the wizard . So they had to give . Something had to happen . So they gave Bert Laura a song .

Brad Shreve 34:06

I did notice , other than when they introduced themselves , he was the only one that had a solo , other than Judy . I didn't like the song , but I can't argue that did show the range in his voice . I just wasn't fond of it .

Tony Maietta 34:18

I think it's a genius song . I don't know the rhyme , the lyrics of EY Harburg , who wrote the lyrics , did these rhymes which are just so you know , I could rat , I could rattle every riddle for any individual . I mean , the way he changed words and molded words to fit the rhymes is so smart and funny and whimsical . You know , sometimes when people do that it doesn't work , but he did it in a way which was so ironic and so whimsical that you know the naive . I mean just knowing how Burt Lahr spoke and then caressing the rhyme in the song to fit the way he spoke , to fit his dialect , is just one of the many genius things about this film which I love . You know what I mean .

Tony Maietta 35:03

It's not like you know , somebody else is going out there . Have you ever gone to a concert and Tony Bennett sang ? If I Only had the Nerve , I don't think so . But he wrote it for the character and they knew Burt Lahr was going to be this character . So they wrote it in his speech and that's why it's so funny , because you've got this lion , this cowardly lion , from New York . This is one of the things I didn't appreciate until I was older , of course , and I could get the humor and I could understand oh , this is a cowardly lion from the Bronx . Okay , I get it and it's just so funny . I find it such a smart , smart movie in so many ways .

Brad Shreve 35:37

Give us another rumor that you can dispute .

Tony Maietta 35:40

There's a myth out there that nobody got along when they were making it , that it was just hell on earth to make and as difficult as it was for the Jack Haley's and the Ray Bolgers because of their costumes , there wasn't . None of that was true . Everybody adored Judy Garland . There was no animosity , she didn't . You know . She also liked to tell a story , a very funny story again on Jack Parr , about being shut out by the three of them and the director stopping and say you three dirty hams , let that little girl in there , because she said they would shut her out when they were doing the Yellow Brick Road dance . And that's not true . I mean , you can see , the Yellow Brick Road is very narrow . So , yeah , there were probably moments when one of them had to squish over a little bit , but nobody was trying to upstage anybody , nobody was trying to push anybody else out . They all adored her . She adored them . She adored them . She adored them for the rest of her life . There's another myth that you know that they didn't , that they got later on . There was animosity between . No , she adored them all . She had Ray Bolger on her TV show . You could see very clearly the love between them and they still shared . You know Jack Haley . She adored Jack Haley . Jack Haley Jr married her daughter . He's one of Liza Minnelli's husbands . He produced that's Entertainment . So there's a real connection there .

Tony Maietta 36:56

And also another myth is that she ever had anything negative about Over the Rainbow . She honored Over the Rainbow so much her entire life . They wanted her to sing it to close out her television show in the 60s every week and she said no , that song is too special to close every episode of a TV show . She said I don't want anyone to lose whatever special feeling they have for Over the Rainbow by doing it every week . So she only sang it once on our TV show and that was at Christmas time and it made it all the more special . She honored that song and she honored what people felt about that song .

Brad Shreve 37:34

I believe it was that song , probably more than the movie itself , that made her a big star .

Tony Maietta 37:39

Oh , absolutely . I mean , talk about the perfect . I don't think there's ever been a better match of actor or singer with song . I mean , I don't care how many people sing over the rainbow , it will always be hers . That's just the way it is . You just can't . You'll never get anybody singing it better . Some people added verse and some people , you know , speed it up and some people slow it down . They can sing it , but it'll still be hers , nobody else's .

Brad Shreve 38:06

Every time I hear her sing it , it's magical .

Tony Maietta 38:09

And she's . She changed way . She sang it too , which is really I find fascinating . If you listen to it in the Wizard of Oz and then you hear her sing it in the mid-40s , it's much different . And then , of course , when she did it in her concerts in the 50s and 60s , it's just a devastating song . It's so , oh , it's emotionally gut-wrenching , oh , it's emotionally gut-wrenching . And then you remember how she sang it in the Wizard of Oz , this young , wistful longing that Dorothy had for a different life .

Brad Shreve 38:38

It's really wonderful , and that is something I never caught before you talked about . She sang that song because she's looking for something better when that movie opens up . Auntie Em is a royal bitch . I'm like why is she missing this woman ? I mean , I get it , but I think she played a little heavy .

Tony Maietta 38:56

Well , I think they were . Yeah , they were trying to illustrate how very I mean , this was a depression , how very desperate these people were . People , you know , people were losing their farms and the drought you know , all that stuff is so depressing . It's interesting that he wrote the Wizard of Oz in 1900 . But in 1939 , the situation , you know , in states like Kansas , in the Dust Bowl , was even more dire . So it's kind of it really plays into that kind of desperation of we're going to lose everything here . And you see why Dorothy is so unhappy now she wants to escape , you know , because it's not much of a life for a young girl .

Brad Shreve 39:33

If you pay attention , you can see that things aren't going well that day and she's frustrated and she is trying to keep things together .

Tony Maietta 39:39

She's a young kid . She wants you know she's getting people's hair .

Brad Shreve 39:42

Auntie Em , I mean .

Tony Maietta 39:44

Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , she will . Yeah , she's definitely it's not . She's not having a good day . And then to have this tornado come and , you know , whisk her niece away in the house . Not a Annie M is not Annie M's very bad day . The Wizard of Oz , aka Annie M's very bad day .

Tony Maietta 40:03

But you know , then it ends up being an incredible dream and there's no place like home , which is pretty astounding . The way it wraps up , it makes it's just . I love the logic of it , the logic of the story just wrapping . Having it bookended by the Kansas scenes is just . It's so much more impactful than if it had been written , if it had been filmed as it was written , as something that really happened . And how about the PS , the resistance that she could have gone home anytime she wanted . All she had to do was click her heels three times . You know there's a very funny it's not Saturday Night Live , it's MADtv , I think where they did the Wizard of Oz .

Tony Maietta 40:42

Glinda says that to Dorothy and whoever played Dorothy was just like , are you kidding me ? And she attacks Glinda and you're kind of like that . You're like , wait a minute , I could have left any time and you made me go through all this and I had the power the entire time . It's crazy , but it factors into the theme of that movie , which is they're all looking for something to make them feel , quote , unquote , whole , and they have it the entire time . The scarecrow is always getting them out of situations . But , yes , he says he doesn't have a brain . The tinwoodman needs a heart , but he's the most emotional and the most sentimental . The lion is quite brave in many of these instances . And Dorothy says at the end of the movie you know , if I ever go looking for my heart's desire , I better not look any further than my own backyard . That's what she's saying . And she said your home is inside you . You've always had it , You've always been there . So I think that's another brilliant thing about the film .

Brad Shreve 41:38

Let's get to something that really bugs me . Her saying to the scarecrow I'm going to miss you most of all drives me nuts .

Tony Maietta 41:44

I've always wondered about that .

Brad Shreve 41:45

Well , I'm sorry , it's just rude .

Tony Maietta 41:48

You know , I did find one source , one which claimed that when the script was first being developed and remember , there were more than 12 screenwriters who worked on this film .

Brad Shreve 42:00

Aren't there normally like three Twelve At most Exactly .

Tony Maietta 42:03

Well , this film also had four directors . I think I said five earlier and I can't count Four directors and one of these early versions . Once they realized that Dorothy was going to be an adolescent girl , ie Judy Garland , there was a subplot in which she had a crush on Hunk . You know Ray Bolger's Kansas character , which I love that name , you know . But they eliminated it , you know . But that was only . That was only one , only one source . So that's another one of these myths . Maybe that is true , maybe it's not true . I think she says it because , you know , he's her oldest friend in Oz . She's known him the longest and she was pretty scared when she first got to Oz . So it kind of makes sense that she would miss him most of all .

Brad Shreve 42:49

And we really aren't given a passage of time . I mean it looks like it's all in a day or two , but it could be months . For all we know . Yes , Could be , Time could be different . Somewhere between Munchkinland and Oz . They've had to take a nap somewhere . We never saw that .

Tony Maietta 43:06

Who knows , time could be different in Oz . You never know how long they were asleep with those poppies , you never know . But did you ever notice , too , that scene at the end where she's getting ready to leave ? She's in the balloon with the wizard and they're all holding the rope , the balloon down , they're saying their goodbyes and the wizard is just about to leave and then toto jumps out of dorothy's arms towards to get that cat . Yeah , that's there . Did you ever ? Did you ever notice the tin man loosening the rope ? Did he walks around and loosens the rope while they're supposed to be holding it down I have .

Brad Shreve 43:40

I can never remember when it's on whether it's the tin man or the scarecrow , but I only I have seen them like what ?

Tony Maietta 43:46

yeah , I know it's like why didn't they cut and say , hey , jack , hayley Haley , we can see you do that . What are you doing ? I mean , it's just another one of the mysteries of this movie .

Brad Shreve 43:58

Was it on purpose or not ?

Tony Maietta 44:01

Yes , exactly , that goes right back into the jitterbug . You mentioned the jitterbug earlier . Set something on their head to take the bite out of them . You know that's the jitterbug .

Brad Shreve 44:11

Yeah , exactly , and they cut that all out so that one line by itself has no frame of reference . It's just this odd line .

Tony Maietta 44:17

It makes no sense . So that's why , when you talk about the , I think I'll miss you most of all . Well , if there had been a scene filmed that established that she had a crush on him and it was cut , it makes sense that that line would still be in there . But if they never filmed it , why is that line in there ?

Brad Shreve 44:31

They never changed the script .

Tony Maietta 44:33

Crazy , it's crazy . Nobody noticed .

Brad Shreve 44:36

Yeah , it's like wait a minute , duh . The other was Auntie Emma saying something to Jack Haley's character about you were tinkering on machines or something like that .

Tony Maietta 44:46

Yes , he was . Yes , he was creating a machine which was going to deneutralize tornadoes , that was cut . So when she but they left that line in , so that was actually in the in the script , and I think that's like wow , that's kind of interesting , because then he goes , someday they're going to erect a statute of me in this town and , um , you know , don't start posing for it now . So the the thing about the economy of that is is that you get just enough , but they did leave some things in where you're like , oh , what does that mean ? Well , what does that mean ? Well , usually it refers to something that was cut .

Brad Shreve 45:19

Yeah , why on earth would that guy say that ?

Tony Maietta 45:21

Well , but it also . It also fits him as the Tim Woodsman .

Brad Shreve 45:24

Yeah , I never thought about that line before until I heard they cut it out of the scene .

Tony Maietta 45:27

Exactly , exactly , same . Yeah , so they weren't perfect , but you only notice these things after watching the movie a million times . These movies were not designed to be watched over and over like we watch them today , you know . So that's another thing too , and they also weren't meant to be seen in ultra HD and 4K , and so we see all these things that they never thought we would see , because they were watching you and you're watching them on film . You can't see them . So it's interesting we're noticing all these things now that nobody ever would have noticed in 1939

Brad Shreve 45:59

They thought , well , who cares ? What happened in season 2 , this is going to happen in season 5 . They don't match , but nobody will remember

Tony Maietta 46:06

Watch the length of Judy Garland's braids in the scarecrow . They go up and they go down . They go up and that's because you know they were retakes and somebody was asleep with the switch and didn't realize how long her braids had been when they first shot it . So yeah , those are just things you have to take with a grain of salt in every film you're going to find that we're just aware of it now , because we can watch them over and over and over again .

Tony Maietta 46:30

Well , I think that you know , I think that we covered a lot of ground about the wizard of oz . I mean , there's so much more to talk about because , like I said , there are entire shows that are dedicated to the wizard of oz . But I think I think we did a pretty good overview of it for us .

Brad Shreve 46:44

except I gotta be honest , I was surprised , I didn't like it You

Tony Maietta 46:49

no , like it . You don't like was it a boss ? No , not at all . You don't like what ?

Brad Shreve 46:51

There are great , great things about this film . Like every time they skipped down the road , I was amazed at the sets . They were huge and I kept saying they're going to have to stop skipping soon because they're going to hit a wall .

Tony Maietta 47:02

Okay , I think you've buried the lead here , so you don't like this movie .

Brad Shreve 47:07

No , judy did great , but I did not like this film at all . I didn't like the munchkins . They were creepy . Now , I know , at that time the artwork was different . They had what we call grotesque style , but they creeped me out and I was put off by them dancing and singing that the witch was dead . I thought that was grotesque . And then her shoes curled and her legs curl up . That was gross .

Tony Maietta 47:30

Well , hello , she was a dictator , let me tell you . So they're going to celebrate when she dies .

Brad Shreve 47:37

Okay , Dorothy and the Tower . Now , Judy did a great job . You could feel Dorothy's pain . You could see Dorothy's pain . All of this is while she's waiting for the sand to go down in the hourglass , which is my problem . Why did the witch do that ? It's like a Bond villain . Just kill her .

Tony Maietta 47:56

Because she wants to torture her . It's like the last to die will watch the first three go before her . I mean , she's a witch . She's a bad witch . Bad witches are ugly . She's a bad witch . Margaret Hamilton tells a very funny story about getting the offer to do the Wizard of Oz and she goes oh gosh , I've loved those stories my whole life . What part ? And her agent goes well , the witch , what else ? So that pretty much says it right there .

Brad Shreve 48:20

And I don't think people give her enough credit as a Elmyra Gulch and as the witch . She did a great job .

Tony Maietta 48:26

She is wonderful and she wasn't the first choice . They were going to go with a beautiful witch , with an actress named gail sondergaard who had just won an oscar the year before because of snow white's beautiful witch . So they want beautiful queen witch , whatever . So they thought we're going to go this route . But they're like no , the witch has to be . A child's witch is ugly and scary and that's why they went . I mean , they made margaret hamilton much . Margaret hamilton was not an ugly woman , but they obviously made her look like a witch .

Brad Shreve 48:59

okay , let me cover my ass here a little bit , though it's probably not going to be as much as people want . Okay , obviously I'm not going to remember it as well as I did as a kid . That's to be expected . But the script , everything . I was just really let down . And there's so many great things I can say about this movie , but in the end I was bored .

Tony Maietta 49:17

Alright , you're going to get a pass on this . There are people who are just screaming now .

Brad Shreve 49:23

I'm absolutely certain of it . I am going to get hate emails .

Tony Maietta 49:26

Don't do that , people , we'll agree to disagree .

Brad Shreve 49:29

No , no , I want to hear your opinions , but yeah , I think we covered it all , at least enough for today .

Tony Maietta 49:34

And we did . We'll put a pin in it . Maybe we'll come watch the Wizard of Oz again and maybe your opinion will change next time , Maybe , Maybe . Thanks for listening everybody .

Brad Shreve 49:43

Bye-bye . Do you enjoy going to Hollywood ? Well , of course you do , and Tony and I would like you to do something for us and , more important , for other podcast listeners out there . Go to Apple Podcasts , itunes , spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts , and rate and review this show . A five-star would be especially nice . That way , when others are looking for a new show , they'll see ours and see those reviews and they will stop and listen and boy , that will make their day . It will be much appreciated . Thank you for being with us .